The Left Coaster: Comment on Open Thread

Comments: Open Thread

Woodward was a Republican and Bernstein a Democrat. Just reading Woodward in the past 6 years makes it clear that remains unchanged.

With the recent knowledge of who Deep Throat was, one wonders how good Woodward has really been and how much was based on sheer luck.

Brown-noser seems to me a very apt description.

Posted by Kevin Hayden at June 18, 2007 01:38 AM

Arianna Huffington: "I watched Meet the Press, and there was Ryan Crocker, U.S. ambassador to Iraq, who together with General Petraeus will testify to Congress. He demonstrated that along with the surge in troops, there's also been a surge in BS. Crocker's talking points offered a preview of the spin the administration will surely use come September."

Jeez, yu yu yu you mean there will be a "spin" in September. Oh please, tell me it ain't true.

Posted by Judith at June 18, 2007 04:10 AM

Congress is moving to change the direction of the Bush administration's nuclear weapons program by demanding the development of a comprehensive post-Sept. 11, 2001, nuclear strategy before it approves funding a new generation of warheads.

"Currently there exists no convincing rationale for maintaining the large number of existing Cold War nuclear weapons, much less producing additional warheads," the House Appropriations Committee said in its report, released last week, on the fiscal 2008 Energy and Water Development Appropriations Bill. The full House is expected to vote on the measure this week.

Well shucks folks, all he wants is 88 million. We must fund a new generation of warheads so we can help bring Democracy to the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061700969.html

Posted by Judith at June 18, 2007 04:32 AM

Seven of Six, I left you a post in the Father's Day Edition in case you hadn't read it. Nothing earth shaking, but it helped me in reference to my Dad.

Posted by Judith at June 18, 2007 04:41 AM

I used to agree with the notion that the Israeli-Palestinian issue needed to be resolved for there to be peace in the greater middle east. I now believe that even with that issue resolved, there wouldn't be peace. If there were a 2-state solution, there would still be groups of extremists who would be fighting to see Israel destroyed. And if all the Jews packed up and left, leaving the entire area to the Palestinians, there would still be Sunni/Shia fighting. That goes back way before there was an Israel and will continue on regardless of the situation with Israel. It's going on in Iraq and Lebanon right now. And while the chaos in Gaza (Israel pulling out worked real well, huh?) is based on who's willing to recognize Israel and who's not, I think there would be infighting even if, as I said, Israel ceased to exist tomorrow.

Posted by CG at June 18, 2007 05:26 AM

I caught that Judith. Thanks. I posted a piece at my site about a wonderful moment my Dad and I had earlier this year.

Posted by Seven of Six at June 18, 2007 06:55 AM

U.S. attorneys fallout seeps into courts

Lovely. AGAG corrupting the department, making life hard for prosecutors. Who'da thunk it?

Posted by Sharon at June 18, 2007 07:01 AM

yes Judith, it is hardly a surprise that Petraeus, point man for Bush's War until 2009, now thinks progress is being made but Septemeber is too early to tell. Everyone knew this would happen the day Reid caved in to Bush. We are in Iraq until Bush leaves office, and probably long after that. I guess we just need to get used to it.

Posted by T2 at June 18, 2007 07:13 AM

I'm sorry...left out one thing - where, by the way, is General Lute?? remember him, the War Czar?

Posted by T2 at June 18, 2007 07:14 AM

(Israel pulling out worked real well, huh?)

Let's not downplay the effect that the US embargo of the Hamas lead Palestinian government has had. It basically prevented the Palestinian government from having any chance of successfully exerting it's authority by leaving it destitute. They couldn't pay anyone. Hence the in fighting that has erupted between Hams and Fatah supporters. Left with no other means desperate people will lash out at whoever they can. Now that Hamas, having been democratically elected, has been expelled by a defacto coup the US is going to restore funding. Excellent example we're continuing to set, eh?

Posted by snark at June 18, 2007 07:28 AM

The Oprah /Michael Moore video.

Posted by Sharon at June 18, 2007 07:50 AM

George Bush's America: corporate profits going gangbusters, non-executive employees wages stagnant. 70% of Americans aren't fooled.

Posted by Sharon at June 18, 2007 08:03 AM

That link was to a pre-midterm election article. Funny, I see no change in direction in the last 9 months.

Posted by Sharon at June 18, 2007 08:06 AM

Now that Hamas, having been democratically elected

Perhaps we should stop trying to spread democracy. It doesn't work too well when the extremists are more popular than the moderates. It wasn't just us cutting off Hamas, it was the EU also. I think we were damned if we did and damned if we didn't. Do we want to fund a government bent on the destruction of it's next-door neighbor, an ally of ours? Maybe there was a middle ground, but I get the feeling it's in Hamas' best interest to keep it's population destitute. I really don't think things would have turned out differently if aid hadn't been cut off.

Posted by CG at June 18, 2007 09:45 AM

I get the feeling it's in Hamas' best interest to keep it's population destitute.

So the US (and the EU) did what was in the best interests of Hamas. Ummm...and that's a good thing somehow?

I really don't think things would have turned out differently if aid hadn't been cut off.

What would Hamas have done to advance their goal of eradicating Israel had the US and the EU not cut off funding for the Palestinian government? As you say, it is in the best interest of the forces of destabilization to keep the people in misery. Had Abbas had the funds with which to begin to bring some semblence of normalcy to the Palestinian rank and file (Like say actually paying policemen their salaries) it would have run counter to the objectives of Hamas. Instead, we aided Hamas and further radicalized more Palestinians who had another reason to call the US and the west hypocrites.

Posted by snark at June 18, 2007 10:00 AM

Not saying our policies were good. Just saying that I don't think we have so much power that our actions single-handedly fucked up Gaza. I think it would have likely happened anyway because of the disagreements between Hamas and Fatah over Israel.

Posted by CG at June 18, 2007 11:08 AM

Seven of Six, what an absolutely touching story about your Dad. Several years ago I read 'The Notebook" by Nicholas Sparks. The story is about a husband who visits his ailing wife night after night in a nursing home. During each visit he prays for just another moment in time to touch her mind. How fortunate that for one 15 minutes in time you were connected to your Dad.

I also laughed at your story about your Mom. My Sister and I have the same problem with our Mom. She is suppose to wear hearing aids, but for some reason resists the act of putting them in her ears. It is almost rebellious in nature. Consequently words are mistaken. "Mom, you want to stop at the store?" becomes "Mom, you want to mop the floor?" "Mop the floor?" "Does the floor need mopping?"

Yeah, and I yell a lot too, and all the while a voice in my head keeps saying "patience Judy, patience." Patience? I've been patient for the last four times I repeated myself, but I'll hold out for one more repeat. Hang in, you are not alone.

Sorry for straying way off the political topic.

By-the-way Seven of Six, great site.

Posted by Judith at June 18, 2007 11:24 AM

Not saying our policies were good. Just saying that I don't think we have so much power that our actions single-handedly fucked up Gaza.

I don't believe I said our actions 'single-handedly fucked up Gaza' either. Certainly was not the implication of my fisrt comment.

I was originally responding to this;

And while the chaos in Gaza (Israel pulling out worked real well, huh?) is based on who's willing to recognize Israel and who's not, I think there would be infighting even if, as I said, Israel ceased to exist tomorrow.

I read two implications into your 'Israel pulling out' aside. First, that the Palestinians can't police themselves without the civilized Israelis watching over them. A very colonial perspective I must say. And second, that you completely seemed to discount the fact that the Palestinians were doomed to failure because of the embargo. That was the point of the embargo. To make the Palestinian goverment fail. So to comment that the 'Israeli pullout worked out real well' in a joking manner as implying something about the Palestinians inability to run a state seems a bit crude to me given the odds stacked against them.

I think it would have likely happened anyway because of the disagreements between Hamas and Fatah over Israel.

But your initial comment proposed that Hamas and Fatah would be fighting each other even if Israel ceased to exist. That's a lot different than saying they would be fighting over Israel even if we didn't embargo them.

The Palestinians were, with intent, set up to fail. That's my point.

Posted by snark at June 18, 2007 11:40 AM

I think I lost you somewhere. I'm saying I think Hamas and Fatah would be fighting even if we didn't embargo them. And I'm saying I think they'd be fighting even if there was no Israel. Sunni/Shiite or extremist/moderate seems likely to go on and on forever. As far as Israel pulling out and Gaza falling apart--yeah, Gaza needed more support. I don't think Israel being in there is the answer. Ah hell. I have no answers. I'm just frustrated.

Posted by CG at June 18, 2007 12:03 PM

There were two significant "parties" in Palestine when Bushco demanded that holy elections take place---Hamas and Fatah. One or the other was going to win, and there was an excellent chance it would be Hamas. If we (and Israel) absolutely, positively weren't going to "permit" Hamas to run the government, then demanding elections was the height of idiocy. Or was the current civil war our "Plan B"?

Anyway, we demanded elections, Palestinians held free and fair ones and we immediately declared the clear winner simply "unacceptable" (Bush's phrase for everything that blows up in his face). So we (and Israel) decided we just wouldn't recognize the clear winner of the election and made no attempt whatever to co-opt Hamas, give them some carrots, work with them as the winners and people's choice, even when there was every indication the "moderates" in Hamas had the upper hand after their election victory.

Indeed as snark says, we and Israel made "government" by Hamas an impossibility. Result: a meltdown, what a complete surprise!

Another historic Bushco castastrophe, another hot civil war, which we may very well have helped foment to boot by arming Fatah. Sorry, but historians just aren't going to conclude "It was destined to be".

Posted by euzoius at June 18, 2007 12:15 PM

Sorry, but historians just aren't going to conclude "It was destined to be".

Exactly. There's no denying that external influences have operated to drive a wedge between Hamas supporters and Fatah supporters. All very intentionally.

Posted by snark at June 18, 2007 12:33 PM

Oh, and I just heard that we today "released" the embargoed Palestinian Authority funds that the elected Hamas government couldn't be allowed to use, of course, because Abbas has thrown Hamas out of the "government" somehow.

Now he can use those funds to fight the ME's newest civil war. Bushco loves these civil wars, apparently. Can't have enough of 'em. Millions for civil war fighting, but not one cent for civil government by the duly elected party.

Kind of hard not to be cynical about the whole thing---one can only imagine the feelings of the ordinary Palestinian watching this disgusting spectacle. "Democracy", indeed.

Posted by euzoius at June 18, 2007 01:35 PM

On CNN today Romney said he wants a pardon for Scooter cause there was no crime committed.
Mitt never pardoned anyone as governor but THIS must be really important to get the nomination.

Let's say Cheney knew Plame was covert.
Let's say he had her outed anyway.
THAT'S A CRIME.

Let's say Scooter knew this and obstructed justice to save his boss's ass.

THAT'S A CRIME, MITT.

Posted by TIKI AL at June 18, 2007 02:13 PM

Bushco loves these civil wars, apparently. Can't have enough of 'em. Millions for civil war fighting, but not one cent for civil government by the duly elected party.

Oh, but he's the Uniter, Decider, errr...Commander Guy!

euzoius, I'm confident that if his Administration could find a way to make a buck, we would all be at Civil War also.

Posted by Seven of Six at June 18, 2007 02:18 PM

Mitt hasn't heard that obstruction of justice is a crime? I wonder how the jurors feel now.

Posted by Sharon at June 18, 2007 05:09 PM

So we (and Israel) decided we just wouldn't recognize the clear winner of the election

Well for what it's worth, Israel was against having the elections in the first place. And how exactly can they recognize the winner, when the winner refused to recognize Israel?

It was stupid for the US to push for elections and Condi said "no one could have foreseen" a Hamas win. Now where have I heard that phrase used before? Oh right--planes into buildings. No one could have foreseen.

Sorry, but historians just aren't going to conclude "It was destined to be"

I think this is what I'm starting to have doubts about. Maybe what's going on in Gaza wouldn't have happened in quite this way, but I just think there would be plenty of conflict in the middle east even without Israel. These are old civilizations with old grievances. Israel, and our "interests" there certainly add fuel to the fire, but I just think there's more to it than solving the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

Posted by CG at June 18, 2007 05:41 PM

Thanks Judith. I found Mike's site and just sort of became a fixture. Mike's done a really good job in building it. I used to explore all the different links for hours. His Pictures of the Day, POTD, are fantastic. His Friday Fun is a personal favorite.
Now I get to call it home as well. Yipee!

Posted by Seven of Six at June 18, 2007 09:14 PM

Mike is lucky to have you Seven of Six.

Posted by Judith at June 19, 2007 03:48 AM

Well, I'm certainly not going to be dogmatic on this question, CG.

But a 40 year occupation rendering millions stateless and without hope has greatly increased depair and rage against Israel, IMO.

And the current fighting is between two sunni groups, Hamas and Fatah, so it's hard to see any age old grievances there, or see a reason to conclude Palestinians would also be having a civil war in some alternate fantasy world of a ME w/o Israel.

Posted by euzoius at June 19, 2007 05:25 AM