anything said on MTP is bogus. New Polls have Huckababy pulling up to Mit the Mormon in Iowa. Rudy 3rd. I'd love to see a tight finish in that primary. Maybe then we'd see the GOPers going after each other for real, instead of the love fests they've been doing. Or is the GOP so tightly regimented that the entire primary is being controlled at the top? If Rudy=Bush falters, how long will it be until Dick Cheney's name pops up?
Posted by T2 at November 14, 2007 09:13 AMCheney?
Yeah, that makes sense being as he's so popular and all.
Posted by snark at November 14, 2007 09:36 AMTiki and coyote said Obama's a loser and boy were they right. This guy is off the wall.
Posted by JohnT at November 14, 2007 09:41 AMand boy were they right
Heh, JohnT, I'm gonna save this one, okay? Not sure I said he was a loser, though, but he's certainly looking more like one as he trips over himself trying to help Russert with the Hillary bashing while trying to set some kind of "tone" about "hope."
Posted by iamcoyote at November 14, 2007 10:11 AMBTW, Jeff, looks like you have a wayward italics tag, there...
Posted by iamcoyote at November 14, 2007 10:12 AMwell snark, you don't have to get the most votes to end up as president.
Posted by T2 at November 14, 2007 10:28 AMHasn't someone already posted that the Russert "quote" cut off Obama's next line, that said he would have opposed it anyway?
Right! Here it is: "What I know is that from my vantage point the case [for authorizing the war] was not made."
From http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004
Ed
well snark, you don't have to get the most votes to end up as president.
If that's the case then why would the GOP have to bail on Rudy? Can't have it both ways.
Posted by snark at November 14, 2007 10:38 AM1) In the first case, Barack Obama opposed the war before it had started.
2) In the second case we already had soldiers there, and Barack Obama thought that they should have equipment to use and rations to eat.
These two are in no way inconsistent. He opposes the war and always did. The moment he came close to Bush's position was when the issue was funding troops that were already over there.
This what most war-opposers in their right mind and moral conscience would do: oppose the war as long as possible, but once we have people on the ground fighting, vote to supply them.
And that's what Barack Obama did.
Posted by Jason T. at November 14, 2007 11:03 AMThis what most war-opposers in their right mind and moral conscience would do: oppose the war as long as possible, but once we have people on the ground fighting, vote to supply them.
Thank you, David G. Um, I mean Jason T. (Where the hell is David G.??)
But I disagree. I think the warmongers prey on the conscience of taxpayers with this whole "vote to supply them" BS. How many years now have we voted to supply the troops? And are they all better protected now? Do they have Biden's IED-proof humvees yet? Are they all wearing body armor?
If I ruthlessly attack my neighbor, even though it's misguided, is my wife responsible to bring me turkey sandwiches so I don't get tired out?
I don't think she would. And neither should we.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at November 14, 2007 11:35 AMJohnT: Like Coyote, I don't remember calling Obama a loser, although my memory has been rendered iffy thanks to the Miller Brewing Co. Actually, I think Barak(named for a Bible character who would not go into battle without a woman at his side) has achieved alot in his life.
As a Non-Godbot, however, I have a problem with his Harold Ford-like Baptist minister speech delivery. I don't want another President who talks to God for foreign policy orders.
Also, he really needs to win Iowa which is only 3% black and full of polite white well meaning people who tell "white lies" to the pollsters.
I think he will lose in Iowa. Dough! Did I just call him a loser?
Posted by TIKI AL at November 14, 2007 11:36 AMCoyote, you mean I use too much italics? I don't know how to indent quotes like Steve does. And the whole post was McGovern's quote besides the first paragraph.d
Posted by Jeff Dinelli at November 14, 2007 11:44 AMJeff, Write the word 'blockquote' between your tags.
Posted by Seven of Six at November 14, 2007 11:55 AMMV: Check the fine print in your marriage vows. (It's just after the teeny printed section on oral sex being optional.)
Section 5:23. "Spouce sustenance must be provided during battle regardless of the causation."
Posted by TIKI AL at November 14, 2007 11:58 AMMaskedVigilante:
I don't find that analogy compelling at all.
The troops didn't pick the fight like some reckless fool. They're not over in the neighbor's yard like a belligerent husband. They're over there at our behest, doing what they signed up to do.
It isn't up to them, to cool down and come back. It's up to the American people and the leaders we elect.
So while they're over there getting shot at, because we collectively sent them there, we do owe it to them to give them funds and supplies.
I don't know why they don't have better equipment, but I'm pretty sure that without funding they would have been worse off than they already are.
And for the record, I did personally disagree with the war before it started. I do not think that relieves me of my responsibility to help pay for supplying the troops.
We sent them there as a nation, and those of us who opposed the war early also have a responsibility to American soldiers.
It's how citizenship works. You don't stop paying your taxes just because the person you voted for lost the election. You don't stop following the law just because you don't like the attorney general. You don't let soldiers go without supplies when they're fighting. You work to bring them home, but as long as they're fighting they get supplies.
The way to work against the war is not to work against the troops.
Posted by Jason T. at November 14, 2007 12:14 PMJeff, yeah, I didn't realize the whole thing was a quote...
MV, yes, the "vote to supply" the troops is bullshit that the Dems shouldn't have let themselves get trapped in. Idiots, falling for another right-wing meme. Still, what kinda wife won't bring a sammich to her li'l warrior??
Oral sex optional, TIKI? Who knew?? I'd say you was robbed...
do i smell a hilary shill?
Posted by hmmmm at November 14, 2007 12:31 PMFar from robbed, Coyote, I included it in the Hedonist Pre-Nup just after the "Mandatory 3-Way at the drop of a hat" clause.
Barak was against the war before he was for it?
Posted by TIKI AL at November 14, 2007 12:38 PMdo i smell a hilary shill?
Cup your hands over your mouth and breath out through your mouth and in through your nose quickly.
I think you'll have a better idea where the foul odor is coming from after that.
Posted by snark at November 14, 2007 12:43 PM"Mandatory 3-Way at the drop of a hat" clause.
Gee, I'll have to include that one (on the condition that George Clooney is one of the three) in my next prenup, if I'm ever mentally incapacited enough to cleave to someone again. Nice to have those conditions met up front so there's no equivocation.
Posted by iamcoyote at November 14, 2007 12:44 PMsnark, ya made me giggle out loud with that one...
Posted by iamcoyote at November 14, 2007 12:46 PM"[The troops] are over there at our behest..."
Speak for yourself. They sure as hell are not over there at MY behest, nor at the behest of anyone with any humanity at all.
"...doing what they signed up to do."
If they signed up to destroy a country and commit mass murder, and devastate millions of lives, shouldn't they be in prison somewhere along with their commanders and the government that sent them over there?
Posted by Shirin at November 14, 2007 03:04 PM"It isn't up to them, to cool down and come back."
Actually, some of them decided it WAS up to them. What if all of them decided to have the courage of, for example, Camilo Mejia, who said:
“I say without any pride that I did my job as a soldier. I commanded an infantry squad in combat and we never failed to accomplish our mission. But those who called me a coward, without knowing it, are also right. I was a coward not for leaving the war, but for having been a part of it in the first place. Refusing and resisting this war was my moral duty, a moral duty that called me to take a principled action. I failed to fulfill my moral duty as a human being and instead I chose to fulfill my duty as a soldier. All because I was afraid. I was terrified, I did not want to stand up to the government and the army, I was afraid of punishment and humiliation. I went to war because at the moment I was a coward, and for that I apologize to my soldiers for not being the type of leader I should have been."
What if they had the conviction of Agustin Aguayo who refused to load his weapon the whole time he was in Iraq?
What if they gave a war and no one showed up?
"It's up to the American people..."
No it isn't. If it were up to the American people they'd all be home by now.
"So while they're over there getting shot at, because we collectively sent them there.."
Once again, speak for yourself. I had nothing whatsoever to do with sending them over there, and I have devoted every moment I have to fight against it, and so has everyone else I know with an ounce of morality.
"we do owe it to them to give them funds and supplies."
I don't owe them a thing.
"We sent them there as a nation..."
No, we did not. The Bush regime sent them there and lied and deceived much of the population of this country into accepting it. Some of us were smart enough to see into the deception. We did not send them there in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.
"and those of us who opposed the war early also have a responsibility to American soldiers."
Not me. I don't accept a scintilla of responsibility to help them to kill and maim and destroy the lives of real human beings.
"It's how citizenship works."
Then where do I go to renounce my citizenship? I would rather do that than support mass murder and destruction.
"The way to work against the war is not to work against the troops."
The way to work against the war is to support the executors of the war? What kind of twisted logic is that?
Posted by at November 14, 2007 03:21 PMMr., Mrs., or Ms. 03:21 PM, I agree with you. Good post.
Posted by TIKI AL at November 14, 2007 05:06 PM
~~Mr., Mrs., or Ms. 03:21 PM, I agree with you. Good post.~~ TIKI
Ditto.
PAZ
Posted by quídam at November 15, 2007 01:45 AMGeez, I've been offline for a couple of days so I missed out on Jason T. taking me to the principal's office for a talking to.
I'd attack it point by point and tell him what a crock of shit he's spewing, but it looks like the anonymous 3:21'er already did it for me.
Oh, by the way, Mr. T. Most of the kids over there have body armor because their parents purchased it with their own money, state-side, and jumped through who knows HOW many flaming hoops to get it sent to their son/daughter.
Suck it.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at November 15, 2007 02:02 PMThat was me, MV. Glad I had the opportunity.
Posted by Shirin at November 15, 2007 06:52 PM