Thanks, Mary. Good job. It's horrible what China's been doing to Tibet. The Dalai Lama has a broad view of it -- and I mean, very broad. As in, karma and the next life and the ones after that.
By the way, it's okay to call them Tibetans. Tibetians is a letter too many.
Posted by Slothrop at May 6, 2007 01:39 PMWell, yeah, I guess maybe it's a problem. But looking at it in perspective there have been four million people displaced in Iraq with about two million leaving the country, and they're not getting loans for new houses like the Tibetans. The ones still alive, I mean.
Even in America we have people displaced for public works, and now with the Supreme Court ruling, for commercial purposes.
And how about the coal mining in Appalachia? Parts of West Virginia and Kentucky are being devastated as mountains and forests are leveled and valleys are filled, making homesteads uninhabitable. And there's New Orleans.
Sorry, I can't get too excited about Tibet.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 6, 2007 02:08 PMwnt t knw wht r DC dts r dng t stp thr lttl Chns Blshvk csns frm dsrptng th lvs f pr nd hnst ppl. Th DC flth, bng crp lckys, cnsdr wht th pwr lt nds r vr ths f rl ppl.
W mst stp byng frm cmpns tht s Chns lbr; ls, smn hs t g vr t Chn t tch ths cmmnsts hw t trt dgs, nd wht th hll rbs sht s.
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Look at the back of your laptop, scout, where it says Made in China. What's your next move?
The Chinese civilization has existed for five thousand years and they invented just about everything. Right now they control the US economy with their products and their purchase of our debt which pays for those products. They are, you might say, in the catbird seat and you, my friend, are not going to teach them a damned thing. In fact they are going to teach you a thing or two because the Chinese are going to eclipse the US in world power in the not too distant future. It's inevitable, accept it.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 6, 2007 02:17 PMStll thnkng bt th dgs n Chn, 'd lv t shp ths bstrds fw hndrd mlns' nd sm hrd-ss shphrds, s 'v nvr hd n tht wld llw ll trtmnt, r pssbly msrd gd trtmnt, lk clnng drd md ff pws. Thy wll d vry nc crrctv bt, t bt th spd f lght, tchng th dt hndlr tht h s nt rbt.
n th thr hnd, lv ths dgs t mch t snd t sm plc tht hsn't cl. Ctch 22 sttn.
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Thanks for a glimpse into your world, scout.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 6, 2007 02:36 PMDn, y r mst crrct bt Chn, lthgh sspct tht w wll hv n ntrvnng vrbl, nd nthng t d wth thr Chn r r wn pwr lt, t lst drctly.
r lt crp dts hv s cght btwn l nd Chns lbr nd thr gfy mny crdt plcs, ll dsgnd t mk thm wlthy, nd r chldrn pr. f trnds cntn, thy'll smply lrn t spk Frs r Chns nd ct s ls n tn yrs, s thnk y sspct.
Ths s why wh cntrls th l rsrvs s s mprtnt. nd ths s why th crp bys hv t rgn rnn rsrvs, (bcs thy r t stpd t lrn Chns, tc.) nd thn rgn Chvz's l. f thy dn't, nc th l cntrs fgr t th fd rsrv l dllr chrd, s sspct Sddm dd, thy'll lv th dllr nd crt thr wn mny stndrd bsd pn blck gld. n ths vnt, Chn wll ls b wknd s thy dn't hv mch ld tm l-frnd clt, (r pwr lt bght nd pd fr mst f th l cntrs, wth th bv tw xcptns, nd th wld crd, Rss, whch cn't fgr t n trms f wht grp f ppl s ctlly drvng th Krmln. t ds NT ppr t b srl, nr th ntrntnl crps, t lst t ths pnt).
r scl sttn rmnds m f th Tl f Tw Cts phrs: t ws th bst f tms, nd th wrs f tms. t ths pnt, mst ppl, d t hvy dbt lvls, hv frly gd lvng stndrds, bt f th bv scnr strks, th w hv vry lw cnmc cycl.
nthr wld crd s th thnl prdctvty fctr s trms f rplcng l, s ths cld pssbl dly cnmc dsstr, bt 'm nt sr bt th nmbrs.
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scout,
Well the future is largely unknown, isn't it. We can identify trends, like China's ascendancy, but how China will cope with their energy needs is an open question. How anybody will cope with energy needs is an open question. At the moment the US is making enemies all over the world and China is making friends, and making investments, worldwide. They control the Panama Canal, for example.
I was talking to a Chinese man recently, a retired high school science teacher. In response to my question he said his class size was fifty. Fifty? I asked. How do you control fifty students? He said control is not a problem in a Chinese classroom--the students do what the teacher tells them to do, they don't talk unless spoken to and they keep an open mind to learn what is being taught. Could you do experiments with a class this size? No problem, he said.
The economic boom in China has been tremendous. I haven't been there but people who have visited say the place is alive. Everything we buy seems to be Made in China--are autos next? That would be something.
As for America, I agree. A day of reckoning must come--the piper must be paid. We can soften the blow with the right policies but we must have people of character in positions of power to get the right policies. Right now that is not the case, as you observe.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 6, 2007 03:11 PMI dunno what they'll do to clean up for the Olympics. Maybe they'll get the anti-freeze out of the cough syrup. It wouldn't look too great to have mass poisonings of tourists while everyone's watching.
Posted by Delia at May 6, 2007 03:27 PMSlothrop, thanks for the correction. I'll remember that next time.
Posted by Mary at May 6, 2007 03:36 PMFrst thy try t kll ff r cts nd dgs, nw th kds. Lk r brdrs, r gvrnmnt f glbl vllg/Blshvk prftrng s n f cnstnt flr t th ppl; bt wtch ths rts whn t cms t l, s ll knw. s thr s n plc n th wrld whr thy wll nt s frc whn t cms t prft n th pckt.
Dn, 'v tght schl fr tw dcds, n nd ff, bgnnng n 1971. hv wtchd r d systm ltrlly blw p. Hw? Ttl lck f dscpln, nd lck f rspct t th tchr, tchrs s grp. ndvdl tchrs f sld chrctr nd p fghtng nt nly chldrn nbl r nt wntng t lrn, bt thr kky nd gfy/stpd prnts, kds stll thmslvs, bt, mr mprtntly, th mst gnrnt schl dmnstrtrs th cntry cld pssbly prmt, mstly wmn tht wr frd f thr tchrs (bt, ys, ths s hw thy lrnd, myb jst lttl), r thr fft/hmsxl/pdphl cntrprt mls.
lv t tch hstry, s kpt gng bck, bt lft vry fw yrs fr lw nfrcmnt, nthr bd f bd chrctr, nd gttng wrs.
Whn ws dpty shrff n 1983, f y sd tht y hd ny pt n yr bckgrnd, tht ws grnds fr lmntn. n 2005, whn wnt bck nt lw nfrcmnt, th drg qstn ws f y hd bn CNVCTD f drg sg n th pst thr yrs! Jst crp. Chck t th FB nd C sts, nd thnk y'll s strngr rch bck n tm, nd pssbly wtht th cnvctn, r myb wth, cn't rmmbr, bt th pnt s tht t s nt bt chrctr nymr, bt lck f chrctr plcng thr drt bgs.
Frthr, th kds tht w dng th physcl tst wr ll pkng p, nd 'm tlkng bt stpd lttl sttnry bk rd WHR DDN'T VN STRT SWT. Nw, m n gd shp, t 55, (bt lk bt 30, s th kds ddn't knw, r cldn't crrctly gss my g), bt my pnt hr s tht th kds r nt nly flng t lrn bstrct stff, bt thy cn't fgr t bt bkng, jggng, psh-ps nd st-ps, vn f jb s n th ln.
Thr r vry fw Gd frng mn lft, f th lk f yr Btlr frnd, nd tht s th crx f th prblm. r cltr s cmpsd f bnch f mrsh mllws, physclly nd ntllctlly, yt thy STLL dntfy, smhw, wth n ctr lk Crw, thnk, n th flm Gldtr. bnch f fls prd wth th strngth f stcks, grls, nd chrctr f mrshmllws.
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55 huh? Well, you old fart. I think your a little over-the-hill Scout and on the downhill side of life. The way you talked, I had you pegged around 25-30. Interesting.
"A bunch of false pride with the strength of sticks, girls, and character of marshmellows."
Iamcoyote is right. You really do hate women.
Posted by Judith at May 6, 2007 07:41 PMFifty-five? Just a kid. I'll be seventy next month. Let's see, I left my Viagra Donor Card around here somewhere, I forget where. Well, at least I've got my priorities straight, for an old fart. As they say, I'm on the down-hill side of life, and cruisin'. I'll be in Ireland next week with a tall glass of Guinness on the bar in front of me and a band playing Celtic music over there in the corner--if that's going downhill then lay off the brakes.
I may be wrong. I was once--was it last year or the year before?--but you can't take scout literally. He bobs and weaves with parables and metaphors, and the basic truth is there somewhere floating around his words. Language is so inadequate, after all, and scout communicates on a different level then pure language.
Metaphor: It was after the lights were turned low, the romantic music on and a couple of glasses of wine that I realized what I metaphor.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 6, 2007 08:16 PMCouldn't George W. Bush just "do" a shock and awe on the Chinese, invade, and bring them the blessings of a purple fingered Democracy?
Note to the invaders: This time nip the looting in the bud and place guards on the munitions.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 6, 2007 08:36 PMIn fact they are going to teach you a thing or two because the Chinese are going to eclipse the US in world power in the not too distant future. It's inevitable, accept it.
It's always fun to watch a few people who don't know a damn thing about China pontificate. Americans seem to have an all or nothing attitude towards China. Either it's going to be supreme or it's going nowhere.
But black and white is not the real world, children.
As someone who's been studying the place for most of his life, has lived there, speaks the language, and has a doctorate in a related field, let me remind you of a few things.
1) China's pile of American dollar debt has some limited value as a bargaining chip, but it isn't a killer for one simple reason: it's worthless if the American economy tanks. Oh, you say, but that would be the end of America! WRONG. See the German inflation of the 1920s. Germany was still there afterwards. The Chinese, by the way, know all this.
2) Taking down the American economy almost certainly means a world recession, which in turn would almost certainly mean the end of the Chinese government. The government's sole rationale and excuse for power at the present time is the present prosperity. If it ever slows down, to say nothing of stops, they're in very deep trouble.
3) China is incapable of projecting power beyond its own borders. Yes, that includes across the Taiwan straits, which might as well be a thousand miles wide for all that they could ever be crossed by an invasion.
4) China's neighbours dislike and distrust it, to the point that some of them, such as Vietnam, have carried out pogroms against their Chinese minorities in the past. Even the North Koreans are periodically pissed off at tactless Chinese musings on how Korea used to be part of the Chinese empire.
5) China's industrial expansion has made it helplessly dependent on the rest of the world for resources, a large proportion of them shipped in over sea lands that China does not and never will control.
6) China has hundreds of millions of desperately poor people. Many of these have experienced nothing but exploitation in the present economic expansion. If there's any lesson to be learned from the thousands of years of Chinese history, it's that such a situation terminates in an explosion sooner or later.
7) China will be hit very hard by global warming, and appears in a worse state of denial than any other major power. They are in denial because there is very little they can do about it. They pissed away the thirty or forty years they could have used to become a true modern world power in witless political fantasies.
8) They are also being affected by social change. Those obedient school children? Perhaps a true story, for the time being (though I've seen many, many Chinese bullshitting credulous Americans just for the fun of seeing the rube's eyes twirl). But I teach these people daily, and there has been a catastrophic decline in the quality of students over the past ten years. Yes, when they were poor and eager, they studied hard. So did the Japanese, so did Americans for that matter. When people get richer, they get lazier. Why do you think the Chinese are magically exempt from this general rule?
9) There is nothing, literally nothing, that China manufactures that would not cheerfully be turned out by dozens of other countries, some of which have comparable labor costs. If you think the switch would take a long time, remember that it didn't take a long time for the manufacturing to move to China. China dominates the market in many things, but has a monopoly on nothing. If it tries to blackmail the rest of the world over laptops or Christmas tree lights, these will simply be made elsewhere. The Chinese know that. They aren't stupid.
10) The Chinese will be out of Tibet sooner or later. The Chinese that have been moved there hate the place and would gladly go home. The present unnatural situation depends entirely on outside pressure, and will rectify itself if the pressure is ever eased.
11) The Dalai Lama has been an enabler for the Chinese occupation. Not that I blame him. It's hard to criticize him for so doing; no one has the right to advise anyone else to start a Chechnya-style war. But with him gone, the Chinese will soon find themselves wishing for the good old days. Look for a long and bloody interlude before Tibet becomes independent in all but name and the Chinese pull out under some face-saving formula.
I am not particularly fond of the American world order and don't think it will last forever. However, it will not be succeeded by a Chinese world order, or an Indian one for that matter. We're back to multipolar in all likelihood. Try to restrain your onanistic urge to celebrate American decline, especially when it's in the presumed favor of a far worse regime. If there's one thing worse than sucking up to your own tyrants, it's sucking up to someone else's.
Posted by sagesource at May 6, 2007 11:54 PMHey, sage, come hang around Progressive Historians sometime. I think you could start an interesting conversation on China and it's national chartacter and position in the world.
Posted by idiosynchronic at May 7, 2007 04:56 AMDon, I am 65. My response to Scout was directed to a man who thinks women are dried up and dying post menopausal. Then I find out he is 55. In other words, he isn't any spring rooster.
I'm with you. The most vibrant, interesting and full of life people I know are in their 60s and 70s. As a matter of fact, my own Mother who is 85, is one of the most fun people to be around. Bright, clever, and charming makes her attractive to everyone around her. Scout obviously only measures a women by the most shallow of qualities.
Posted by Judith at May 7, 2007 06:21 AMJdth, py ttntn t dn, s h ndrstnds bstrct wrtng, nd thr s crtnly nthng slwng p hs brn rltd t g.
dn, sspct tht y'v rd, nd cntn t rd, bks t kp yr thnkng nd brn ctvty t f rch f Prknsn’s nd lzhmr’s. 'm mprssd.
Jdth, t s pssbl tht 'v ndrstmtd y, s my rfrnc grp s g 30-35, s tht s th g tht thrs vw b t. sng th psych thry f prjctn, tht s, thrwng my slf prcptn pn thrs, ths wld spprt yr vw. Stll, y r cmpltly n rrr bt th ht crd. cn tll y cmpltly tht cn nt s hw ny mn cld lv n ths rlty wtht gd wmn; ths mns tht lv wmn, nd t mch, nd ths ds nt mn tht m n dltrr. ls, ths ds nt mn tht by nt Blshvk/n-Nz prdgms f wht wmn shld b, whch s cmplt rrr.
d blv tht y lrdy knw th Bblcl chn f cmmnd, nd ths ds NT mn tht lds r scnd clss ctzns, whtsvr.
Jdth, whl y shldn't blv cmmnts n th nt, thnk y knw ngh bt m tht d nt l. n rsn fr wrtng s th xrcs f th brn, jst lk rdng. Ths cnncts t physcl ctvty. Drng th wntr, rd rd bcycl fv tms pr wk, 20 ml lps; 420 pshps, nd 420 st-ps nd 2 ml rthr slw jg, bt 9 mnt ml, tppng ff wth sm mld wght lftng f th wf's bwflx kk mchn. Drng th smmr bck ff th bv t thr tms pr wk, s hv t tk cr f th hs, tc.
Th bv s smply NT bt dmnnc, r whtvr, bt pntng t tht mnd nd bdy, hlth ws, g hnd n hnd. Th sx lf s rltd t vrll hlth, nd cn sy tht hvn't chngd snc hgh schl nd dn't knw wht dn's vgr s ll bt whtsvr. Th wf, blss hr hrt, s nt thng lk sh ws 30 yrs g, bt tht's K, s, sh hlps m t ndrstnd lt bt lf nd scl cndtns, nd thn thr s tht 'fr bttr n wrs cls' tht vwd wy bck whn.
Thnkng s smply nt dn s sltn, t s dn, ttlly, wthn cmplt sphr f ttl hlth. nc gt sck, r ld, my brn gs dwn rght wth th bdy, nd s ds th thnkng.
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Jdth, ls, nc w gt ld, mst dn't ntc hw sck nd ld thy r: thy cntn t thnk tht thy r yng, vn thgh thy cldn't jg tn ft, mch lss 10 mls. Th sm s tr fr rtnl thnkng.
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There are few things more amusing on this blog than scout's delusion that he engages in "rational thinking". Oy.
Tibet is simply another example of the hypocrisy of the Right--a unique, independent culture being coldly and systematically eliminated by an oppressive totalitarian regime, but one that has developed massive economic ties with corporate America and cleverly become its banker for Bushco's drunken spending spree.
Tibetans have suffered oppression as great as any Iraqi under Saddam, and have suffered it far longer. Don't hear much about the evil of oppressive regimes and "democritization" from Bushco (or conservatives) on this area of the world. Could anyone in any universe imagine economic sanctions against totalitarian China for their invasion, brutalization and destruction of the Tibetans and their culture?
Posted by euzoius at May 7, 2007 06:55 AMz, y rlly dn't hv t g t Tbt srchng s fr wy fr hypcrsy, s Sddm th Trrbl ws r prxy lrd gnst rn nt tht lng g; sm wth Nrg, nd tns f thr wrld ldrs tht w'v mrdrd, nt cntng rglr ppl, fr th pst 50 yrs, r mr.
Hw bt th hypcrsy f rprt trrrst scrty, whl w smltnsly llw 50 mlln trrrst/drg lrds/gngstrs/ nn brkrs/ dss crrrs, tc., crss th brdrs wtht dcmnttn?
Hw bt th hypcrsy f scrng th wrld fr thr rsrcs, wth vr 1000 mltry bss, whl th wf cn nt wlk sfly n dwntwn SF?
Hw bt th scl hypcrsy tht thsnds f frgn stdnts cm t th S t stdy, wrkng thr btts ff, whl r wn chldrn, vr ndlgd nd rnd bynd rpr, hv sch lw drv, tht thy cn gt thrgh schl nly f thy cht, rcvng dplm bsd pn gnrnc nd dct, msqrdng s ppl f gd chrctr?
Th lst f cntrsts s ndlss, bcs w fl t lk nt th mrrr, mrrr tht rflcts pr dprvty.
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r: kll th nbrn, wh cmmttd n crm, whl gnst cptl pnshmnt f cnvctd kllrs nd rpsts nd chld mlstrs.
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r: gr tht th Jwsh Hlcst ws trrbl dsstr, bt spprts th Hlcst f rb-srls nd Plstnns by th Stckhlm Syndrm srls f th lk f Blshvk/n-Nzsm.
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sagesource,
Taking down the American economy almost certainly means a world recession
Nobody suggested that China would be "Taking down the American economy."
China is incapable of projecting power beyond its own borders.
You're wrong. China is projecting its economic power in every continent.
China's industrial expansion has made it helplessly dependent on the rest of the world for resources, a large proportion of them shipped in over sea lands that China does not and never will control.
Chine is not "helpless" if it has the dollars to buy resources--money talks. China doesn't have to control the sea lanes to use them, unless we have anothger world war, in which case all bets are off.
China has hundreds of millions of desperately poor people.
True, and China has had many peasant revolutions, as you know, and still survives and grows in the long term.
China will be hit very hard by global warming, and appears in a worse state of denial than any other major power.
Worse than the US? We'll see. Things change.
Perhaps a true story, for the time being (though I've seen many, many Chinese bullshitting credulous Americans just for the fun of seeing the rube's eyes twirl).
Fuck you, sagesource. Let's stick to the issues--I don't take personal insults lightly.
There is nothing, literally nothing, that China manufactures that would not cheerfully be turned out by dozens of other countries,
What country has the labor force and historic entrepreneurship of China? As you know, the Chinese are commonly called 'the Jews of Asia'--in many countries where thay are a minority they control a disproportionate share of the economy.
The Chinese will be out of Tibet sooner or later.
Who cares?
I am not particularly fond of the American world order and don't think it will last forever. However, it will not be succeeded by a Chinese world order
Again, nobody said anything about a Chinese world order. I wrote: "the Chinese are going to eclipse the US in world power in the not too distant future."
Do you disagree with that?
Posted by Don Bacon at May 7, 2007 09:55 AMIt's always fun to watch a few people who don't know a damn thing about China pontificate. Americans seem to have an all or nothing attitude towards China. Either it's going to be supreme or it's going nowhere. But black and white is not the real world, children. As someone who's been studying the place for most of his life, has lived there, speaks the language, and has a doctorate in a related field, let me remind you of a few things.
Well, fellow Americans who don't know a damn thing about China, we've been reminded of a few things about China by someone with a doctorate in a related field. All wrong. Hah! Tsai chien, sagesource. Looks like you wasted all that time studying China, my friend.
Posted by Don Bacon at May 7, 2007 10:39 AM"The wife, bless her heart,"
Scout, that statement alone is condescending to me. The only word you left out was 'little.'
On one hand you praise women, and in the next breath you are about as insulting as any man can get. A man who has respect and love for women would never utter the insults you have.
Posted by Judith at May 7, 2007 08:44 PMJdth, nly y rd thm! :)
Th wf ds th bst tht sh cn, nd n mr; tht's ll xpct, s wn't gt mr wtht hg pckg f rsntmnt, whch y knw ll bt, sspct.
Nw, tht, nd fw thr thngs, s lv; bt rmmbr tht tr lv s kpng Chrst's cmmndmnts.
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