Bullies love a bully; a bully for America is what the military want in a Prez, and that's what they got. Fuck 'em!
Posted by Mal Feasance at October 13, 2007 08:52 PMSometimes it takes a coup d'etat to stop a coup d'etat...and it has become quite evident after seven torturous Bush administration years that the criminals inside the Bush administration have been conducting a coup d'etat against our democracy.
Per U.S. military rules and regulations, a soldier has the right to no carry out an illegal order, whether given by a superior officer or, I presume, some insane civilians.
Thus, when the criminal Bush administration ordered our troops into Iraq following the initial attempt to take out Saddam Hussein from the air, our military leaders could have "Just said NO!!" and asked the criminals in the Bush administration where the U.S. Constitution's Article 1 official congressional declaration of war against Iraq was. Or our officers could have asked the criminals in the Bush administration where the official U.N. mandate authorizing military intervention in Iraq was.
Oh, wait, I keep forgetting. By early 2003, many of the top officers in the U.S. military who might have opposed the criminals in the Bush administration had been replaced by "faith-based" officers like Sanchez and Petraeus, self-righetous warriors, who would blindly follow orders and gladly lead the soldiers under them into hell itself if so ordered by the "faith-based" criminals in the worst administration in American history.
Posted by The Oracle at October 13, 2007 09:30 PMinteresting post and article
“Yeah, we’d call it a coup d’etat,” Colonel Fontenot said. “Do you want to have a coup d’etat?.."
in answer to this question, i can now give a definite answer of 'yes' - if that's what it would take to restore consitutional order to the united states. #1 because there already was a coup, a neo-fascist coup in 2000 by the right wing neo-cons. and #2 it's obvious that the spinless democrats aren't going to do a damn thing to restore the constitution, in fact they are without a doubt making it worse by nearly all their actions, from expanding warrantless wiretapping to funding the endless disaster in Iraq to supporting a new war with iran. in fact, the political elites in americe have gone insane.
and i'd support the military saying no to the bushivites both about iraq and iran - if you want to call that a coup, so be it.
in fact, the military should go in and arrest Bush and Darth and the whole unholy hive of those torturing scoundrels and begin the high crimes and war crimes tribunals.
useless congress and the courts ain't gonna do it. the american system is broken and that includes the mainstream media - none of it works to protect liberty and democracy.
Posted by michael72 at October 13, 2007 10:03 PMI am a liberal, a Democrat, and a veteran.
The military instructors are correct.
We do not want the military overruling the civilian government. Even when the civilian government, as in the case of George W. Bush and Richard Cheney, is composed of borderline facists.
Sometimes the cure is even worse than the disease.
This is one of those times.
Kudos to the brass for keeping their principles and some of their honor in the face of extreme provocation.
Posted by joel hanes at October 14, 2007 12:00 AMIt's the duty of Congress to restore constitutional order. Either they are fearful of doing it, and are cowards, or they favor the expansion of a proto-fascist, total surveillance military state, and are criminals on the same footing as Bush and Cheney, or they are venal and indifferent to what happens to the country, in which case they are traitors, or they are uncomprehending, as they hand monstrous authority to the executive and legalize the unlawful, having faith in the idea that they are helping to protect the nation, an option of fools.
We have a long and painful road to travel as a country, if Congress and its leadership won't take the political risk necessary to restore constitutional order. I don't think it is a coup d'etat if senior military officers refuse to obey unlawful or unconstitutional orders; the trouble is that they can be releived of their command and new and obedient officers can be found who will go along with war crimes and unlawful orders.
A coup takes place only if generals or other high officers move to depose the civilian heads and take executive authority themselves. And we don't want that under any circumstances. The Constitution left it to Congress to use impeachment to depose men like Bush and Cheney. Any other mechanism is likely to lead to the end of our Republic.
Posted by Copeland at October 14, 2007 01:21 AM
joel hanes: "Kudos to the brass for keeping their principles and some of their honor in the face of extreme provocation."
Fuck them with a rusty chainsaw for being spineless yes-men, they could have said NO and immediately resigned. That is not a coup.
I totally agree with Copeland, it is the Constitutional RESPONSIBILITY of Congress to remove the war criminals in the Bush Regime. I have slowly come to the conclusion that the Republic is on its death bed UNLESS we reverse EVERYTHING Bush/Cheney has done since January 2001. God help us if the military has to do it.
Posted by gay veteran at October 14, 2007 07:52 AMThe military tracks with the Republican Party because they understand that all foreign adventures are merely proxies and allegories for the domestic factional struggle.
Posted by Frank Wilhoit at October 14, 2007 07:55 AMWell, I agree that I dont' want a coup d'etat and that the military *refusing to obey the civilian command* would be a coup d'etat of no mean proportions. But I also think it incument up on the military not to let themselves be used in a transparently political way by a corrupt civilian administration--by that I mean that if a military leader or soldier is asked to "speak his mind" and say what his "professional opinion" is, by the presdient, then he should go ahead and give it regardless of any prior secret agreement (such as that between petraeus and the white house) to fudge the opinions of the troops and the leadership. I don't mind being told "the military will not comment on the pgrogress of the war" but don't drag the military commanders in front of congress and the press and let them piss on our legs and tell us its raining. No more military testimony before congress if the military are not to have an opinion--neither going against the president, nor supporting the president, should be permitted.
aimai
Posted by aimai at October 14, 2007 08:22 AMNaturally, this goes against the grain of the Colin Powell School of service, which is to salute the commander in chief as he takes the military and the country down into hell, even if you feel he is a misguided fool or worse, an incompetent.
You should have added "as long as the commander in chief is a Republican." I don't recall Colin Powell saluting commander in chief Bill Clinton on the issue of gays in the military.
Colin Powell is a whore for the Republicans, for the corporate ruling class that employs him. No more, no less.
Despite what has happened in the last seven years, I do not agree with the notion that military people ought to be overruling the civilian leadership. As eager as we are for some one, anyone, to oppose the Bush/Cheney Junta and their disastrous policies, we should not be looking to generals to save us.
The Republicans are the ones who want to throw away the constitution. We have to be the ones who fight to protect it. Our constitution provides a check on executive power: the congress. If the congress had been doing its job, we would not be where we are. If the congress would do its job now, we would be getting out of this disaster.
Posted by James E. Powell at October 14, 2007 08:44 AMThe military is simply an arm of the US government, primarily the executive branch. The current executive branch has tried to bypass the Constitution by creating a private army of mercenaries beholden only to Georgie and Dickie.
If the real US troops overthrew the government, it would be very bad. If Blackwater did, it would be Orwell's 1984. Congress, do what you are supposed to do, reign in the lunatics. Run around with butterfly nets if you have to.
They can resign if they oppose an order. I don't recall any having done so, MG John Batiste did retire early rather than continue enabling this fiasco.
Posted by Coloradodem at October 14, 2007 09:34 AMIt's unprecedented in American history for so many retired generals to openly criticize the commander in chief. Yes, it goes against the military mindset to be a quitter and resign while on active duty. Those who opposed Bush, like Shinseki, were pushed out. The generals' job is to carry out the orders of the commander in chief. It's not their fault we elected such an incompetent one.
Posted by howard hughes blues at October 14, 2007 05:40 PMGenerals refusing illegal orders is not a coup.
And Fontenot (or Steve) is correct in saying that it is the responsibility of (pardon me while I choke on this notion) "wiser heads in the political process to stop these disasters."
Here's the key. If enough Generals and Colonels refused to carry out Cheney's insnaity, and resigned, yes, true believers would have been advanced to replace them.
And the Nation would see that there was a serious breach between the military and the White House, and would have put a whole lot more pressure on Congress to act properly and responsibly. And those resignations and the publicity they would have garnered, failed media or no, would have given support to the frightened in the Democratic Caucus, and a slew of opportunities to ask questions.
How so, you ask?
Well, General officers and commands require Congressional approvals. Which means hearings and investigations and questions on why these officers are all resigning, and so on. And more media attention, more questins of Bush, and thus more incomprehensible stupidity from Bush, and so on. And a very real probability in my mind that Congress might have pulled Cheney back from the Iraqi brink.
Which is how it's supposed to work. And maybe some impeachments or "retirements" from the executive branch. No coup d' etat, just a working political system.
But the military chose, like that useless, criminal coward Colin Powell, to go along to get along.
So when Lt Gen. Sanchez decries the war execution, I say thanks, but it's a little late pal, but better than nothing, I suppose.
General Sanchez said he was convinced that the American effort in Iraq was failing the day after he took command, in June 2003. Asked why he waited until nearly a year after his retirement to voice his concerns publicly, he responded that it was not the place of active-duty officers to challenge lawful orders from the civilian authorities.
A day after taking command he knew it was a failure, and he did nothing, nothing! The proper and correct response would have been to resign his precious commission and commence criticisms immediately. Thanks for protecting the Constitution, Ricardo, thanks a lot.
And that's another point to consider. They swear oaths to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, there's nothing in their oath about covering for some jackanape moron like Bush, especially when he's dismantling that very Constitution you've sworn to uphold and defend.
Posted by Duckman GR at October 14, 2007 08:05 PMEverything Duckman GR said is right on the money, totally.
It's no coup to resign your commission and publicly declare that the president is a worthless bag of shit and is about to wreck America on the shores of some foreign land.
A coup is when the tanks roll onto the White House lawn, not when honorable men refuse dishonorable orders and quit and talk about it.
Part of the problem here is the Pentagon long ago threw its lot in with the worst, most criminal corporations in our country, the same companies that own today's White House.
Posted by Brian Bell at October 14, 2007 09:12 PMWhy do I keep replaying scenes from Judgement at Nuremberg in my pea-brain? Those "Good Germans" even the "war criminals" were after all "just following orders."
Posted by theExile at October 15, 2007 07:49 PMAnyone who seriously compares America and the situation in Iraq to the Nazis and WWII truly has a pea for a brain. At least theExile as acknowledged that.
Brian Bell is right on the money.
Posted by CaptainReality at October 19, 2007 12:24 AM