A million thanks for pointing this out, Steve. Fighting the Ottomon Empire isn't really gonna get us very far right now. I'm sure Armenians are good people, and I'm sure they're an interest group, but we have to pick our battles right now, and you said it perfectly, this will only serve to piss of the Turks. Not good timing and someone had to call Pelosi on this. Good post.
Posted by Jeff Dinelli at October 17, 2007 08:00 AMPelosi must be the most inept Speaker we've had in recent times. I'm not sure if it's planned or she is just not capable.
Posted by JohnT at October 17, 2007 08:16 AMSteve, we are going down the drain. I had dearly hoped that the Gulf War, the one that fucked me right up, would be be the last. Oh no, 'tis but the first, apparently.'
Posted by tempus at October 17, 2007 08:32 AMI've got a different take on the issue.
The reaction of the Turks to something as trivial as a symbolic resolution recognizing an historical wrong speaks volumes about the nature of our relationship with Turkey.
Doesn't it bother anyone that our relationship with such an important ally in the region can be jeopardized by this? The Turks don't like us. But our troops are dependent on their cooperation for 70% of their support. And a dumb resolution like this is going to make them cut us off? Scary.
But yes, it's a trivial matter. Unless you're an Armenian. Who've been pushing for this for a very long time.
And it just never seems to be "a good time".
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 08:33 AMAbsolutely agree with you; I am most shamed by my rep - tom lantos - on bringing this to foreign relations committee....he does not even have time to meet his own local people but he has time for this...
Ashamed of tom lantos and i gotta tell this
"Nancy, your sense of priorities are questionable"
And I would like to know whose in both of these houses in congress are bowing to armenian interests....
Posted by mp at October 17, 2007 08:44 AMOne thing House Dems could do to restore America's global standing after the beating it's taken from the GOP & Blue Dog Dems is to reaffirm American values like the Constitution, Bill of Rights and freedom from unreasonable search and siezure. It would go a long way towards rebuilding the nation's moral authority from the nadir it currently occupies and make the US less of a laughing stock when it criticizes abuse of and acts to promote human rights.
Presently the House is preparing to consider FISA remediation, ending torture, restoring habeas corpus and closing Guantanamo Bay concentration camp. We can affect this by urging our Representatives to support the FISA Modernization Act and oppose the RESTORE Act.
Scarecrow at Firedoglake has more:
Congressional Democrats Need Some FISA "Encouragement"
Call your Representative about this legislation today. And be sure to thank them for all their good work on your behalf, even if that is a crock.
Posted by Pvt. Keepout at October 17, 2007 08:45 AMI guess if the Armenians are fair game what prevents the Turks from doing the same to the Kurds.
Turkey wants to start a "new front in the Iraq War". The Turks have had a long hatred of the Kurds. The Kurds are an ancient culture and have never (peacefully) had their own state.
The Turks would like nothing better than to keep 25 million Kurds oppressed, with no autonomy.
The Turks have 10 million Kurds living in Turkey (20% of the population), yet they are not allowed to speak their own language.
Do the Turks really think that pursuing Kurdish rebels in Iraq will stop the Kurds from wanting what they have never had?
Time for the Turks to lay off!
Unfortunately, the U.S. is in no position to preach to other countries about peaceful resolutions.
Posted by Seven of Six at October 17, 2007 08:51 AMI was wondering when we'd bring this up.
We've been irritating the Turks for some time now. Invading and destabilizing Iraq and aiding Kurdistan, turning a blind eye toward a longstanding Kurdish terror group (the focus of the current shelling) and now the Armenian genocide resolution, which has ALWAYS been a "hot-button" item for them. The Turks really, really can't deal with this little genocide incident in their past. They aren't Germans.
Snark's right, when's a "good" time if you're going to do it? It's been 8 decades so far. And steve's right, now seems NOT a good time, objectively. Our relations with the Turks are exceptionally bad right now.
Plus, I don't see this playing very well for the Dems with the ordinary boob and the MSM. If Pelosi were doing everything else right and playing a strong game, it might be one thing. But now the "Ottoman gambit" is just another thing to get beat up over.
It's the exact kind of the thing the anti-intellectual, Know-Nothing, irresponsible Repubs can hit a home run with. History is pretty meaningless to Americans, particularly world history, unless Nazis and Hitler can make an appearance. Any chance of that?
Posted by euzoius at October 17, 2007 08:55 AMI would add that at least Pelosi knows we have the War Powers Act which is more than I can say for Jim Webb.
Posted by JohnT at October 17, 2007 08:58 AMGood point, Snark. Now you've got me....NO! You're not gonna change my mind. 8)
It's a matter of priorities, Man.
Posted by Jeff Dinelli at October 17, 2007 09:07 AMIt's a matter of priorities, Man.
Yes, national security rules the day.
Our ability to wage war in the Middle East mustn't be jeopardized.
Not a sentiment one hears expressed around here much.
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 09:13 AMI agree that Nancy should step in to stop this time wasting from addressing the current issues. Blaming the current Turkey government about the massacare in 1915 is same as blaming the current German government for the Nazi attempt of exterminating the jews.
Posted by suresh at October 17, 2007 09:37 AMYeah suresh, that would be pretty dumb. IF someone was trying to do that.
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 09:44 AMHow did this resolution come up in the first place anyway? Wouldn't American politicians be a bit miffed if Turkey passed a resolution condemning slavery? Yeah, we already know it was bad--we don't need a foreign government pointing it out.
Posted by CG at October 17, 2007 09:46 AMWhat will the Turks do without Uncle Sucker's money suck up to the Russkies. I remember when the Philippines kicked us out. Later they were begging us to come back with our money.
Posted by JohnT at October 17, 2007 10:00 AMCG--the Turks don't acknowledge that anything improper took place. They were just "dealing with" a few disloyal Armenian Christians during wartime.
Massive denial.
Yeah, we already know it was bad--we don't need a foreign government pointing it out.
So maybe Sudan has a legit gripe about the rest of the world telling them how bad the 'genocide' in Darfur is? They know. They just don't need foreign governments pointing it out.
Here's the text of the resolution if anyone's interested.
The one our good friends and allies the Turks are all enraged about.
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 10:42 AMThanks for the link, snark. Seems to me, all they want is for the event to be labeled genocide, nothing more. Looks like it's been held up as an example of genocide without the actual name for a long time - so what's the big deal for Turkey?
Maybe they see an opportunity to get the US's attention on their Kurd issues by vaguely threatening our troop supply routes with their recall of their ambassador?
In any case it looks like some of the Dems are already backing away from the resolution.
Posted by iamcoyote at October 17, 2007 11:38 AMThe Turks irrationally see calling genocide genocide as "insulting Turkishness". The went crazy over the French passing such a resolution last year, so it's not likely they're just about trying to get some leverage on some other, current issue.
This is all about emotion, denial and "honor". You know how that effects rational thinking and dealing with reality.
Posted by euzoius at October 17, 2007 11:46 AMThe reaction of people on this thread to this exemplifies exactly why groups like AIPAC are so in your face. If you're not you get dismissed as an inconvenient distraction.
Kills me how anyone who isn't demanding Congress drop everything and bring an immediate end to the occupation of Iraq is a "special interest group" that Congress is "bowing to".
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 12:05 PMSnark, your last response confuses me. Why should Congress pay more attention right now to the Armenian genocide from a hundred years ago than Iraq or the Middle East now? And why does paying more attention to Iraq, Iran, and the Middle East somehow mean we are caving to pressure from AIPAC?
Or is your point that unless you yell and scream like AIPAC and the Armenian lobby, you never get paid any attention to in this country?
Posted by Steve Soto at October 17, 2007 01:33 PMWhy should Congress pay more attention right now to the Armenian genocide from a hundred years ago than Iraq or the Middle East now?
I don't think I said they should. The commentary here leads me to believe that people think Congress shouldn't pay attention to ANYTHING BUT Iraq. I just think it's interesting that anti-war people see everyone else who petitions the government with their grievances as somehow less worthy than them. This is a symbolic resolution that recognizes a wrong done to the Armenian people. If our relationship with Turkey, upon whom we are so dependent for our operations in Iraq, is so shaky as to be jeopardized by this single resolution I think that's a pretty big issue. Why are we so dependent on the Turks who seem so willing to threaten to slit our throats if we don't bow to their wishes? And if The US caves on this what's Turkey gonna demand next to keep the supply lines to our troops open? That's the real issue here. The fact that a country that holds us in very low regard has our nuts in a vise.
And why does paying more attention to Iraq, Iran, and the Middle East somehow mean we are caving to pressure from AIPAC?
I don't think I said that either. No love lost for AIPAC around here though. Perhaps not you, but many who comment here seem to believe that everything we do in the Middle East is at the behest of the Israel Lobby and AIPAC. Now I don't think to many people would put the Armenian Lobby in the same league as AIPAC do you? Commenting that "Congress is bowing to the Armenian Lobby" struck me as a bit hyperbolic. It's not like the Armenians are asking us to invade Turkey and carve out a homeland for them. Is Congress "bowing" to sick kids when it addresses healthcare reform?
Or is your point that unless you yell and scream like AIPAC and the Armenian lobby, you never get paid any attention to in this country?
It sure doesn't hurt does it. And even when you do finally get paid attention to someone else who has their own issue is sure to complain about it and tell you, "it's not a good time right now."
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 02:03 PMBruce Fein (one of the few SANE conservatives) has a column in the Washington Times pointing out that the Armenians did their share of murdering.
Yeah, the Dems can't restore OUR Constitutional order but they have plenty of energy to stick a finger in Turkey's eye.
Posted by gay veteran at October 17, 2007 03:29 PM15 minutes for a vote on this is gonna keep anything else from happening in Congress?
Posted by snark at October 17, 2007 03:37 PMMaybe an alternate view on this Turkish mess. We'll be using Turkey as a way of redeployment out of Iraq. Mess things up with the Turks and we don't bring so many home. Maybe Nancy's trying to DELAY Gen Petraeus's plan for withdrawal. She doesn't want the president welcoming home the troops next year, brigade after brigade, month after month of our heroes coming home with a victory as wind in their sails.
Posted by peter at October 17, 2007 03:47 PMRecognizing the Armenian genocide is a duty to memory, a duty to history. The US has hardly missed an opportunity since the end of World War II, to pander to the Turks. It has been irrelevant to successive US administrations that the Turkish military has periodically seized the reigns of government or has engaged in horrendous human rights violations against political opponents.
I feel only bitterness when I hear people say "now is not a good time" to recognize genocide against the Armenian population of Turkey, that took place in 1915. I seem to remember that the last time the resolution had a chance of passing in the House, Bill Clinton was president; and the president scuttled the resolution at the eleventh hour. Past experience tends to show that "now" will never be a good time to ruffle the Turks, in the minds of Washington Beltway politicians.
It is a scandal that Turkey cannot face its own history, and a scandal that it has persecuted its own writers for "insulting Turkishness", even when those artists try to deal with this history in works of fiction.
One should recognize just how unhelpful an ally Turkey has been recently; its denial of access by road to US forces when they were entering Iraq, should give us pause to consider that an escape route through Turkey might come with strings attached, diplomatic or economic strings. Also Turkey seems willing to ignore the instability of the whole region, by threatening a major military incursion across Iraq's border. It's doubtful that they will be of any help in any case, since they only seem to be worried about how small bands of Kurdish separatists impact Turkey.
Armenians fought loyally for the Ottoman Empire when it was at war with the Western Powers in World War I, but there was an outbreak of Turkish hysteria, driven by superstition. There was a blood red moon, which thousands of Turks took as an omen to unleash hell on earth upon their own neighbors. This evolved into genocide in the true sense of the word. Armenian families were slaughtered, root and branch. Entire Armenian families were killed and beheaded, and the severed heads were pinned up on clotheslines as a public display. The Armenian population that survived the initial slaughter, was driven across the Turkish border into an inhospitible desert, without provisions, where they stood little or no chance of survival.
It's important to acknowledge the genocide; and memory of this kind must be supported, in the face of political expediency. It is not simply that the Turks must face their history; all humanity is called upon to face this crime.
Posted by Copeland at October 17, 2007 05:12 PMShe doesn't want the president welcoming home the troops next year, brigade after brigade, month after month of our heroes coming home with a victory as wind in their sails.
God peter, have you no shame!
I guarantee you that these drained, exhausted, worn out soldiers don't give a rats ass about being called a hero by you or the GOP! They just want to be home!
Remember, your party and ru$h has called soldiers who complain... phony soldiers. Do you think they will forget that?
They don't want to be bothered by your party's political grandstanding. But of course you're already setting the stage for photo ops and parades. Just tools for political gain as far you're concerned.
Unfortunately, you and your party do not want them to be treated as humans These people who have endured the worst treatment by a commander in chief in American history. Mission first right? But wait, let me get some snapshot smiles first so we can have competive election.
These brave soldiers will want a chance to gather their thoughts, rest, relax, be with friends and family, people who will love and support them. Possibly seek help for emotional problems suffered during this forced tour extension.
I wonder how many will go AWOL before they are forced back to Iraq!
I agree.
This feels like a DLC Blue Dog Democrat (and culture of corruption Republican) orchestrated attempt to divert attention away from the ongoing atrocities of the Bush administration. (In Iraq, where there used to be just a handful of genocidal maniacs before Bush attacked Iraq in 2003, now there are hundreds, if not thousands, of genocidal maniacs running loose and killing Iraqi men, women and children, as well as our troops).
Everything that the Bush administration, the rubber-stamp Republicans and the lapdog Blue Dog DLC Democrats have done over the past seven years has given rise to increased hardcore right-wing militancy and militant-leadership throughout the Middle East.
Iran, before Bush attacked Iraq, had a moderate reform leadership in place, who actually were defending the liberty of Iranian citizens from religious extremism. Now, following Bush attacking Iraq, Iran is controlled by increasingly militant and deranged conservatives, who are busy exporting their brand of extremist Islam to parts of the Bush-liberated Iraq. Heckuva job Bushie.
The Kurd-dominated northern part of Iraq had their separatist ambitions reined in by Saddam Hussein, but following Bush invading Iraq, the two main Kurdish groups in northern Iraq have been using this area to launch military incursions into both Turkey and Iran, trying to establish their dream country, Kurdistan. Combined with the increased militancy of Iran, we are watching Turkey become more militant, with hardcore Islamicists even making inroads into the Turkish government, threatening the West-friendly, generally secular nature of Turkish politics. Heckuva job Bushie.
Hell, due to incredibly insane Bush administration policies, Bush and his neo-con Republican pals have even made Russia and China go more militant.
Thus, no matter what the denials, everything points to Bush and his deranged neo-con pals actually hoping for World War III, with all the mechanisms being put in place (illegal intelligence gathering, ultra-secrecy, private mercenary armies, cracking down on dissent) so that when Bush triggers World War III, these deranged Republican warmongers will be able to crackdown and control any uprisings that are bound to occur as patriotic U.S. citizens finally realize the absolute evil they are facing in the Republican Party of today. Heckuva job Bushie.
And yet, in some history book somewhere in the world someday in the future, Bush and Cheney (as well as all the neo-con Republicans) will be placed side by side with Hitler and Stalin, and judged to be just as bloodthirsty and crazy. Heckuva job Bushie. This will be your legacy. Unless you repent now, and stop your insane attempt to spread "peace" through war. Crazy. Crazy. Crazy.
Nah, never happen. Deranged people like Bush and Cheney (and all the neo-cons) never learn...even as the body-count generated by their incredible stupidity goes through the roof.
Posted by The Oracle at October 17, 2007 09:44 PM"She doesn't want the president welcoming home the troops next year, brigade after brigade, month after month of our heroes coming home with a victory as wind in their sails."
pants-pissing peter, Dear Leader needs YOU in Iraq, so go visit your local Army recruiting center NOW
Posted by Gay Veteran at October 18, 2007 05:40 AMmaybe we should get our own house in order before we vote on Turkey and genocide, WE are responsible for setting forth in motion a war that has taken the lives of over a MILLION Iraqis
Copeland: "...One should recognize just how unhelpful an ally Turkey has been recently...Also Turkey seems willing to ignore the instability of the whole region, by threatening a major military incursion across Iraq's border. It's doubtful that they will be of any help in any case, since they only seem to be worried about how small bands of Kurdish separatists impact Turkey....
Why should Turkey have helped us in our war of aggression against Iraq??? And if the shoe was on the other foot I don't think America would tolerate being attacked IN America by "small bands"
Posted by Gay Veteran at October 18, 2007 06:04 AMSeven, I've been to the airport as part of our AA welcoming our heroes home. They do like the fuss being made over them. They love it. We've had four stars in the line welcoming them home too. Many have been there daily for the homecomings.
Anyway, I was only offering up a reason for this Armenian POS. There's not very many good reasons to bring this up NOW.
Posted by peter at October 18, 2007 01:47 PMbut pants-pissing peter, you would be SO much more useful by joining the troops in Iraq
Posted by gay veteran at October 18, 2007 03:35 PM@ Gay Veteran
I didn't mean to imply that the Turkish decision to reject the US invasion route passing through their country was a bad thing in itself. The Turkish government likely made the decision for pragmatic reasons, with the thought of all the shit that was likely to be stirred up among their own restive Kurdish population and Kurdish brothers across the border who share common interests in a liberation struggle.
The Turks are a lot more upset over the border incidents (I believe) than about the genocide resolution. They are frustrated because their desire to exact vengeance against the irregular Kurdish forces has been blocked at every turn and for years, by US authorities.
I don't think it's the right way to bet, to count on an escape route being opened for withdrawing US forces from the Turkish side. On the western side there's a long convoy route stretching through Anbar Province, that goes through Jordan to the Port of Aquaba. And then there's south, the short line, to Basra and embarcation points to Kuwait.
Posted by Copeland at October 18, 2007 03:46 PMMany have been there daily for the homecomings.
Great, lead cheerleader for homecomings.
If I was a returning (extended tour) Veteran from Iraq and knew you supported the occupation and bu$h I'd be in your face!
gay veteran is right, your time would have been better served in Iraq.