" We owe the Iraqis many things for breaking their country"
yes, steve - and the first thing we owe them is to respect their wishes. if people of iraq want a continued usa military presence, then you'd have a point. but they don't. and it should be up to them to decide.
further more, you may recall that there were little or no al queda in iraq prior to our military occupation. why would a continued military presence decrease al queda supporters in iraq?
finally, please read robert pape's research on suicide terrorism. the continued presence of combat troops in a country where they are not wanted puts americans at greater risk of terrorist attack.
that said i welcome lugar's speech and, if it is backed up by action, i am happy for him to have all the face-saving he needs.
"I am a minority among the center-left bloggers when I say that despite what I think of this war, and my desire for an immediate pullout, I support a residual force for several years to provide a Special Forces capability to reduce or eliminate the Al Qaeda threat inside Iraq."
Steve, you are not being realistic, the Special Forces are not a force capable of eliminating Al Qaeda's threat in Iraq. The Special Forces are the wrong tool. It is like trying to use a chainsaw to operate on a festering boil. The tool does more damage than the infection.
The only way that Al Qaeda can ever be removed from Iraq is for the Iraqis to do it themselves and they will as soon as we get our troops out. The only thing the chainsaw Special Forces will do is grind up a lot of Iraqis and spread the festering infection even farther and delay the expungement.
The problem is that only cultural remedies will ever cure the world of Al Qaeda. The reliance upon military troops is a great thing for the macho ego of those who deploy them, but ineffective as a solution. Paradoxically, the display of military force against Al Qaeda is what they want and proof of our impotency. All the military tools is doing is making things much worse.
Special Forces cannot work because culturally they are so violent that they destroy instead of creating the context where peace can come back to Iraq. Peace comes only through justice experienced and military force is the antithesis of justice. Its very purpose is to deprive others of their humanity without any due process or consideration. Therefore, even a residual force, if it is acting militarily, will inevitably fail. A chainsaw simply is not a proper tool to cure an infection.
Sorry, but your prescription will not work.
Posted by Nobody at June 26, 2007 09:41 AMI have to disagree with you as well Steve.
Any force we leave in Iraq will be considered enemies of the Iraqi people, Sunni and Shia alike just as they are now.
Our Military will still be targets and they don't need to be.
As far as saving the Iraqi people, well, it should be obvious by now that this was never part of the plan. Who knows how many have been tortured? If we haven't killed a million people yet that can't be too far off.
It's easy to ignore that living here but In Iraq the horror never ends and it is ALL OUR FAULT. It is the occuppier who is responsible for the security of the occupied. We have made that security impossible for the very purpose of never leaving and to use these stolen lands as a base to invade and steal more.
There are windows of opportunity which open and close. The window of opportunity to do right by the Iraqi people has been closed, nailed shut and painted over with blood.
We are empire now Steve and our fall will be great and is already in progress.
Posted by mparker at June 26, 2007 09:42 AMI must differ with one assumption made. I think that when the 'western' nations not invited by the people of the region leave, there will be no alaqeda. there really never was in so many ways. It was a creation of someone with a desire to control american politics. so a simple solution is the saudi's. since every other aspect of terrorism points to them, and their financing, why would we want to go out on a ledge and predict what is going to happen in a region controlled by someone pulling the strings?
If we remain in Iraq it will be because of oil. If the assumption is granted that we will always need it and thus be dependent on the chief opec nation, we lose. If we lose, we will be in Iraq forever. Note that China stepped in yesterday and got a piece of the pie? If we continue to resist the idea that the G8 is behind the land grab in the oil regions, we lose again.
reality shows you opec's man in the white house. the US and GB are now starting a "bribery" investigation on BAE, after 40 years. this is a specious investigation that you can bet will go nowhere because it crosses party lines. please let's not lose sight of the cause and effect. oil, thus money and power. the operation is totally corrupt. it is not really worth keeping something that you can't fix. but I'll bet you that's what happens
it is time for a total independent that has the backing of the people. the parties we have now are not worthy of anything except suspicion
Posted by oldtree at June 26, 2007 09:46 AMOur responsibility is to do everything we can to stop the genocide in which we are currently engaged in Iraq. There is no other way to describe what we have done in Iraq.
If we leave, the Iraqis will figure out how to recover. What remains of the Iraqi People are still talented and intelligent.
If we stay, more will die than is necessary and the recovery of the Iraqi People will be delayed and and the lives of the survivors will be made even more horrible.
If there is blowback and there will be, we have brought it upon ourselves with our hubris. Steve, to be blunt, to think that a residual force of Special Forces could accomplish anything good is simply hubris on our nation's part.
We are well-armed, but impotent there. We need to leave immediately and completely.
. that is inherent
As for the oil. The reason we are there is to keep the oil off of the market until we expend existing reserves at high, monopoly prices, and by cornering the Iraqi oil supplies to maintain output controls for our oil masters. If we just leave, the supply restrictions will collapse and the oil will be on the market at lower, more competitive prices. The Iraqis won't hoard it, they will pump it as fast as they can.
Bad for Bush and his Oil Buddies. Good for ordinary people. Just think lower oil prices. Lower Defense costs. Fewer dead. More peace.
All we need to to is leave humbly and fast.
Posted by Nobody at June 26, 2007 10:01 AMPlease, no bad dreams of a lingering military presence in Iraq. A defeat is a defeat. No more residuals of any kind. No Iraqi oil patch to have and to hold. No more cost/benefit analysis for bad karma.
The blood, Steve, the blood. It doesn't wash out.
Posted by Copeland at June 26, 2007 10:02 AMI disagree also. Buschco and the military effectively neuters your strategy by calling anyone they encounter in Iraq -man woman or child- Al Qaeda.
The piece also doesn't recognize the shadow army of mercenaries, estimated to be close to the size of our own military presence there, and how we use them in the shadows after we are gone. Nor does it fully recognize the problems created by trying to manipulate a puppet government.
Iraq is neither Germany nor Japan, and certainly not Korea. Germany and Japan fought the world until they were destroyed, and then accepted us as conqueors. They were fortunate we were still a decent people then. In Korea we were fought to a stalemate and accepted a truce rather than just nuke (largely valueless) everything in sight.
In Iraq we took a functioning country and destroyed it so we could control it's natural resources. And we have been incredibly incompetent and horribly cruel during the process. We've even gutted our own Constitution over it. As other posters suggest, our presence there will be like Israeli troops in Palestine. They may control by force, but never will they be safe in doing so.
After the number of people we outright tortured, killed, destroyed their homes -often entire cities- made them drink water with shit in it, took their healthcare, starved them, left them without power or even gasoline- the idea that we can sit back in-country and be safe as the great white hope doing our burden as white men is silly. The United States has a history in the region, and we got it through sending in special forces or helicopter gunships to kill a few more folks. You kill one Al Quaeda, the Iraqis don't care. You kill one child, torture a cousin, kill a father, shoot an entire family in a car, leave some without food, bomb their home, make it to where they don't have a job...you do all this, and then don't understand that they don't want us there and would be better off with us gone.
I guess it's horrid that they would not consider us as special as we consider ourselves. We showed them our American Exceptionalism. Death, torture, and destruction. Complete and unconstrained destruction of a country. We were, and are, exceptional at it.
Posted by phidipides at June 26, 2007 10:14 AMWe owe the Iraqis many things....
Since we plan on occupying Iraq for a least 50 years or longer (have you seen the U.S. fortress, I mean Embassy in Baghdad?), it should be clear to almost everyone that "we" won't be giving the Iraqis the very thing they want most: for the Yankees to get the hell out of the country and stop stealing their oil.
The problem with Iraq, Steve, is that it is full of Iraqis--most of whom hate us with real passion.
The reality of an empire is that to take a sovereign nation, you either have to commit a genocide or lose. To "win" in Iraq, we will have to solve the basic problem, the Iraqis.
And as Copeland sais, "The blood, Steve, the blood. It doesn't wash out." If the blood necessary to "win" is spilled, it will be infectious and the "win" we obtain will kill us too.
There is no "win" in Iraq. We were defeated by the first bomb we dropped upon ourselves. You see, when we invaded Iraq, we all became Iraqi by the blood we let! As we fight and slaughter Iraqis, we kill ourselves.
Maybe instead of calling your blog theleftcoaster, you should call it thereichcoaster. You really have been brainwashed by too much American imperial propaganda in grade school, high school and college, I guess. You believe as do Bush and Cheney, that imperial America has the reich to do anything they want to anyone around the world, to invade, occupy and torture and kill anyone who would dare to stop us from stealing their natural resources and enslaving their people. We fought against this imperial arrogance back in 1776, when we declared our independence against the British Crown, King George III and his Redcoats.
Now, some two hundred and thirty years later, we have become the imperialists in the world. We have military forces in over one hundred countries around the world. Why? Do the Iranians? No. Do the Chinese? No. Just the United States of America. Imperialists.
Posted by james k. sayre at June 26, 2007 10:53 AMI have to agree with the comments on this post about our continued presence in Iraq being a disaster.
BTW, great comments everyone.
However, I do agree with the statement:
"Many bloggers, and rightly so, will not believe any GOP senator will break with Bush and call for a drawdown of troops until they actually see it happen, having seen this rhetoric and cave-in too many times before."
When they vote in favor of a pullout date I'll believe it. Not until then.
Lugar can spew this line for all the news he can milk.
As far as Warner is concerned; I thought I read where he plans to retire next year?
James, insults aren't needed.
Posted by Seven of Six at June 26, 2007 11:05 AMI agree with Phidip...we don't have the army to defeat Al Qaeda if we are determined to call every Muslim worldwide an Al Qaeda member, which is where we are currently being pushed by Bush and his Media. In the end, we as a people, Left and Right and Indy need to determine if the American Way involves invading countries, destroying them and occupying them for fake reasons. If that's cool, then we stay. If not, we need to leave and the sooner the better.
Posted by T2 at June 26, 2007 11:11 AMWell said Steve.
Anyone whose real objective is stopping the deaths of American service members and innocent Iraqis should appreciate the sentiments expressed in this piece.
Posted by snark at June 26, 2007 11:24 AMI would like to wholeheartedly agree, Stave. Let's "exploit" the schism between the Republicans. Except, do we really believe it's there? As you yourself indicated, we've all seen this rhetoric and cave-in too many times before. If it's not simply blackmail involving Jeff Gannon or something like that, and I'd be willing to bet that there are a LOT of potential Jeff Gannon "videos" safely stored away, maybe in DICK's "undisclosed location", then perhaps Republican candidates are forced to drink a strange, bitterly sweet bright red beverage before they get the campaign checks.
Otherwise, it's either tons of cash, threats of political thrashing, wingnut teeth gnashing or horses' heads in their beds that keeps to Republibot party ALWAYS voting the party line when the chips are down and the arms are twisting. Some of them may wish for an excuse to jump overboard, but not enough and not just yet.
I guess I'll have to jump on Soto as well as everyone else. We have NO legitimate purpose in being in Iraq. Sure we broke it. Smashing it again and again with a military hammer, (and unfortunately, that all the military is - a dumb tool of destruction) or retreating into the hills (stolen by us) and hunkering behind impregnable fortresses with the continuing threat of coming out and smashing thing again repeatedly with a hammer, is not a morally defensible position.
OUr current leadership does not even care to understand the dynamics of the society they've shat upon. In their magical thinking, relentless persistence at an idiotic act is the true path to enlightenment, or at least, enrichment, for them and their allies.
Special Forces troops are trained at infiltration, bribery, assassination and other fun tricks to manipulate friends and enemies. However, they now have a bit of history in Iraq which makes their likelihood of controlling ANY aspect of security in Iraq very doubtful. More importantly, unless you think like an Imperialist, WE HAVE NO MORAL, LEGAL OR RATIONAL REASON TO BE THERE! Let alone decidin' to park ourselves in a highly volatile region for the next few decades until the oil is absolutely needed.
Does anybody still remember the ideal of a representative democracy? There have been lots of good comments about the oil market as a whole, not just the task of pumping Iraqi crude, which pretty clearly demonstrates the thinking of the Cheney White House. As long as their corporate colleagues are making obscene profits, the rest of humanity can go Cheney itself. Our republic is staggering toward the abyss. We must be able to stop thinking of the military as anything other than the very last resort. Further stupid American military intervention is no solution. Get them all out, as soon as possible!
Posted by DeminNewJ at June 26, 2007 01:51 PMWhat, retreat to Kurdish Iraq??? Really, Steve, the kurds have become the enfant terrible due to all our pampering. Are you aware that the kurds shelter the PKK, a group which commits regular deadly terrorist attacks in Turkey? Keep your eye on Turkey. They've been very patient to this point, but if we don't do something about the sheltering of this terrorist group, we will find ourselves in the middle of worse than an Iraqi civil war--maybe a regional war.
The ONLY advantage to withdrawing to Kurdish Iraq is that the Israeli rightwing government believes it would also protect them. Not that I believe it does. They're just as stupid as this administration. But, protecting Israel has been as much a reason for this neo-con agenda as protecting the oil.
And as long as we remain in Iraq, no matter how small our military presence, we will be seen to own the results.
Posted by Julie at June 26, 2007 06:49 PM