Paradox, I don't know why you have been laboring under the belief that we were not going to pursue a permanent presence in Iraq, nor why you should so unjustifiably whine about it in public, but it is so. That's what our country has done for more than a century when it finally wins a war: it takes a seat at the table there and calls some shots. That's the arrangement we have had in Germany, Japan, Italy, the Korean peninsula, and many other places all over the Pacific.
Why do you not know this? Why do you believe your opinion of Bush's plans for Iraq matters? Even if Hillary wins, she will still be obligated to keep a large presence in Iraq indefinitely. That's because we are winning there and will win in the end.
Posted by Toby Petzold at December 2, 2007 04:02 PMThe most ironic thing is that your argument here applies to all the shrill ad-hominen comments that pervades this site. If you say correlation proves causation long enough, you'll get religious zealots that follow the garbage papers the IPCC reports are based on (seriously look at Mannian PC analysis, if you are aware that the western U.S. is not 33% of the Earth's surface you begin to realize how much of a joke the statistical analysis of a climatologist is), and such absurd assertions that the economy is driven by the president and congress, and the effects of their policies have a negligible lag time.
Keep spreading the "good news" of the democratic party to fight the "evil satan" that is the republican party. You would think after years of evolution, intelligent human beings would have gotten over such neanderthal arguments.
We must have spent the past 2000 years regressing.
Paradox, your words on "Banning Speech" are absolutely right on. Truth has either been so distorted that one hasn't the time to sort through the propaganda to find it, or creating a new truth (lie) by challenging what was once accepted as truth.
One will never find truth through our media, with few exceptions. That is the reason most of us here no longer listen or watch MSM news, because most of us are too educated and too informed to buy the corporate/government propaganda spewed forth nightly. Unfortunately, many still buy what our media is selling.
George Walker Bush & Company have taken lying to a new level. Rove's new job as Minister of lies is to take the truth about the Bush Administration, and make truth the lie, and the lie the truth. The disheartening part is that many will buy the snake oil that he is selling, i.e., Congress forced Bush into the Iraq War before he had time to build a coalition. Outrageous? Yes, but Rove will repeat it often enough that it will become truth, cemented in history.
If it was the intent of Bush and his boys to overload us with lies until we could no longer keep up with the truth, they may be winning. Remember, they are "creating" our new reality.
Posted by Judith at December 2, 2007 04:51 PM
Judith, you are right on the money. Tobytroll, glad to see you could finally find some shred of pro-Bush B.S. to hang on to and re-appear. I think that one post from you every 3-4 months is working out just fine.
Posted by T2 at December 2, 2007 05:35 PM"Paradox, I don't know why you have been laboring under the belief that we were not going to pursue a permanent presence in Iraq, nor why you should so unjustifiably whine about it in public, but it is so."
Toby, somehow you totally missed the point.
Posted by Judith at December 2, 2007 08:01 PMAmazing Toby that you would think Paradox, or any of us for that matter, didn't know Bush was building permanent bases in Iraq all along. Jeez. We have only been talking about those permanent bases for years now.
Posted by Judith at December 2, 2007 08:08 PM"Why do you believe your opinion of Bush's plans for Iraq matters?"
Your right, and neither does your opinion matter. Remember that Toby, and think of it often in other matters in the future.
Posted by Judith at December 2, 2007 08:11 PM"We must have spent the past 2000 years regressing." ...(Jay)
Organized religion will do that, ya know.
On Fox News Sunday, Rep. Chris Van Hollen called out Karl Rove for his false claim that Congress, not President Bush, had pushed for a speedy vote on the 2002 Iraq war resolution.
"Clearly things have not gone right in Iraq and you've tried to revise history," Van Hollen told Rove, demanding he "retract the outrageous statements you made."
Rove refused to back down, instead reading off a series of quotes by then-Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D-SD) that Rove claimed backed up his point. But as ThinkProgress documents, "None of the quotes that Rove used suggested Daschle was desperately trying to force a war authorization vote."
Van Hollen then laid down his trump card: a quote by former Bush press secretary Ari Fleischer in today's Washington Post: "It was definitely the Bush administration that set it in motion and determined the timing, not the Congress. I think Karl in this instance just has his facts wrong."
Of course, Rove disagreed, and said that Ari was not at the center of the WH, and he was.
"I think Karl in this instance just has his facts wrong."
It drives me crazy when politicians refuse to call a lie a lie. Why not just say the truth. "I think Karl in this instance is just lying or fabricating a new reality?"
Posted by Judith at December 3, 2007 04:30 AMfor Toby and the rest of the right-wing trolls (from CNN):
"...Opposition to the Iraq war is at an all-time high despite reports of a reduction of violence in the country, according to a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Thursday.
Sixty-eight percent of poll respondents opposed the war, setting a record. The level of opposition is slightly up from last month and 1 percentage point higher than the previous record of 67 percent, first set in December 2006 in a CNN/Opinion Research survey.
Support for the war in Iraq among Americans has dropped to 31 percent from 34 percent last month, the new poll found.
The last time CNN reported a majority supporting the war was in October 2003, with 54 percent backing it, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll...."
toby simply needs to find his tube or preparation h .. spread it all over his 'head' .. that will solve the problem right there
Posted by stormskies at December 3, 2007 12:56 PMGay Veteran thinks that CNN is full of right-wingers?
Ha, ha, ha.
Is it actually possible for a sentient person to believe that?
Posted by Toby Petzold at December 3, 2007 02:57 PM"Gay Veteran thinks that CNN is full of right-wingers?"
uh, no, they're just controlled by Big Business, just like the rest of the korporate media
though to be fair to even a troll, my post should have said "for Toby and the rest of the right-wing trolls (QUOTES ARE from CNN):"
Posted by Gay Veteran at December 4, 2007 09:58 AM"Organized religion will do that, ya know."
Is that based on anything besides the combination of a correlation proves causation argument and a dogmatic belief of yours.
More fitting might be
"Organized government will do that, ya know."
Think of all the children that go through public schools (aka government indoctrination centers) that aptly fit in an Orwell book.
Posted by Jay at December 4, 2007 05:31 PM