I respect Lugar and Voinovich (I've followed him ever since he was my relatives' neighbor & councilman in Cleveland), but I'll applaud when they actually do something--write legislation, vite for something worth voting for, etc.
Posted by Rich at June 26, 2007 12:42 PMso, Steve, you think the GOP is going to force Bush's hand on Iraq? Lets continue the dream and say they'll be joined by of some GOP presidential candidates? Which one will put his GOP credentials and presidential chances on the line by defying Bush and Cheney?Doesn't sound like Rudy, or Lover Boy, or McOld. Would Mitt? When a major GOP candidate comes out against Bush's New Way Forward and say's "lets start getting them out and re-deploying" then the dam will have cracked. While we are at it, which Dems will jump on board? Hillary is already on the "stay for a long time" bandwagon. All this sudden talk by Voinovich and Lugar sounds alot like the plan Murtha was called a traitor for.
Posted by T2 at June 26, 2007 12:55 PMT2:
I expect none of the GOP presidential candidates to break away from Bush on Iraq, because their first priority is to lock up the wingnut base. But that priority is different from the priority of GOP senators who already have a good job and don't want to lose it next year by sticking with Bush on Iraq.
Posted by Steve Soto at June 26, 2007 01:23 PMAre both Lugar and Voinovich up next election? Sorry I don't follow these things.
Posted by T2 at June 26, 2007 01:29 PMThis is probably another "Arlen" dodge play: A speak-up and pretend to oppose Bush, sucker the Dems into thinking they just for once might win a point, and then defeat the demcratic response the day of the vote by stepping aside and hopping back aboard to W's bandwagon.
These guys remain true believers in the efficacy of military action to get good results.
Posted by Nobody at June 26, 2007 01:39 PMBasically what these corrupt Repubs are advocating is the Dems Iraq appropriation bill without the "timeline", or as these same Repubs called it, the "surrender date".
Is this New Lugarism something real, or has the way for this emerging new "counterrorism" mission been paved with recent lexicon change that all "insurgents" are now "al qadea"? i.e. Lugar's just backing what Nero's doing---goin' after al qaeda. Obviously anything being done to "al qaeda" is "counterterrorism" and acceptable in the New Lugarism. And we now are fighting only al qaeda in Iraq.
Voinovich seems to be saying what the ISG and Brzezinski were advocating: pick a withdrawal date in future and tell the regional powers Iraq and its problems are going to be up to them. The "hold their feet to the fire" strategy. Repubs could've agreed with Dems months ago on that strategy, so why adopt it now?
Will the surg-culation now be described as a "counterterrorism" operation?
Posted by euzoius at June 26, 2007 01:41 PMVoinovich is not up again until 2010, and Lugar was just reelected last year with no Democratic opposition. They are both doing this I believe because they've had it with Bush, and to give vulnerable GOP incumbents cover to do the same.
Posted by Steve Soto at June 26, 2007 01:49 PMI wonder what would happen if one of the GOPer pres candidates threw in with Lugar, etc. That would shake things up pretty good, and perhaps catch the attention of the middle road republicans that aren't just wack jobs. I'm thinking what used to be normal republicans are as fed up with Bush and his War as most of us. At least 33% seem to be looking for someone to not be like Bush. McOld, who is toast at this point, and probably hates Bush, and is a known flip-flopper might resurect his campaign by jumping on the LugarWagon. He's got nothing to lose at this point.
Posted by T2 at June 26, 2007 01:50 PMAnyway, keep pushing for the withdrawal date, Dems. It's what the people want, and it's basically the strategy that Voinovich is advocating, except implemented in a way that would work.
Make these "moderate" (ha-ha) GOoPers come crawling back to OUR position, not look like WE'RE getting on board the "wise man" Repub elder position. Raising their stature as the "problem solvers" is a big mistake.
The Repub "lions" could've done the right thing after the election. Instead they opted for 12 more months of increased carnage to destroy the Dem Congress in the eyes of America and continue protecting their failed "president".
I can see turdblossom scurrying to get the talking points on Iraq straight with these Senators.
With these republi-cons in the Senate, supposedly jumping ship, Kos made a great point in his article on the Employee Free Act:
"Republican obstructionism in Congress -- on Iraq, on stem cells, on union organizing -- is building a solid electoral case against the GOP in 2008. The electorate will have a chance to vote for this stymied agenda or for its continued obstruction."
Whenever something dies in the Senate, from here on out it should be referred as "continued republican obstruction"!
And this is exactly what McConnell is doing. Always, trying his best to make the Dems look bad.
If we can hammer this home in the MSM I think it could be a successful strategy for '08'.
It sounds reasonable to me, but can we get anyone to lead the parade?
Why give the Republicans daylight and wiggle room on ANY of this? This is THEIR war and THEIR mess.
They had no problem with calling dissenters "objectively pro-terrorist" and "elitist fifth-columnists", so they can take responsibility for their own fiasco and pay the price.
The Dems should be doing all they can to distance themselves from any action that puts them on the hook for any outcome other than complete withdrawal with honor.
The Republicans are already planning to use the 2008 defense budget as the vehicle to force Bush’s hand on Iraq.
Sorry Steve, ain't gonna happen. Bush/Cheney won't back down and these guys will buckle.
Talk is cheap. Let's see them put time tables and enforceable benchmarks in the Defense Budget. It has been about a month since they were all calling Democrats traitors for trying to put constraints of any kind on Bush. It was apparent in May that this 'surge' was a bust and they knew it. Despite that, They still carried water for the President.
I do not believe their colors have changed that much that fast. I know Lugar is considered a moderate. But, who cares if he gives one speech urging "compromise" from both sides. We've heard this before. Democrats compromised, Bush did not. He is lying. All he wants is time. "Let's wait til April". Another Freidman.
If he really means it, get behind the Feingold/Reid Bill. That is not a bring 'em home yesterday bill. It calls for responsible redeployment.
Posted by apishapa at June 26, 2007 03:00 PMThere is nothing like a little more darkness...even if you pretend it is daylight.
Posted by Jill Bains at June 26, 2007 03:07 PMLugar and Voinovich will have a change of heart after Cheney tells Bush to summons them to the WH for a special private conversation with he, Rove and Cheney.
Posted by Judith at June 26, 2007 03:36 PM
Steve: You can count me in as a convert to a mission change from occupation to counter-terrorism..doubt there are many terra-ists in Iraq tho', but anything to stop the carnage on our side..in fact the Dems should have given Junior a six-month surge window (as you stated around the New Year) with a September time fuse...looks like over 400 US soldiers and personnel losing theirs lives in four months has spurred Voinovich and Lugar to relent but I don't hold much hope that the GOP will cave on Shrub...
Posted by Goyo at June 26, 2007 04:49 PMI want bush there like so much White House lawn chocolate, dodging supeanas and bills, while we investigate even more. Keep pitchin' bills at the White House.
But, watch the political games. Never overestimate the dumbness of his core support. Do not expect the English Lahguage alone to do the job. Slogans and perceptions, and catering to greed work. But, catering to what thet think is deep inner common sense works best. It's common, we should be able to learn to recognize it. The reason we don't is because it ain't sense. But it's still there.
Sigh....although I welcome their comments and hope they are sincere in their words...I'll just cross my fingers and hope that when push comes to shove and the "tough" votes are needed to enact a serious change of course in IRaq, that they both (along with others who perhaps have been critical in the past) will vote in a manner that matches their words....and I already see that Lugar has been summoned to the WH which as Judith remarks certainly gives me pause for hope here especially after reading that Cheney expose...gee wonder what type of arm twisting Fourthbranch and kKKarl has in store for him?
Posted by emal at June 26, 2007 06:25 PMVoinovich Joins Lugar - The Dam Has Broken
Nope. The dam is perfectly sound. It's like the democrats claiming they'll set firm timelines for Iraq war funding, we had to wait for the vote to know the lie. I'll believe the dam has broken when I see the votes. Otherwise, republi-cons are the rotten enabling fuckwads they have always been, Voinovich and Lugar included.
Posted by phidipides at June 26, 2007 06:31 PMYeah, phid, more wishful thinking. Nothing's broke, just some more politics. Didn't the GOP'ers call the Democrats obstructionist last year? Helped them out just right didn't it in November. Yeah folks, get Democrats to do the very same thing. Prove to the American people they can't get along with each other and do the people's business. The 08 election was Democrats to lose and they're doing the best to do so.
Posted by Dirk at June 26, 2007 08:35 PMNever trust or believe a Republican. NEVER!
Posted by Judith at June 26, 2007 10:44 PMWhile the Congress slugs play politics, we now have 3,567 dead Americans. We have lost 567 since January of this year. We will reach 4,000 before Christmas. Oh well, it's none of the children of those in the Congress, except one or two.
Posted by Judith at June 26, 2007 11:24 PMI will consider the dam has broken if the republicans pressure Cheney into early retirement and propose a VP replacement who is not insane.
It could be a mistake to fantasize about any political turn in this constitutional crisis until the Office of the Vice President is downsized and Cheney is gone.
I caught part of Lugar's speech in the Senate and heard him answer a few questions on the News Hour; and it is difficult to say whether his stance inspires any hope. Lugar wants to remain deferential at all costs to an untrustworthy president. Care must be taken not to embarrass the leader. Good republicans aspire to change the mission in Iraq while setting to rest the notion that they are distancing themselves from their president.
This crisis will not be over until Bush shows some evidence, any evidence really, that he intends to modify his Iraq policy along the lines that Congress suggests. When Bush can no longer obscure himself under the gargantuan shadow of his Henchman-in-Chief, Dick Cheney, perhaps then we can talk about republican schisms, and breathe easier. But not until then.
Posted by Copeland at June 27, 2007 01:31 AMWill Cheney be forced to put a finger in the dyke?
Posted by TIKI AL at June 27, 2007 08:56 AM"I will consider the dam has broken if the republicans pressure Cheney into early retirement and propose a VP replacement who is not insane." -(Copeland)
-Why should Republicans do this? Cheney is merely the apogee of what a Republican is; he no longer pretends to be a Republican, but actually is a Republican.
The mistake you make here is a simple confusion in terms in that you assume some Republicans are not like Cheney.
Nor are Republicans 'insane' by any means. The problem lies in the fact that they are not insane, but something much worse; a Republican cannot plead guilty by virtue of insanity or psychosis.
It would be charitable to attribute Republicanism to a mere sickness.
The 'dam will not be broken' until there are no Republicans.
Posted by Jill Bains at June 27, 2007 12:23 PM