Once again, Soccer Dad, I respect your writing, but I really disagree with what you're saying. The nut of it comes down to what you wrote here:
Its idiotic to say that the easy access to guns plays no role, just as it would be idiotic to say that is the only reason.

No, it is not idiotic to say easy access to guns is the only reason we keep having these VT-style mass murders and the incredibly high incidence of gun violence and murders.

In fact, it IS practically the ONLY reason. Period.

Go try to get a handgun in Canada. Good luck with that. Same with England. The others I am not familiar with, but I imagine it's about the same.

Easy access to handguns is the only reason we see such a high rate of murder, suicide and these mass murders. Correlation is not causation, but it sure is a hint. The statistical correlations are so undeniably strong it's beyond ridiculous to even question it.

You, without even realizing it, have been affected by NRA talking points, thinking that easy access to handguns is not the cause of this death and mayhem we live with in the U.S. You know what? It's bullshit.

Take away the handguns, all this violence disappears. Take away the ability to buy handguns, within 10 years our stats would drop down with the rest of those countries.

I agree with brian bell on this one--the harder it is for crazy people to act on impulse, well, the harder it is for crazy people to act on impulse.That is logic as I know and use it. But I do think that soccerdad has an important point--and the NRA and the rise of a particular kind of american right wing christian nuttiness is part of that too. Because the lunatics are running the asylum. The literally don't think there is anything wrong with society allowing individuals to purchase and store and use massive amounts of fire power in random vicious incidents. The christianists because it confirms their end time beliefs, or they secretly sympathize with the hate on "liberal college students" or it demonstrates to them the necessity for further submission to god. The NRA because its money in their pockets to deep defending the absurd failure of our gun laws. The politicians on both sides who either believe in the primacy of the hate groups who sponsor weak gun legislation or who are too afraid of the NRA to stand up to them. That is enervating. Its sucking the life out of my general can do optimism about political things because i know that even more enduring than hatred, selfishness, and jingoistic nationalistic dehumanization of others is the enduring craziness of the american gun loving right wing.

aimai

Take away the guns he would have made a bomb. People living in a violent society will find a way to kill other people. I'm all for gun control but I don't believe its the answer to everything.

god, sorry for all the typos. too many to correct.

aimai

Most everybody has something they find so fearsome that their reaction is to ban it. The current administration supports banning sex without a currently valid marriage. We have a "war" on altering consciousness with any but a few select chemicals. But, it is clear that people do what they want to do. No matter what the social, health and legal consequences may be, sex remains wildly popular, as do a variety of recreational substances.

Banning weapons is as successful as banning alcohol. There are too many existing weapons. New York has had one of the most stringent handgun laws in the nation for almost a century. But, there are more than 2,000,000 illegal handguns in NYC now, more than one for each four residents.

Handguns and ammunition are too easy to make in basement shops. Any self taught home machinist can make a weapon of a quality sufficient for criminal purposes. A decent amateur machinist can well produce a competition level weapon.

Would the world be a better place without irresponsible sex, handguns, long guns, and alcohol? Possibly. Can these lofty goals be achieved? Not without a species wide genetic re- engineering of the human brain.

Why is violence so high in the US and so low in the other countries you referenced in the chart? I believe it is because we are an "independent" country which leads to "isolation." It's every man or woman for themself and that leads to people with no other resources than bullets to try to get their piece of the pie. The other countries in the chart have serious social programs to help and support their people. Here we demonize mythical "welfare queens" and act as though we are being stolen from when we are asked to pay our fair share of the common area costs associated with running a country.

I hate to see the gun laws debate again! It's a no win topic from both sides.

Look more to gun glorification. From 1776; to Daniel Boone; to Davy Crockett; to Jesse James; Waytt Earp; Bonnie & Clyde; John Wayne or any other "hero". What do they have or carry? A gun. What do all little boys get for Christmas? A gun, or today a laser weapon. Yes some boys get a bow and arrow; but they wanted a Daisy Red Rider BB Gun.

Until you change that part of the culture..............well it is not going to happen; not in my or your lifetime. So all talk or gnashing of teeth is futile.

Soccerdad, I completely agree with your post. It is a combination of many factors that have given us the title as one of the most violent societies.

SD wrote: Take away the guns he would have made a bomb.

I think that makes the point that the solution is not just gun control. Mass murder, serial killing has become a ubiquitous cultural meme in America.

Part of the strength and staying power of that meme is the sensational and disproportionate media attention that follows.

I saw a few minutes of Brian Williams "newscast" with a collage of the college student photos fading on and off screen. Like some kind of creepy Hallmark journalism, good production values and nothing else of merit. It was all very creepy.

There was a lot of death and destruction around the world this week. My heart goes out to all the folks who are grieving. I understand that simple inevitable human experience.

I have refused to read or watch the VA coverage. It's not necessary. The coverage is obscene.

As the parent of an 18 year old who has been hospitalized several times with emotional problems, i believ i can speak with some authority.
I removed all my firearms from the house about a year ago as a safety measure. He was misdiagnosed as depressed and given ssri's to improve his depression. after three months, he was worse, so they increased the dosage. By this time he had started hiding weapons (swords) in his room, and was always hiding pellet guns, he wore black all the time, was facsinated with the military and violent movies and video games. We sold all the video games, and removed very weapon -- toy or not-- from the house.

He got worse. We would find pictures of him posing with his fake guns, and he was constantly writing on his arms in read and black ink. Is this sounding familiar? We committed him once for several days prior to his 18th birthday, and had a momentary improvement. His grades dropped upon taking the ssri's from B's and C's to D'd and F's. After his girlfirend dropped him, he became suicidal, and raged in a homocidal fashion. We had to call the police after he tried to steal one of my cars. The next day we convinced him to voluntarily commit himself in the hospital. I then convinced the Psychiatrist to take him off of ssri's and leave him on the mood stableizer. It the past week, i have seen the son i lost for nearly two years.

We rely on ssri's to fix every problem, and we fail to recognize that they can trigger a violent mania among certain people who are bipolar.

As an aside, i am a criminal defense attorney and fully one half of all the murderers i have represented would fit within the description of bipolar mania. It is a dangerous disorder. Many of the victms are beaten to death, and rarely is there a firearm involved. I usually only see guns in gang related shootings, and almost of those guns are stolen.

Alexander Cockburn at Counterpunch points out a list of "school shooters" were all on some form of prescription medication primarily antidepressants

http://counterpunch.org/cockburn04212007.html

funny, isnt it, that legal drugs are so prevalent during the "war on drugs" and somehow we are also always at war on something or someone

i think the recent SCOTUS decision on abortion constitutes a war on women / we just cant take responsibility for our lives nor can doctors be trusted to make appropriate medical decisions according to those men in black robes

sorry for the semi-OT

Ltgesq

Excellent points
Hope your son is doing better.

_________________

Its also important to look at the suicide rates. It points to issues besides the access to guns. Gun control is simply not enough.

IT is NOT the VT killings. It is the Va Tech Killings.

VT = Vermont

Do you mind?

You can distill everything you said to "conflict over limited resources."

We're seeing the lofty goals of the "conservatives" and their lunatic republi-con supporters playing-out before our eyes.

Smoking is increasing (my bro, former exec for Phillip Morris, says they love economic strife in the United States because it makes smoking surge). Drinking is up. Drug use is up. Homelessness among families with children doubled. Shootings are way up. Bank robberies are up. Loan defaults are up. And the stock market is doing very well.

It all points to extreme economic inequality, and this is lubricated by easy ways to kill each other.

As the infrastucture crumbles, the routes to change based purely in economic terms becoming more separated from those who need them, and a society flooded with extrreme hate messages, we can only expect more death and destruction at our own hands. There is an evil empire. It is us.

Ltgesq, thank you for your personal story. Your son got help, although he was misdiagnosed as depressed, when it fact, he was/is bipolar. Thank God you are parents who faced the fact that your son was in need of help, knew what to do, and how to get help.

Too many children go undiagnosed or incorrectly disagnosed. Many parents refuse to admit their children have problems, until it is too late. In my own family, a nephew never received help as a young child because of the belief that "you don't air your dirty laundry." A Federal Judge here in St. Louis, who refused to admit his son had problems, until his son drove his date into his father's driveway and chopped her head off. As someone who knew the Federal Judge and his son, I can assure you that the signs had been there for years that this child needed help, but his father's ego would not allow such help.

My point is that many families do not know how to get help, won't admit their children need help, or can't afford help. We look to blame others, when many times the problem was never addressed within the family unit from the very beginning.

Or is it that only American deaths count?

Well, yes, that's pretty the whole story. And the importance of American deaths correlates with the incomes and ethnicity of the victims.

"And the stock market is doing very well."

That Muckdog's cue to tell us how wonderful everything is in America.

Phidipides, good post.

"Or is it that only American deaths count?"

James E. Powell, only if you are a rich white blond girl.

If only American deaths counted for Americans, there wouldn't be such a concerted effort to hide the deaths abroad from Americans. You see, your masters do believe in your basic humanity, and this is the backhanded compliment they pay to it.

As a troll pointed out yesterday, the biggest school child disaster was in Bath, Mich. in 1927 by Kehoe whose farm was being forclosed.

He blew up his farm, the school, and used his Ford pickup as a suicide bomb(that part really pissed me off). No handguns or video games involved. Just a violent defective human brain and lots of Pulitzer Prize sticks.

I want to keep my guns for when the government of the godbots comes for me, and when we need them to pry misused power from their cold dead hands.

I was discussing the killings at Virginia Tech with my wife who feels very threatened by them, and she feels threatened because of the prevailing attitude Americans have toward guns. She is not a native of the US, and was raised in a nation that does not allow gun ownership without some serious restrictions on the Owner and the gun.

As we talked, I realized there is a way to regulate guns and owners. In the same way we expect auto drivers to demonstrate competence and now citizenship or legal status in the country, we should require it nationally. But further, in the same way we require automobile drivers to register their cars and have proper insurance to against the liabilities that naturally arise out of driving a vehicle, we should also require firearms owners to take out liability and damage insurance on every weapon they buy. If that weapon ends up harming or damaging person or property, the insurance should pay off the claimant. I am confident the actuaries of the world would find representative values (as they seem to pride themselves at valuing everything in dollar-per-incident terms).

I don't think that is too much to ask.

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If only American deaths counted for Americans, there wouldn't be such a concerted effort to hide the deaths abroad from Americans.

sagesource,

There is something to what you say and I am guilty of overstatement.

But it seems to me that the American public willingly, and in some cases purposefully, cooperates in the suppression of information about the deaths of non-Americans, and the disregard of the significance of those deaths.

To make your case you need to include all non-natural deaths. Not far from where I live a man killed his girlfriend by running her over with his car. Not a pretty picture a woman trying to dodge a car is it? But of course men have been harming women for ever. This group included young men as well as young women and that matters more than all the abused women in the world.

I am not on your side in this but I would like to see if there is a case there. Looking at firearms alone is not a proof.

What about bombs? I understand they are quite easy to make. What makes you think this kid couldn't have used that method if guns were not available?

What about other types of violence. Does it go up or does all violence go down without guns?

And if you take away guns you are going to have to take away all of them. That means hunting weapons also. They can hunt with bow and arrows, of course, which are much technologically improved and very deadly also. Do you take those away?

Somehow I don't think taking away my handgun makes me more safe. In fact it makes me less safe. At least now someone(s) breaking into my home cannot be sure whether I have a weapon or not. In your world they will know THEY are safe.

Answer to Benbraino from my "bible":

"So the writer who breeds more words than he needs, is making a chore for the reader who reads."
Dr. Seuss

And let's not forget the ever applicable:

"I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful, one hundred percent."
Dr. Seuss

It all points to extreme economic inequality

No it's exactly the opposite, my friend. It all points to economic affluence. When folks no longer have to struggle for their basic needs, they drift to more nefarious thoughts. An idle mind is the Devil's playground.

I blogged about VA Tech this morning in my Sunday Sermon entry. You don't have to visit my blog, but the summary is that we can't legislate against crazy. Passing yet another gun law won't do it. Building barricades around shopping malls, schools, gas stations, churches, grocery stores won't do it. Stationing national guard troops at every intersection won't do it. Crazy will find a way.

The Fox business block on Saturday had companies that provide security for schools. It's expensive. I think it'd be ineffective. But that stock is probably zooming. Sometimes in our reactive culture the thought is that we have to do something, anything, to look like we're trying to find a quick fix. But is there a quick fix?

It's extremely sad. It's extremely horrific. It's terrible. I believe the only thing we can do is be more personally involved with each other. Even then, crazy happens.

Muck

Shallow even for you. But what to expect from one of the up is down, right is wrong, weakness is strength crowd.

Orwell was a freakin genuis

I just saw an interesting story about the Va Tech shootings on CNN while I was at the gym.

- Drinking by American college students results in 1,400 student deaths and 70,000 cases of sexual assault each year.

- Approximately 1,100 college students commit suicide each year.

They also mentioned drug related deaths on college campuses, both prescription and non-prescription, but I can't find the stats.

Food for thought, though.

"No it's exactly the opposite, my friend. It all points to economic affluence. When folks no longer have to struggle for their basic needs, they drift to more nefarious thoughts. An idle mind is the Devil's playground."

I find no statistics to backup your statement. So let me see if I have this right. When the economy goes down and people have to struggle for their basic needs, they don't have time for "nefarious thoughts." Is that what you are saying? I wonder if crime statistics would backup that statement?

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I wonder if crime statistics would backup that statement?

I just read the other day that crime is up in the US. So, even with out rip roarin' economy and seven years of conservative values (sounds like an oxymoron) things aren't really looking up in terms of our crime rate.

Here you go:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Murders in the United States jumped 4.8 percent last year, and overall violent crime was up 2.5 percent for the year, marking the largest annual increase in crime in the United States since 1991, according to figures released Monday by the FBI.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/12/crime.rate/index.html

Not what I saw recently, but you can guess the trend.

The founder of the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson, understood the harms resulting from the type of policy created at Virginia Tech. In his "Commonplace Book," Jefferson copied a passage from Cesare Beccaria, the founder of criminology, which was as true on Monday as it always has been:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson speaks volumes against you Soccerdad and so does Senator Boxer: After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S., long-time gun control advocates, including Sen. Barbara Boxer (D., Calif.), agreed that making airplane cockpits into "gun-free zones" had made airplanes much more dangerous for everyone except hijackers. Corrective legislation, supported by large bipartisan majorities in both houses of Congress, allowed pilots to carry firearms, while imposing rigorous gun-safety training on pilots who want to carry.

No President Bush thing here...large bi-partisan majorities. Go look up armed robbery rates, you'll find England's rate is double the American rate. So is much of europe. How can this be when handguns are prohibited? Backs up what Jefferson said above. Look up Australia's armed robery rate since their mass murder event in Port Arthur back in 1996, up 45% in the last decade. On Wednesday April 18th, 19 where shot dead in one neighborhood in Rio de Janiero, Brazil. American media was too busy to report it cause they're into an "only in America" thing. In Nagaski, Japan the Mayor was shot dead just a week ago...no guns allowed in a person's possession? Someone was just a little dishonest there, less honorable.

Actually, Virginia Tech's policy only made the killer safer, for it was only the law-abiding victims, and not the criminal, who were prevented from having guns. Virginia Tech's policy bans all guns on campus (except for police and the university's own security guards); even faculty members are prohibited from keeping guns in their cars.

Virginia Tech thus went out of its way to prevent what happened at a Pearl, Miss., high school in 1997, where assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a school shooter. Or what happened at Appalachian Law School, in Grundy, Va., in 2002, when a mass murder was stopped by two students with law-enforcement experience, one of whom retrieved his own gun from his vehicle. Or in Edinboro, Pa., a few days after the Pearl event, when a school attack ended after a nearby merchant used a shotgun to force the attacker to desist. Law-abiding citizens routinely defend themselves with firearms. Annually, Americans drive-off home invaders a half-million times, according to a 1997 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Private property owners also have the right to prohibit lawful gun possession. And some shopping malls have adopted anti-gun rules. Trolley Square was one, as announced by an unequivocal sign, "No weapons allowed on Trolley Square property."

In February of this year a young man walked past the sign prohibiting him from carrying a gun on the premises and began shooting people who moments earlier were leisurely shopping at Trolley Square. He killed five.

Fortunately, someone else -- off-duty Ogden, Utah, police officer Kenneth Hammond -- also did not comply with the mall's rules. After hearing "popping" sounds, Mr. Hammond investigated and immediately opened fire on the gunman. With his aggressive response, Mr. Hammond prevented other innocent bystanders from getting hurt. He bought time for the local police to respond, while stopping the gunman from hunting down other victims.

Soccerdad's just misleading us with some statistics that have little meaning regarding this horrific event. This guy was evil. He complied with the law until he broke it. Jefferson had it right back there in the early 1800's. Amazing how advanced his thinking was. A truely exceptional man.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Or how about this as reported in Scotland On Sunday:

WHEN A former Miss America was confronted by a thief in her Kentucky barn last week, the plucky 82-year-old knew just how to react. Venus Ramey, whose figure adorned Second World War B17 bombers, pulled out her .38 calibre handgun, leaned on her walking frame to steady her aim and coolly shot out the tyres of the startled intruder's getaway vehicle. She then held him at gunpoint, flagged down a motorist to raise the alarm and calmly waited until the sheriff arrived.

The story was celebrated as an example of the unquenchable American frontier spirit and the inalienable constitutional right to defend hearth and home with firearms.

The first redhead Miss America!

argument by antidote how clever

The comment I heard today was it should be up to teachers as to whether they want students carrying concealed weapons into classrooms. I can guess the answer. Can you imagine a 20-year old who isn't even able to buy beer being able to pack a concealed weapon just in case a student decides to shoot up a classroom? I can guess that the likelihood of that is miniscule compared to the possibility that a student might get upset about a poor grade and blow away the teacher.

In Utah, there is no "gun-free schools" exception to the licensed carry law. In K-12 schools and in universities, teachers and other adults can and do legally carry concealed guns. In Utah, there has never been a Columbine-style attack on a school. Nor has there been any of the incidents predicted by self-defense opponents -- such as a teacher drawing a gun on a disrespectful student, or a student stealing a teacher's gun.

Utah is just like the rest of the country, jeesh

In Utah, there has never been a Columbine-style attack on a school.

I believe there are plenty of other states, who do not allow teachers to carry guns, that can make the same claim.

No soccerdad, your stand is the rhetorical equivalent of blaming drunken driving deaths on "the easy availability of cars."

There are now some 20,000 overlapping gun control laws in this country, each enacted by lawmakers in violation of their sacred oaths to protect and defend the Constitution, virtually all imposed since the 1920s, before which time this was such a peaceful country that Americans didn't even lock their doors.

20,000 different laws and still this goes on. Amazing! What's another 5000 more going to do.

Maybe you'll next be investigating the latest Baghdad truck bombing by asking, "Where on earth did that suicidal militant get his Toyota?"

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Numerous witnesses to the Colin Ferguson massacre on the Long Island Railroad in 1993 later testified that -- had they not been barred by law from carrying their own self-defense weapons -- they could easily have saved many lives by taking down the killer on one of the many occasions when he stopped to reload.

Similarly, Suzanna Gratia Hupp won election to the Texas Legislature after testifying that she could have stopped another mass murderer in Killeen, Texas, from reloading and subsequently shooting Mrs. Hupp's mother and father in the head if the law had allowed her to bring into the Luby's Cafeteria that day the loaded handgun which she had -- as required by law -- left outside in her truck.

Jeesh soccerdad get real!!!

11,00 killed a year and you got 4 examples. Keep up the good work let me know when you get the other 10, 996 from a single year.

Steve might not want his sight so clogged up with this are your sure about that.

Why don't you explain to us, just this once, why these chemically warped fruitcakes never attack police stations or Army bases? Could it be because, even in their madness, they know the armed people there might shoot back?

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Care to tell me that Thomas Jefferson was some right wing neocon, soccerdad. Come on tell me Senator Boxer's one too while you're at it. She so beholden to the NRA isn't she. TJ must have been the founder of the NRA, wasn't he.

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Peter you got nothing but the usual nonsense.

Nice touch fruitcakes. You are truly pathetic.

I'm supposed to bow to guys who have been dead for 200 years and never enviosioned the world in which we live.

Why don't you explain to us, just this once, why these chemically warped fruitcakes never attack police stations or Army bases?

That's easy: the source of their unhappiness (for example boys who've been bullied such as the Va Tech situation and Columbine) isn't the police or military. The source of their unhappiness and the target of their ire is their peers.

Good lord. Who benefits from the sale of firearms and ammo? Corporations who manufacture them. They don't want to keep firearms out of the hands of Americans, we're their target audience for a customer base.

We expect each and every American to take a pledge. We expect our elected and sworn peace officers to sware to uphold the Constitution written over 200 years ago. He was there near the birth of our Constitution and author of amendments to same so yes. Ideas don't die, people do. His ideas are as relevant today as he was then. You're seemedly bankrupt. Unable to offset his greatness, one of our greatest presidents and all you can say is he didn't have 'vision'. He had plenty of vision. His vision was made current by Senator Boxer's remarks after September 11th. Connect the dots soccerdad.

Guns don't operate by themselves. Cars don't operate by themselves. The person pulling the trigger or driving the car direct the device. If you're impaired both are harmful to others if not yourself. This guy was evil. As Tiki said elsewhere, "he was an asshole by the time he was nine". He wondered about Cho's time in South Korea. Guns are used for our defense both self and nationally. I don't want a gun in my house. My choice, I don't like to be around guns too much outside of the authorities. My arguement is not for myself, but, I would not tell my neighbor to not have a gun. Some people can have them if they want. I don't want to.

Peers??? What junk are you reading. He was silent most if not all his life. Family was concerned years before he went to college. Years before high school. Jeesh Louise.

Ann, where does Muckdog get this crap? Economy is great, so that's why there is more crime. It must be because those idle rich kids have nothing to do but play tennis, golf, ski, or dine at the country club. Jeez

According to ann up there, Cho was the victim. Those 32 other people were at fault. Maybe all Americans were at fault. Soccerdad and me, both at fault. We weren't there, but we're the reason he did this. I don't think so.

Peter she didn't say that, so stop with the nonsense.

According to ann up there, Cho was the victim.

Ah, nope, not what I said at all. I said he was bullied, which he was, and directed his anger towards the peer group who he believed bullied him.

From Merriam Webster: Peer: one that is of equal standing with another : EQUAL; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status

Ann, where does Muckdog get this crap?

Economic theory is a funny thing. You'll hear from almost every economist that living wage ordinances will lead to higher unemploment, loss of jobs, etc. When in reality, that economic theory does not hold true. Living wage ordinances lead to lower employee turnover and better employee performance. Oh, and no more unemployment than before enacting the living wage ordinance. Ah, but the theory!

Care to tell me that Thomas Jefferson was some right wing neocon, soccerdad.

No. Just that the guns they had at the time held one round and took forever to reload.

Of course, my home is defended by a cap and ball revolver. It hangs on the wall. If an intruder comes in it will make a very effective and heavy club.

We weren't there, but we're the reason he did this.

Just you republi-cons. From the failure to have proper social services to the crumbling infrastructure, all of these can be laid at your doorstep. You are a "conservative". Just another "ism" that failed yet still has supporters.

He was silent in Korea. Where were the Koreans in Virginia? How many times do you have to say 'hi' till you stop. NO COmmunication from this guy. NONE. How friendly do you have to be? FRiendly for five years and no response, ten years, fifteen years? The grandparents thought he was autistic. These kids at college had very little to do with creating this. The high school kids had contributed very little to this. Why wait till three weeks from graduation to do this. This guy was evil. That rant and thats what it was, is complete window dressing. Defend him all you want ann. Democrats like to defend the criminal. Go ahead and associate yourself with this kind. It behooves Democrats.

Why didn't ALGORE win in 2000. Because of his stand on guns. He lost Arkansas, West Virginia, and his home state of Tennessee over guns. Anyone of those and the Florida crap doesn't matter. Even the union vote left him if they had a gun. 50/50 for each candidate if the household had a gun otherwise 61% voted for him. Just think, keep quiet on guns and be President. Think about those SCOTUS nominations. Did you like the finding on partial birth abortions? Thank ALGORE for that. Also thank the 17 Democrats in the Senate that voted for the ban in 2003 including your current Majority Leader Reid.

Come on Democrats, go for it. Go after the guns again. Lose some more. Let Guliani win the WhiteHouse and name some more strict constructionist justices. The gift that keeps on giving.

A personal thank you to ALGORE for his meaningful stand. AL thanks and thank you for President George W. Bush. And best wishes when you enter the 2008 race in November. It will be fun seeing that Billion dollars go down the drain or better yet. Make the media richer.

IT is NOT the VT killings. It is the Va Tech Killings.

VT = Vermont

Do you mind?

Someone better tell Virginia Tech because all their school logos say VT.

It's pretty simple. On a comment thread about Virginia Tech "VT" stands for Virginia Tech. On a comment thread about Vermont "VT" stands for Vermont.

OK?

ME

[That stands for me, as in I, not Maine.]

And that's OK meaning "alright".

Not Oklahoma.

IT is NOT the VT killings. It is the Va Tech Killings.

VT = Vermont

Oh get a life.

A personal thank you to ALGORE for his meaningful stand.

A personal thank you for you people being "conservatives". You have assured you will get the chance to field a candidate in...oh, say...30 years or so. You can blather on about VT and your love for cold steel all you want. It can never cover the fact that you are the most fucked-up group of Americans (and I say American only as a descriptor, not some definitional construct in your case) who ever lived.

The Founding Fathers would have recognized you for what you are, and you would have been pulling pine splinters out of your ass and peeling off tar on the outskirts of town. I'll leave the feathers alone. They define you.

Defend him all you want ann.

I did not at any point defend Cho, so stop it. Just becaus you can't defend your points, don't try to put words in my mouth that never happened.

Good lord. Who benefits from the sale of firearms and ammo?

You go to any area the "conservatives" ignore. You know what's there? Liquor stores and gun shops. The African Americans recognized this years ago. Now, it's "don't snitch". And we know how young white posers from the burbs like to emulate the black cool. Hold on tight, it's a bumpy road ahead.

Dearest April, I have a life & I live in Vermont. When I read a headline that refers to VT killings, I think of Vermont.

I'm asking as a courtesy that posts that refer to this event, be referred to as something other than the VT killings.

Is that such a non-life thing?

ME, as in you, that totally misses the point, OK?

Dearest April, I have a life & I live in Vermont. When I read a headline that refers to VT killings, I think of Vermont.

I'm asking as a courtesy that posts that refer to this event, be referred to as something other than the VT killings.

As a courtesy? LOL!

Speaking up to defend one's state abreviation.

Perhaps you can write to the administration at Virginia Tech and ask them to abandon this so as not to cast aspersions upon the fine state of Vermont due to any confusion over the location of this mass killing nastiness. Because they most certainly did not happen in the fine state of Vermont!

I'm profoundly sorry for the mental anguish having to read VT used to refer to Virginia Tech has caused you. It must be impossible for any of us non-Vermonters (I hope that's the correct term, if not I did not mean to offend.) to understand your pain.

ptr, yr skllfl rtcltn ncvrd, t th grnd lvl, th bsc prblm: whl mny cmmntrs TLK th tlk f bckng th Cnstttn, thy d nt wlk th wlk. Ths w nt th dsprgmnt f th Cnstttnl Frmrs.

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Tr dmcrcy s fr xprssn f ds, whl lmtng ny grp thnkng tht s dsgnd t ntrcpt Cnstttnl Lw. m frd tht th Cnstttn hs bn bltrtd yrs g, t th cmmn sns lvl, jst s dpctd by th ntrctn btwn yrslf, Ptr, nd thrs.

Ths, hw cn w tckl th prblms f scty, nmnlly sng th Cnstttn s gdpst, whn th prtcpnts fl t gr pn wht th Cnstttn sys, r dsprg th vry ppl tht pt t tgthr? gss n wld rg fr n mndmnt, bt dn't vn hr ths. ll hr s th Blshvk/Nz ncnscs dsr th hv n mprr, vn s thy ht th prsnt lttl mprr. Wht d th Blshvk/Htlr crps wnt? gss thy wnt thr WN mprl gnd: hlcst ftr hlcst; chs ftr Stn.

it is certainly not common sense to say in effect that what we have to do today has to be based only on a document written 200 years ago.

To say we disparge the founders because they did not forsee the society we live in today is a pathetic attempt to limit the discussion to your beliefs

Hypocrite heal thyself

To say we disparge the founders because they did not forsee the society we live in today is a pathetic attempt to limit the discussion to your beliefs

Wonder what the founders would have thought about mentally unstable college students being able to buy semi-automatic handguns and stockpile ammo.

N, wht w hv tdy s bcs th pwr lt dstryd th Cnstttn.

Why d w hv s mny drngd gngstrs t ll lvls f scty? n dstryng th Cnstttn, n spct, ws t r-crt th frdm f rlgn cls. Ths cls smply mns tht th Stt cn NT ntrfr wth CHRSTN rlgn. t ds NT mn, wht th rwlln crp bys dpct, tht vry dmn pgn trsh rlgn cn st p shp n mrc.

t ws crtcl fr th crp bys t rwrt th thnkng pn th bv, s t dstryd r cltr lmst s mch s pwrng p th crps thmslvs wth th mmrtlty f prsnhd stts nd th rght t prchs thr crps.

ht t snd lk brkn rcrd, bt, wll, prhps smthng jst mght mntlly clck, bt 'm nt hldng my brth. Bcs m crtn tht 'll d wtng fr yr ndrstndng n ths smpl pnt. :)

This clause simply means that the State can NOT interfere with CHRISTIAN religion.

Interesting spin. I don't recall seeing the wors "Christian" in the Constitution, though.

be referred to as something other than the VT killings.

!!MASSACRE IN VIRGINIA!! Just do it like the mainstream news.

peter, your skillful articulation uncovered, at the ground level, the basic problem: while many commenters TALK the talk of backing the Constitution, they do not walk the walk.

peter's "skillful articulation" proves he is an fucking idiot, and does not deserve guns, because he is a moron.

All of these 2nd Amendement jackoffs blather on like inane chattering monkeys about "Without the 2nd you don't have the other 9," all the time watching Americans be imprisoned without their rights while the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are shredded by the Mad King, idiot son of George.

You people don't have the reponsibility to own guns, and your failure to protect the Constitution supports that. You should lose your right to guns simply because you don't deserve them. No other reason needs to be stated. You are a mockery of what an American citizen should be.

You want a permit to own a gun? You fucktards should have to longhand the Constitution and Bill of Rights with no mistakes in spelling or punctuation to get permission to own a gun. That will take care of the whole problem.

It does NOT mean, what the Orwellian corp boys depict, that every damn pagan trash religion can set up shop in America.

Uh, yes it does. Unless, of course, you're a faux christian fanatic like scout and Falwell, who sees demons in tortillas.

Pagan Trash would be a good name for a band.

Interesting spin. I don't recall seeing the wors "Christian" in the Constitution, though.

The words "Democracy", "privacy", and "abortion" don't exist there either.

Funny how lefties ramble about these 3, disregarding stuff that's actually there. Just look at this unconstitutional DC vote power grab.

Come on Democrats, go for it. Go after the guns again. Lose some more. Let Guliani win the WhiteHouse and name some more strict constructionist justices. The gift that keeps on giving.

To be honest, Guliani is also a gun grabbing liberal.

Choosing between Gore and Rudy is like choosing to cut off 1 of my hands.

Then again, at least Rudy doesn't believe in giving criminals more rights than liberals. He has some sense of justice.

Because I am certain that I'll die waiting for your understanding on this simple point.

Promises, promises!

No kidding, SoS! Isn't it funny how even the trolls won't have anything to do with scout, no matter how much he sucks up to them?

cyt, y bby jckl, wrt tht.

7, knw tht y knw tht st y p fr tht:)

nn, knw tht y hv yr mmnts f nsghts, bt t ths tm, y r plyng n snd, nd t lst th jckl s NT thr lngsd y, s sh cn't fnd th bx. vn hr ct s smrtr:)

Scout must have made a major purchase of strawmen

Dont use them all up at once!!

The words "Democracy", "privacy", and "abortion" don't exist there either.

Democracy is a definition, fucktard. It's what the Constitution describes and enables, moron. Jesus, please get a vasectomy. And if you have kids get their tubes tied or get them vasectomies. Your type of stupidity is likely genetic.

Privacy is implied by....Amendments. You know, those things of which your type of drooling knuckle-dragging backwards country fucks have no comprehension. It's not enough that you're imbecilic, you continually have to prove it by not keeping your ridiculously asinine comments to yourself.

And abortion? You really out do your own incomprehensible ramblings and wordsalad with this one. Why do you lunatic authoritarians always pull this out of your ass when you have proven time after time that human life has no meaning to you?

You really need to educate yourself about the workings of the government and the intentions of the Foundi...never mind. I might as well request a doorknob to make toast.

soccerdad, scout's just trolling for chicks on the 'nets and has discovered the only way a batty ol' fuck like himself can get their attention is hurl a whole buncha insults and hope someone gets offended. I sure wish he'd go the porn sites like all the other batty old fucks. Then we wouldn't have to scroll so much thru these threads.

7, I know that you know that I set you up for that

I know that you know...that I would know, that you know.

The words "Democracy", "privacy", and "abortion" don't exist there either.

And limbaugh, coulter, dobson, robertson, and the rest of the hate merchants make sure to tell us more of turdblossom's talking points.
I am an automaton, I believe all of bu$h's propaganda!

phd, vn cyt s nc tdy, why r y pst? rlly d nt blv nyn hr dsrvs sch bs, vn whn w r ll s vry sd t sch trrbl trtmnt wtht th bnft f sld mntrng f th hgh schl grls, wll, grl, y knw, th ld jckl. Yt, sh hs bn n vry gd bhvr tdy. r y lk, tkng p th jckl slck?

cyt, s y lrdy knw, th Flwll typs r pr vl, n stp bv yrslf, n trms f svrty f flth, s thy wr th bg rd bdg f hypcrsy, drvng th gts nd jckls frm th trth, nd cnfsng th shp, fr tm. Y'r K, snc y r hthn; th Rbnsn's, tc., r th wrs, snc thy nvk Chrst nd knw tht thy r lyng whl dng s.

ls, dn't xggrt tht 'm hr lkng fr whtvr, bt 'm hr tstng th wtrs f gnrnc nd bs, t lst smtms. Whn vst SF, th cty n th hrzn s lk t my wndw, knw hw th rtclt ns thnk, s 'v stdd th jckl nd hr clyts :)

You really need to educate yourself about the workings of the government and the intentions of the Foundi...never mind. I might as well request a doorknob to make toast.

ROFL! This coming from a supporter of a socialist authoritarian economy.

That's rich.

Everyone knows liberals only care about the constitution when it suits them. Just look at their backdoor movement around the electoral collge and the unconstitutional House DC seat.

No wonder this country doesn't elect left winged zealots.

To quote Cho...

You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn’t enough. Your vodka and Cognac weren’t enough. All your debaucheries weren’t enough. Those weren’t enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you f—-, I did it for them.

In another time and place this passage might be hailed as a moving manifesto of an idealistic revolutionary hero fighting for social causes. Che Guevara, anybody? Who knows how many revolutionary “heroes” of the past who are lionized on today’s campuses had been tormented by the same mental disorder that turned Cho into a mass murderer?

Che Guevara also believed that “a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.” Che had killed many more “rich kids” than Cho - yet his deeds are glorified by Hollywood, his writings are published worldwide, and his pictures are plastered over the t-shirts of a new generation of “rich kids” - the faceless class enemy whom Che would not hesitate to shoot given the chance. Both Che’s and Cho’s speeches are equally delusional - so why does Che get a pass and Cho doesn’t? Because Cho had only killed 33 “rich kids” instead of 33,000? Or because Cho’s mental disorder was documented by a professional psychiatrist?

or

“Imagine growing up while believing that yours is the worst country on the planet.”

This must be where y'all are coming from..

“Imagine growing up while believing that yours is the worst country on the planet.”

This must be where y'all are coming from..

always spoken by the intellectually bankrupt because in fact they got nothing.
We need smarter trolls

No wonder this country doesn't elect left winged zealots.

And after you guys, we won't be electing any right wing fundamentalist idiots who went AWOL on their Guard service and failed at everything they ever attempted before Rove came along. But even those successes were abject failures.

“Imagine growing up while believing that yours is the worst country on the planet.”

Nope. Best country on the planet...besieged by the worst of humanity. Conservatives. You people are no better than the folks you cite. You have and always will cause more death and destruction on this planet than any of the movements you decry. Why? You need authoritarians to tell you what to do and think. And you go along willingly and unthinkingly. Your god is Mammon and your souls are rotted. Beyond that you're probably an okay person...with your head so far up your ass you would have to slit your throat to see sunshine.

“Imagine growing up while believing that yours is the worst country on the planet.”

Nope, striving to make it a much better society for all of us. And will continue to make it better even if it comes close to perfection.

Seung-Hui Cho. I Mourn Your Life and Loss
by Bcgntn
Fri Apr 20, 2007 at 07:21:36 PM PDT

My heart aches. Of course I mourn the passing of the thirty-two Virginia Polytechnic University students, as do we all throughout the globe. Nevertheless, I cannot forget how my heart hurts for the thirty-third victim, the one the media never seems to count among those killed, Seung-Hui Cho. On April 16, 2007 thirty-three lovable and fragile individuals passed.

From your friends over at the DailyKos ann.

It just had to happen.

"He sent out a fxxxing press kit, mid-slaughter."

one of the comments there

one of the comments there

One being the operative word here. You're being silly, petey. Stop embarrassing yourself.

And after you guys, we won't be electing any right wing fundamentalist idiots who went AWOL on their Guard service and failed at everything they ever attempted before Rove came along.

Good luck. Republicans have won 7 of the past 10 presidential elections. Soon that will be 8 out of 11.

You know what the funniest thing is? Despite your "chickenhawk" rambling nonsense, if it comes down to a war hero like McCain and a coke junkie like Obama, everyone knows where you stand.

That's some odds that I will want. Here and now lordanus, I will bet you $500.00 that a democrat will win. What say you?