The Left Coaster: Comment on Smearing The Boos

Comments: Smearing The Boos

Bill will be back too, you know, he sleeps with her.

I'm not trying to be anything, all right? I would have thought the country wanted to be past the Clintons. I am, is all.

Please, Al.

Posted by paradox at June 20, 2007 09:44 AM

Blame the victims: a very old establishment trick.

Hillary's applause for the American military's illegal criminal invasion of Iraq and then blaming the Iraqi people for the chaos and resistance that followed is like applauding the German Nazi military for invading France in 1940 and setting up their puppet Vichy government and then blaming the French people for their resistance.

H. Clinton is just another traitorous imperial oil-nazi, goosestepping right along with the Bush crime family.

Posted by james k. sayre at June 20, 2007 11:16 AM

...Hillary was booed for spreading once again the Beltway meme that the Iraqis are primarily to blame for the mess the Bush Administration has created.

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to criticize Clinton for saying, "We did our part, now it's time for the Iraqi government to do their hard work" while at the same time advocating American withdrawal from Iraq? Aren't the people who are saying we should be out of Iraq saying the same thing? That it's not our problem anymore and that the Iraqis should figure it out themselves?

Posted by snark at June 20, 2007 11:20 AM

"Aren't the people who are saying we should be out of Iraq saying the same thing? That it's not our problem anymore and that the Iraqis should figure it out themselves?"

I want us out and I don't think the Iraqi's should "figure it out" themselves after we leave, although they probably could do it. The United States invaded a nation, blew it up, killed/killing many thousands of its people, destroyed the urban infrastructure and are trying very hard to steal it's one major export - oil-. I think we need to be out because we have no right at all to be there, and it does no good for our own national interest. I think we do "owe" the Iraqis something for the horrors we've inflicted on them and leaving, now and completely, would be a good start. If, after that first step, they settle down we ought to do whatever needed to rebuild what we destroyed. If they want to continue to fight amongst themselves precluding a reconstruction, then, at that point, I guess you'd have to say they are "figuring it out" their way. The lying former SecState Powell said "we break it, we own it"...I'd amend that to "we broke it, we fix it". Staying in Iraq and killing "insurgents" daily doesn't help anyone.

Posted by T2 at June 20, 2007 11:55 AM

Aren't the people who are saying we should be out of Iraq saying the same thing?

Yup. But it's Hillary, so she gets booed.

T2, even you said it:

I don't think the Iraqi's should "figure it out"...

but then,

If they want to continue to fight amongst themselves precluding a reconstruction, then, at that point, I guess you'd have to say they are "figuring it out" their way.

I'm not trying to pick on ya, but snark's got a point there. It's what we mean when we say get out, and we might as well face it, instead of making it a bad thing that Hillary said. Getting out means we leave a lot of innocents to the mercy of the insurgents and the new Iraqi Al Qaeda. Not too cool a choice, is it?

Posted by iamcoyote at June 20, 2007 12:25 PM

oh yeah, we wouldn't want any innocent Iraqis killed by foreign forces, would we? Unless, apparently, we do the killing. Please define "insurgents" in the context of Iraq...they wouldn't be, perhaps, regular Iraqi's who don't like a foreign country occupying them? Or would they be centuries old aversaries using the situation to resume their inter-religious war that Saddam had effectively put a stop to.
I never feel picked on here, everybody can say what they want. I hope the rest of you feel the same way. My point to snark is that all the people who want us out don't think it's "not our problem any more". Some, like me, consider it our problem because we caused it. Creating a situation where we can attempt to fix it is probably up to the Iraqis. And they very well may not be able to do that. We can't force it on them by killing them until they do, can we? We won't know until we leave.

Posted by T2 at June 20, 2007 01:05 PM

Sorry T2. It just sounds like an attempt to have it both ways.

Posted by snark at June 20, 2007 01:33 PM

Empathize with Senator Clinton. Iraqis are such ingrates.
Repaying us with a humiliating defeat after all we've done to them.
Perhaps over those large mountains to the East, we'll find friendly Asians.

Posted by Pvt. Keepout at June 20, 2007 01:50 PM

all the people who want us out don't think it's "not our problem any more".

I'm not sure that's true, there really isn't a conversation going on about what happens after a pullout, is there? But "Troops Out Now" inherently means that what happens immediately after is "not our problem." You can say how much you hate it, and how much you feel responsible to "fix" it once all the bodies created in the aftermath of our leaving have been buried, but it doesn't change the fact that the choice is: troops stay, our guys die; troops leave, more of theirs die.

Sure, Bush created this situation, but the Iraqi government has to, at some point, govern, and our pulling out means that they're on their own in the aftermath - it will be "their problem." As you say, T2, they have to create a situation that will allow us to help reconstruction, and it's the responsibility of the Iraqi government to do so as it will be our responsibility to help them. That's not "empathizing" with Senator Clinton or calling them ingrates, Pvt. Keepout, that's just stating the facts.

Posted by iamcoyote at June 20, 2007 02:08 PM

I can see why you could think that. Basically I"m for immediate removal of the occupying forces and I don't think the people who live in what is known as Iraq are at fault for the mess we've made there. We are.

Posted by T2 at June 20, 2007 02:18 PM

I don't think the people who live in what is known as Iraq are at fault for the mess we've made there. We are.

I don't think the people are at fault, and neither does Sen. Clinton. She explicitly said "the Iraqi government," not "the Iraqis." And they're not responsible for the mess we made, but they are responsible for what comes next. We may be propping them up, but they need to cut the puppet strings and take over if we want to leave.

Posted by iamcoyote at June 20, 2007 02:27 PM

Oh My-Now we are quoting Bill Scher? There is a "credible" source.

Posted by jj at June 20, 2007 02:49 PM

What a change, some fresh air over here. Not the usual "get us out of here and I don't care about what's left" crowd. Sure, we broke it, now we need to fix it or we'll be coming back again and again till we fix it right. I'm for fixing it right. I'm sure it matters who you listen to. I read many on my side saying things are looking up. And I know you've got just as many saying it's getting worse. I wish we had some reporting both of us could depend on. We seem to have lost that over the last decade or so.

The "withdraw now" people seem to not want it to succeed, or thats my take. I do think, or feel if you will, that we can fix it. That Petraeus is taking us in the right direction. I feel some of these "withdraw now" people just don't want anything W touches to succeed. Don't want to validate anything he's done in a positive light. Shame, they want to have eight "wasted" years in our history. I feel we've accomplished a lot considering what we've encountered. We have a bit further to go and many more horizons to see.

The Iraqi's seem to be going in a direction 180 degrees from the Palestinians in Gaza. Those tribal leaders in Iraq seemed to have figured out which side to saddle up to. Or they're figuring it out as they go along. After AQI has been depleted, they may very well reverse course and give us a hard time. Hopefully not, we must be prepared.

Posted by peter at June 20, 2007 03:18 PM

Obama's also blamed the Iraqis, which is one reason for my disenchantment with him.
Frankly, I don't see what is progressive about Obama at all, on the important issues. I'm open to education though.

Posted by Marky at June 20, 2007 03:45 PM

Sorry, petey, you're wrong, as usual. I'm not arguing that our troops need to stay, I'm saying that until we leave, the Iraqi government won't step up and do their job. It's their responsibility now, and our presence is allowing them to ignore their responsibility because they're using us for security.

Bush has already failed in this occupation, and our soldiers are dying because of his lies, incompetence and cowardice. We need to get out asap and stop the damage this failed president has inflicted on our country and on the Iraqis. It's going to be ugly either way, there's no good reason for more of our soldiers to die for Bush's imperialistic stubbornness. He failed, there's no success for us, it's time to get out.

Posted by iamcoyote at June 20, 2007 04:57 PM

As best as I can tell, nearly all the regional players who stand as guarantors of their constituents are in regular communication with each other.

There are regular diplomatic shuttles between Tehran, Riyadh, Damascus, Ankara and Amman. We are just out of the loop cause of the Caligula regime here.

It is an aspect of Amerocentricity that nearly all above thread elements save T2 betray no handle on the regional patterns of relations that define the region.

So all these players are poised to sort it out when the US leaves. In fact, until the flailing clumsy bushmess leaves, it simply isn't possible for the regionals to fix this cause we keep breaking it.

It's funny, the departure of Bushco will find a nation that is China's bitch, an international Pariah state and a hollowed out shell of an economy moving to a post empire return of a neo feudal system as the final repudiation of the Founders.

Posted by Chris Rich at June 20, 2007 04:58 PM

Paradox, I think that half this Country hasn't stopped long enough to figured out (or are too stupid to figure out) 28 years of a possible two family rule.

Posted by Judith at June 20, 2007 05:21 PM

but judith, no two families could be more different. The rich, blueblood,established, connected (outwardly and behind the scenes) New England power family named Bush vs. a kid raised and named by his step-dad in Slapshit, Arkansas, pulling himself up by his own smarts and gumption and wiles. A priviledged man and his lazy,priviledged son vs. a smart country boy and his smart wife. Ambition is all the have in common. Most politicians have that.

Posted by T2 at June 20, 2007 06:53 PM

Memo to Dem Prez candidates: don't describe any failed policy as "hard work". In fact, don't even utter the phrase "hard work", except when mocking Nero jr. and Repub enablers.

If it's a question of who gets the blame for the worthlessness of the Iraqi "government" and Army, we do. Bushco was told by expert after expert that post-Saddam Iraq would be a country riven by sectarian division, and that Iraq had no tradition, history or culture of democratic politics and compromise to hammer out a consensual power sharing arrangement requiring trust.

Hillary probably could have asked to read all the State Department and Defense Intelligence Agency materials available prior to the invasion.....You Go, Irrraqis!

The current logjam of perpetual killing will continue until something occurs to alter the equation, like us declaring a withdrawal date or the Iraqi parliament voting to end their "consent". As long as we stay, holding the nightmare "together", it will remain a living hell fixed in amber.

With Bushco in charge, only a fool would have the slightest reason for hope.

Posted by euzoius at June 20, 2007 07:00 PM

While I look forward to a Democratic presidency... I have to admit that I'm loathing the thought of Hillary in the chair. Sure some decent things should and will get done, however I have a hard time seeing her as anything other than yet another corporatist.

I have no hopes for a true populist until we get some serious campaign financing/lobbying reform done.

Still firmly in Edwards camp and will stay there. The only thing that may move me is Al.

Posted by Simp at June 20, 2007 07:35 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if US covert ops are encouraging the sectarian bloodshed. As long as there is chaos, as the argument goes, we can't leave. And the longer it goes on, the less pesky Iraqis are around to resist occupation and the exploitation of their national resources.

The widespread use of depleted uranium munitions in this theater (and others in the ME) with it's concurrant genetic damage causing residue (with a half life of 1.2 billion years) further indicates that population control may be one of the goals.

Islam forbids usary. What use is it to International banking syndicates? The GWOT has many objectives, few of which are openly stated.

Posted by brisa at June 20, 2007 07:38 PM