How many time have a said it? Its a waste of time supporting the dems. they have betrayed this country just as the repukes have. the dems are the problem not the solution. I will not support my enemies.
Posted by jj at September 26, 2007 03:23 PMI'm blowing kisses to Harkin, as he wasn't one of them.....this time. Maybe I will forgive him, IF and WHEN I feel sure this isn't some game in which they all participate, each one taking his/her turn to vote as a Repugly.
The wind sure has been blowing oddly in Congress the last couple of weeks. Something is up, I'm sure of it, maybe a hurricane.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 03:24 PMAIPAC. Plain and simple. Fucking AIPAC.
Posted by tempus at September 26, 2007 03:27 PMDon't plan on taking shots nor do I have to. I predicted this long ago.
The posturing has been for a political show and your wing of the Party has for all practical purposes been ignored due to reality.
I would be upset also
Posted by jj at September 26, 2007 03:36 PMOk, the scheduling of this vote is weird , for one thing. I saw this in the comment section over at TPM, in defense of Obsma not showing up for the vote on this one:
Obama is in New Hampshire trying to become our next President. Majority Leader Reid said last night that there would be no vote on this amendment in the near future, so Senator Obama had no reason to expect that this vote would be happening today. The announcement that the amendment would come up for a vote today didn't happen until 12:30pm. What was Senator Obama supposed to do, hop on a private jet and fly straight back to the Capitol? It's not like his vote would've changed the outcome.
And then there's Ballslinger over at Columbia U, who surely took his orders from on high. No other excuse for that idiotic speech of his.
I'm getting VERRRY funny vibes the last few days. Is it the harvest moon? Are we going to actually attack Iran? WTF is going on???
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 03:42 PMHey, maybe they're getting ready to assassinate another Dem icon. Could be Obama OR Edwards.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 03:54 PMHillary voted for it, as did Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer, and Armed Services Committee chair Carl Levin...
Not the brightest bulbs in the box.
Posted by Christopher at September 26, 2007 03:57 PMI also am getting very funny vibes from the past 6 or so days. I have been critical and angry with the DLC-Weak Tea Dems for months, but they have outdone themselves. The convenience of "not having the votes" simply doesn't explain hwat appears to be very deliberate and willing collaboration with the Administration for bad ideas, bad nominations, bad legislation, and bad advice. And it all corresponds with the media cornoation of Hillary as the inevitable nominee of the party---the choice of Dems and Republicans alike to hear it from Bush.
I do not see anyone in even the Bluest precincts marching in the streets and telling Congress to provide a open-checkbook for was in Iraq. The Dems are not afraid of repercussions from citizen voters. So that leaves only the corporate and lobbying class (IMHO).
I think something is seriously wrong with this picture. It is not politics as usual.
Posted by gtash at September 26, 2007 03:58 PMI agree....i am disappointed with hillary; and levin, stabenow, durbin, lautenburg, meneddez, cardin, murray and others who voted against the 2002 iraq authorization......
Just do not know what happened; they say it was a waterdown version....what was water-downed?
I am seriously thinking about Dodd for now;
Hey Steve: are you still supporting Hillary's campaign for president???
Posted by Christopher at September 26, 2007 04:06 PMJust leave him alone, Christopher.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 04:23 PMI can't imagine saying anything positive about Hillary now. She is a leper to me.
Posted by MarkL at September 26, 2007 04:30 PM"I think something is seriously wrong with this picture. It is not politics as usual."
Indeed. It seems that half the Dems are in cahoots w/the Repukes and war-loving lobbyists - there's no other logical explanation. Most Dem voters want to end to the Iraq War and to keep the US out of Iran. Who do these clowns in congress think they represent?
Posted by cds at September 26, 2007 04:31 PMWhen I first thought it, it was just tongue-in-cheek. But then I realized that it was one of those funny crystal-clear moments, like another one I had back in 2002. Back then, I was driving across I-80, had the radio on to a local station, no clue which one, but likely in Reagan's hometown area. There was a guy being interviewed who was going on and on and on about this Senator, and I thought to myself that the Republicon bullhorn had sure targeted this Senator, since it was an Illinois radio station, and the interviewee was going on about a Senator from an entirely different state, which seemed weird. Why would a local station be all that interested in some other state's Senator? Not all that long afterwards the Senator being discussed, Paul Wellstone was dead. I still think he was assassinated, and that day the Republican grave-diggers were preparing the ground.
Probably is "just" a bomb strike on Iran. Don't know what it is, but something is up. They're preparing the ground again.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 04:48 PMPutin is in Tehran October 16th. That means that the attack on Iran must happen before he arrives and concludes a defence pact in return for access to Iranian oil and gas.
Not long to go.
Fucking AIPAC.
Posted by walrus at September 26, 2007 05:01 PMIt is absolutely crucial to understand that the Reps and Dems only represent the interests of those that given them the millions.
The rest of us are just the poor saps who give the money to pay for the war. This never was a democracy check your history books but now its not even a representative republic.
The gobal war for oil is on and the sheeple remain morons
I think it's time for Steve Soto to quit referring to people who disagree with him as "trolls." That term is meaningless because it is thoughtless.
Posted by Toby Petzold at September 26, 2007 05:27 PMOT
If anyone is interested, Michael Moore will face off with the insurance industry tomorrow on the Oprah Winfrey show. Should be interesting.
Posted by Judith at September 26, 2007 05:30 PMPutin is in Tehran October 16th
Maybe that's the ground they're preparing-- Putin's grave.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 05:40 PMDorgin was on AAR just now saying that the Kyl/Lieberman amendment wasn't all that important because the State Dept had already labeled the whole of Iran a terrorist state. He's right, technically, but it was stupid of the dems to fall for the hysterical wailing about Ahmadinejad being the reincarnation of Hitler that's been going on all week. The Dems were just afraid, once again, of being labeled terrorist sympathizers if they didn't play along with the narrative. Really, everyone's been moaning about the "fact" that if Bush decides to do the dirty deed, no one will be able to stop him, so what does this silly-ass, non-binding "sense of the senate" nonsense matter anyhow?
Think about it, all the world leaders are in town; Bush wants distract people from the total bust of "Surge Week," and make people forget that Iran had agreed to work with the IAEA just so he can try to push through another set of sanctions on Iran. Sanctions that are still being debated, and not just by Russia. He sends out the flying monkeys to demonize Ahmadinejad with so much noise and righteous outrage, and everyone's falling over themselves to call him names to show how tough they are, lest they be labeled sympathizers. Of course, he knows he can count on Ahmadinejad to play the part; just as he can count on the Dems to be too spineless to go against the tide. Just as he can count on progressives to lose heart and maybe walk away, resigned to an Iran attack. Face it, he plays the game better because everyone else is so goddamn predictable.
Posted by iamcoyote at September 26, 2007 06:01 PMAs for Steve, he's had to swallow some pretty bitter fruit today. Next week, his cognitive dissonance may have kicked back in and he will forgive Hillary, or he may thank us for keeping a corner of his mind open to this liklihood. Either way, I thank him for allowing us to say what we have to say, even though many of us disagreee with him. He censos so very lightly, and I appreciate a forum where different opinions can be chewed and savored, swallowed or spat out.
Posted by Julie at September 26, 2007 06:01 PMSo, if the Neocons, the Democrats, and DLC Hillary Ventures, Inc. (tm) work together to start a war in Iran before the 2008 elections, how many of you will still be ignorant enough to vote for her in the general election?
If Neville Chamberlain were alive today, he'd be a "Third-Way", "Centrist", DLC Democrat.
Posted by Tampa Student at September 26, 2007 06:51 PMSteve all I can say is welcome to the club. One of the main reasons I have really cut back posting here or anywhere lately is because I came to that realization a little while back. I think it was the Fisa Vote in early August that really did it for me. Now add to this... The bogus Moveon censure vote, now this vote....I just don't understand. I mean I used to say to myself, how can the leadership let this happen. Now I find myself saying, the leadership let it happen because they must agree with it.
If there is a difference in the parties, it's very little in regards to most important and serious issues. To me the only difference at this point , the REpublicans at least are more upfront about their stances in regards to GWOT policies. Democrats just play along and pretend they are representing the will of the people in regards to the GWOT policies, but then enough just capitulate to the Bush agenda policies. It's either that or they are really that stupid and weak playing Charlie Brown to Republican Lucy. The only consistently bright spot for me is all my representatives tend to vote the way I would like them (Kennedy, Kerry and Barney Frank)...but even that is just an hollow victory of sorts..sigh.
I must say, and I know people will knock me for it, I am ready to just sit the next election out....and I'm not proud to say it but it is the way I feel right now and if the election were this year, I probably would.
kkKarl Rove and his merry band of trolls are jumping for joy hearing that kind of talk. I mean a former politically active but faithful unaffiliated voter who donated money to democrats and voted straight ticket democrat (first time ever) in 2004 sitting out the election because they don't think there's a difference between the two parties. (btw and off topic... whatever happened to all those Democratic congressional subpoena's that Bushco blew off..any one go to jail, anyone from the democratic party enforce them ...what a joke)
Until the democratic party fears the large majority of their party (whose views currently match a large majority of american public) more than the beltway punditry conventional wisdom and repuke wrath in regards their votes, things won't change. Democrats are using us and playing us for dupes too with all their rhetoric that rarely matches their actions.
No defending the indefensible. Worst Administration Ever....worst Congress Ever. Who needs rubberstamp republicans when you have a bunch of double crossing democrats playing right along with this charade and enabling Bush and the repuke agenda at every vote.
Posted by emal at September 26, 2007 06:53 PMI too am depressed and confused about the inexplicable failure of the Democrats to either acknowledge the clearly expressed will of their constituents or at least resist the raping of the constitution. From always surprised bleatings at the perennial refusal of the fascists to respond to subpoenas, oversight or human decency, to constantly rolling over and actually supporting grossly anti-American destruction of our entire civil society, their behavior defies logic.
Tempus is certainly correct in blaming AIPAC, but I don't think it's a sufficient explanation. The entire Beltway industry of corporate owned/supported lobbyists, advisors and "pundits" has warped the weak minded and intellectually lazy Representatives who have to spend at least half of their waking hours begging for money to maintain their worthless careers. And maintaining their "careers" is clearly the ONLY concern we've seen on display recently. What we're facing is a decades long process which has so terribly corrupted the process of "politics" that no normally ethical person would demean themselves to participate.
Like Steve, I have no answer, although I want desperately to find one. Many generations have faced deeper crises than we have (to date). They have had to sacrifice and struggle mightily just to persevere. The entire sick industry of Washington must somehow, be expunged, like Herakles flushing the Augean stables. It's patently obvious by now, that only a handful of those currently infesting the body politic are genuinely liberal in their spirit. The rest need to be flushed like the "black water" they are.
Whether we will be able to do that, I am increasingly doubtful.
Posted by DeminNewJ at September 26, 2007 07:18 PMemal, I agree with most of what you said, though I'll still vote for whichever Dem there is, just because I know the Reps will be much worse. I've got a mortgage to consider, and it seems my property taxes are more and more what's keeping the state afloat. The Dems are better at giving states what they need, I think. I won't be giving any candidates money, except one local one who's a serious challenger for a fookin' 'puke whose time has come.
But yeah, it was FISA for me, too; it showed how little the Dems learned in how the game is played. It's disappointing that they won't even try to drum up some kinda strategy.
I'm not sure how much they agree with the Reps' foreign policy, though. I tend more toward the "protect the Village" mentality that digby talks about - it explains a lot of their actions so far. And wasn't it Twain who said "I don't belong to an organized Party, I'm a Democrat?" Seems they haven't felt a need to change since then, why start now?
Still, did you hear about the Federal judge who rule 2 Patriot Act provisions (concerning FISA) unlawful? It's at TPM.
Posted by iamcoyote at September 26, 2007 07:21 PM"...I am ready to just sit the next election out....and I'm not proud to say it but it is the way I feel right now and if the election were this year, I probably would."
I know the feeling, emal. I was so very pissed at Nader in the past, but here I am, thinking that the pot needs to boil a little longer.
Well, actually, I'm wanting to catch the attention of these Dem assholes NOW, trying and trying to think of ways. I've already proposed that we (those of us who resent what our "Dems are doing) should all get together and choose a day, any specific day, and switch party affiliations, or all get our heads together and screw up the polls, when called, polling for a specific low-ranking Republican... or Bart Simpson. Anything, I don't care what it is. Just let me do SOMETHING to show my displeasure in a way that will be heard.
they have betrayed this country just as the repukes have
The big difference is you'll support any incumbent republi-con who comes along. You mouth their party line as surely as a crack whore mouths a fetid smegma covered unwashed penis for a buck.
I think it's time for Steve Soto to quit referring to people who disagree with him as "trolls."
Here are your choices of what you should be called:
a. Assholes.
b. Traitors.
c. Sell your children to a Tijuana donkey show for a buck.
d. Republi-con and proud! My whole party is a scandal!
My good god. Here I am, a Broke Back Mountain Hollywood liberal bonesmoker faggot, and I knew what to do long ago. First, go down to your local voter registrar and change your affiliation to Independent. Next, load your old voter registration card in a letter to Howard Dean. Third, explain to him you will donate nothing to incumbent Democrats who voted to support war, and that you will find those candidates who deserve your money. Fourth, walk the walk and talk the talk. Invite Dem and Indy challengers here to state their positions. Support them.
Democratic National Committee
430 S. Capitol St. SE
Washington, DC 20003
Stop whining and stop acting like you're surprised that these Congresswhores are doing anything but dressing for the lobbyist cotillion that packs the military-industrialist's cash up their shiny Congresswhore butts.
Sheesh! You people can be real nancy-boys sometimes. What next? Are you going to start ordering blender drinks with little umbrellas at the next TLC Convention?
Bring the fucking Trolls on. I'll kick their asses by myself if I have to.
Hey, did you see Hill on the debates? Sounds EXACTLY like Bush explaining why Eye-ran is a threat. Yup, she saw their playbook and she is going to run their plays.
Posted by phidipides at September 26, 2007 10:24 PMDid anyone see some hearing the Senate had today, with Pace and Gates? Pace was trying to explain why gay sex was bad for the military, turns out it's only outside the bounds of marriage sex that offends him, which except for MA makes gay sex illegal, when a bunch of Code Pink ladies, I'm guessing, started speaking out and interrupting.
Byrd lost it, adjourned the hearing while they slowly and uneventfully removed the troubling women, who were shouting out no war for oil, no more killing, no war, all the peacenik stuff.
Byrd at one point was yelling at the protestors, and Harkin did too, then the cameras settled down after the ladies were removed, and they continued, but both Byrd and Harkin were so offended by the protests, which weren't really that bad, pretty meek really, but annoying.
But you should have seen the disgusted look that the great Senator Tom Harkin, IA was giving those people. People who's voices are not heard by the politicians.
And that's why those assholes voted for that stupid bill, why they keep giving Bush all the Billions he wants, why that corporate tool Hillary voted for that meaningless sense of the Senate.
They are completely out of touch with what the vast majority of people in this country have to deal with. What we want, what we do, what we pay. All that matters to these old fucking men and women is the money they need to raise for their next election.
Policy is just an intellectual exercise, if we're lucky, foreign policy is all posturing and PR.
I like Edwards and Richardson, Dodd except for the entrenched politician part, but maybe Dennis Kucinich is the one to support, I'm pretty sure his persona is indeed how he is, the radical, er liberal, who actually means what he says, and it ain't anything the corpse want to hear.
Posted by Duckman GR at September 26, 2007 11:04 PMHey, did you see Hill on the debates? Sounds EXACTLY like Bush explaining why Eye-ran is a threat. Yup, she saw their playbook and she is going to run their plays.
Bingo.
Israel's lobby is in full battle mode and AIPAC's queen, Hillary Clinton, is leading the charge.
Posted by Christopher at September 27, 2007 03:18 AMI heard that Hillary was also evasive about Social Security in the debate. Wouldn't it just take the cake if she was elected and did a Bill/Nafta thing with SS? A kind of Nixon-goes-to-China move? Because once elected, it won't be enough to be in the WH for 4 years - she'll want 8, and she'll work for her reelection from Day One.
I've been trying to figure out why I loathe her so much, and I think it's partly because it's all about her, not about us. We're just props. The 'American people' exist just to further the personal ambitions of a couple of aristocratic families. (Hint: one's named Clinton)
Posted by nyc at September 27, 2007 04:53 AMA link to Raw Story. More evidence (as if it were needed) that the Dems and the Queen are not about to resist the Republicans and the Administration. COme Jan 1, 2009, they will adjourn to the Senate Cloakroom and the House equivalent, and they will exchange clothing and briefcases, come out and resume the war, resume the destruction of the country and all we thought we stood for.
Posted by gtash at September 27, 2007 06:05 AMSteve I'm happy you have finally seen the light. I try to explain these things to you but I guess it takes you a while to catch on.
Posted by JohnT at September 27, 2007 06:06 AMIf Democrats are trying to prove to voters that they are tough enough to take on security threats to the US, then they have to prove to voters they are tough enough to take on the threats posed by the Republicans to the security of the US.
IF the Democratic leadership cannot do that, then it is up to the voters to protect the security of the US. Therein lies the problem.....this administration has removed from voters all the necessary access to information that would allow an informed vote.
If it can finally be admitted that the evidence of threats to the US were available before 9/11, then it should also be admitted that the evidence of this administration's threat to US security was evident before the War ON Iraq.
I remember Karl Rove's speech right after the 2000 vote, when he flies to Florida to drum up his special brand of confusing all the issues. You cannot watch that clip and think that anything good was going to come from that quarter. Senator Bob Graham, who was in a position to KNOW, said it early on, Impeach Bush.
The consequence of this deceit that is hardest to bear is that our young people are the ones who will have to continue dying for our inability to stop this horror. Sons and daughters who will never again walk through the door - for thousands of families, part of THEM dies in Iraq every day. For those who make it back from the 'Front' they bring back that horror - how many innocent Iraqis do you have to kill to be haunted for the rest of your life? Just one. That's the hardest part to accept responsibility for. We voted that in.
Voting has become, like the Geneva Convention, a quaint institution. The Board sends out it's proxy vote letters and we submit our votes. The Board will take care of us. The Republican Board, the Democrat Board, they will take care of things so we don't have to.
I like hearing you folks fight back. Unfortunately the War Infrastructure is firmly in place - you get to vote for who operates the machinery but you don't get to vote for 'whether' we continue our war against the world to protect our security. There once was a great country who proved it's "exceptionalism" by NOT warring against everyone else. Now there is a country with exceptionally great warring against everyone else.
We will also lose young folks to the war we wage on ourselves, when military personnel shoot into the crowds here in this country to protect the Republican or Democratic Board we voted in, and who deem us enemy combatants. It is strange that of all the information we DON'T have access to, this 'enemy combatant' status is information we do have access to.
Well Steve, thanks for keeping us as informed as possible - I remember the week you got 'hot', sometime last year when we all begged you to reconsider one of your posts about something or other.....and you conceded! Now that got my attention. You listened and read up more on the subject and responded to the feedback. After that your work just heated up!
you heated up!
you took this administration to task!
I saw that.
Thanks,
Marian
Posted by Marian at September 27, 2007 06:26 AM
FISA was the eye opener for me, too. I say no more money to the Dems but I don't think they really care - they have plenty coming in from the same sources as the Repubs. I get a feeble little letter in the guise of a survey every once in a while with a request for cash at the end. I toss it. I'm sick at heart - thought we had a little hope for our country after the '06 elections.
We can't even protect our children from lead paint. Can't afford to annoy the Chinese since they are financing our deficit.
... but both Byrd and Harkin were so offended by the protests, which weren't really that bad, pretty meek really, but annoying.
Ok, that does it, I take back my kisses for Harkin. I guess it just reinforces for me that I end up being a little too thrilled when they throw a crumb to us voters now and then. I've been disgusted with him lately, anyway. Time for him to realize that we owe him nothing.
Don't toss those requests, send them back with your comments, make them pay the postage.
Posted by Duckman GR at September 27, 2007 10:25 AMThe Kyl-Lieberman Sense of Senate Resolution on Iran wasn't waterdowned, but waterboarded.
Posted by The Bite at September 27, 2007 04:35 PMThe Kyl-Lieberman Sense of Senate Resolution on Iran wasn't waterdowned, but waterboarded.
More and Better Democrats!
Posted by The Bite at September 27, 2007 04:36 PMOK Steve, Y'all here have had a bad summer in DC. Can't say I'm sorry here. Your time for compromise was in the spring, before good news started to come from Iraq. And before people started figuring out what leaving Iraq would look like. "The wait till..." hurt ya a bunch. The cheap price the WH paid for the last funding hurt ya a lot. FISA was a godsend(small 'g'). And finally, Eli Pariser and his "great" ad in the NYTimes pushed ya over the top. His commercials on TV and radio must stop. They're are only pushing more people away.
The polls were a little deceiving too. We must remember how many people were behind this president earlier. Where his approval ratings were. Events and bad news have driven them down, but, Americans still want the feelings they had when his approval ratings were high. General Petraeus reminded Americans of that and he's indicated a path back to those feelings in the near term. Last years election was more against the GOP's culture of corruption than the war. If you have victories next year it will be because of this and not Iraq. Republican's seem to have lost the trust of the electorate for the Congress. The WH still has it, just not Congress. Our only positive is this leadersheep's bumbling everything.
Look, I'll say it again, no I won't. General Petraeus is the right man for the job. We need to let him do the job he was tasked for. Let him bring out troops home as he sees fit. We need to trust him here.
I don't believe Democrats, even Republicans too, like to be pushed by organizations like these 527's. I don't believe our fellow citizens like this tone that's prevalent today. We shouldn't 'hate' others for politics. Life is too short for this type of emotion. Pardon me, but, didn't we learn something from September 11th? NYC sure did and as a result, when the blackout happened a few years ago, virtually no violence, little to no crime happened. Everybody took a holiday. This, we need to build on.
Europe has been moving in our direction lately. First Germany and Angela Muerkel, then Sakozy. Seems Putin, the mass of immigrants, and the recent attacks that have been uncovered and prevented are re-enforcing things that America has been saying for a while. I think Putin really is pushing Europe towards us a lot. I also feel that that attack Israel made on the city of Dayr az Zawr on September 6th is very important. Something happened here and it's upset the applecart over there in Syria and Iran. This was a significant attack, something very reminicent of the Israeli attack on Saddam's nuke plant in the 80's. They did it again, and this ones going to change things over there. People in Tehran aren't going to be sleeping too well.
As for the numbers, magic numbers wouldn't have made much of a difference. You would need something like the 89th Congress, and that one didn't fix everything either. We were still in Vietnam and many soldiers were still to die.
Hey Steve, for what it's worth. I still appreciated ya. Your heart's in the right place. I just wish your politics was too.
Take a holiday Steve, get away from this place, I just did for a couple of days. We'll see ya soon.
Posted by peter at September 27, 2007 08:35 PMIt's amazing how quicly 'troll' came to means 'that guy who doesn't agree with me' rather than what it used to means: 'That guy who is trying to stop all conversation by being abusive to other people'.
Peter, what public opinion polls are you reading? Americans hate the war MORE now than in the spring, not less. 'People' are not looking at Iraq and seeing a stable future. COMGRESS is ignoring the will of it's people, proving that Democratic solutions to this problem are not workable in a system as broken and corrupt as this one. I would be more afraid than you are right now, because now we're only left with undemocratic ones to pursue.
Posted by Soullite at September 28, 2007 06:15 AM