The Post article highlights dissension in the Republican ranks over spending, but I think the timelineless Iraq funding is going to be just as controversial in the Democratic caucus. If we can get the Progressives to stand together, we might just be able to defeat this in an "upperdown" vote in the House. The Senate, of course, is a lost cause.
Posted by andgarden at December 7, 2007 11:37 PMwe don't need the senate. if the house refuses to pass it, it's done. hoyer...
Posted by Turkana at December 7, 2007 11:39 PMExactly; either chamber has the power to "stop supply," as the Australians say. Funny, it's usually the Senate that obstructs.
Posted by andgarden at December 7, 2007 11:44 PMhey turk, great post.
this has déjà vu feeling, i remember some other bill that dems said would stand strong, would not cave, and then they tossed in some domestic spending and paraded around all cocky like they achieved something good when they bowed once again to the great Decider.
Posted by Patriot Daily at December 7, 2007 11:49 PMpd- it's hard work taking on mr. 24%.
that pelosi recently said she'd stand firm really makes me wonder who has more power in the caucus- she or hoyer.
Posted by Turkana at December 7, 2007 11:53 PMCan the chimp get rid of the "good parts" with signing statements?
Posted by TIKI AL at December 8, 2007 07:01 AMThe conundrum the Dems face is the fact that the surge is producing positive results and the American people want us to leave Iraq a winner. The fact that Americans want us out of Iraq is confounded by the fact that Americans do not like losing. If the Dems defund now in the wake of recent success, they risk being viewed as the cause of the ensuing chaos our departure will cause and the world seeing us as losers. This would allow the GOP to show them as weak on national security at a time when the world is viewed as a dangerous place. Look at the numbers on Iran for instance. The recent NIE was seen as a blow to Bush's stance on Iran but Rasmussen has a poll that shows most Americans agree with Bush that Iran has NOT stopped its quest for a nuke. Only 18% believe that Iran has stopped. Americans are concerned about security and the Dems are, after all, Americans. As a GOP voter I hope the stance you advocate will be embraced by Pelosi and Reid as this is the best chance the GOP has to retake the congress and secure the WH in 08. But alas the Dems keep caving to Bush and keep their chances alive. The focus going into the 08 elections by the Dems is shifting from the war to domestic issues as we speak because they do not want to lose and domestic issues are a Democrat strong point. Resistance to the progress on the gound in Iraq is a political loser for the Dems and they know it. It just the left wing of the base that does not understand.
The rasmussen poll:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/general_current_events/just_18_believe_iran_has_stopped_nuclear_weapons_development_program
The lead paragraph:
"Just 18% of American voters believe that Iran has halted its nuclear weapons program. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 66% disagree and say Iran has not stopped its nuclear weapons program. Twenty-one percent (21%) of men believe Iran has stopped the weapons development along with 16% of women (see crosstabs).
The survey was conducted following release of a government report saying that Iran halted its nuclear weapons development program in 2003."
manapp99, I fixed your sentence: "The conundrum the Dems face is the fact that the surge AS REPORTED BY THE KORPORATE MEDIA is producing positive results...."
The fundamental fact is that the vast majority of Americans want us OUT of Iraq. Also, that America is on the WRONG track (gee, after 7 years of Dear Leader who would have guessed?).
so go ahead, whistle past that graveyard
Posted by gay veteran at December 8, 2007 07:42 AMGay vet, even the antiwar, anti Bush, congressman Murtha has been to Iraq and seen the progress. Are you saying that all of the progress reported is a lie? If so how do you account for all the previous years of reporting how bad it is over there. Do you mean that "Koroporate Media" has just now gotten the message to report the news out of Iraq as good? In your world the only news that is the truth is the news that fits you view of the truth, or so it seems from you comment. Perhaps your version of the "truth" is the account of Scott Beauchamp over at the nation?
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 08:22 AMThis country has never had the slightest accurate reporting about how bad conditions are in Iraq. Basically it's a sliding scale of horrendous conditions, with how bad it "really is" systemically underreported because reporters can go very few places and thus rely on Pentagon spin.
To the extent that violence has "decreased", we have no real accurate, reliable measure of it, nor do we really know why fewer soldiers have been killed---they may very well be hunkering down and using air strikes, the statisics also support that possibility.
Whether the American goober "wants" to "win" rather than "lose" is meaningless, as those words have no further applicablity to Iraq. The occupation has been a complete disaster for Iraq and its people, and they (and the muslim world) properly blame us.
The surge is now over, that final bolt has now been shot, the rotations are now set in stone and the ground forces are effectively broken. The sunni insurgents sidled up to the US military, got money and arms and reorganized, and waited out the surge while (apparently) hunting down a few "al qaeda" boys. That "truce" will now be ending, as will Sadr's "stand-down".
The Dems can't see one move ahead---as things get worse again in the coming months, they'll have failed the electorate completely and look weak to have let Bush and Repubs continue the Iraq Game.
Posted by euzoius at December 8, 2007 09:07 AMmanapp- scroll down and read what i've written about the "success" of the surge.
Posted by Turkana at December 8, 2007 09:14 AMJust to add to m99's points...
Dec 5 2007 8:36PM
KXMCTV Minot
"The security situation in Iraq has improved dramatically in the past few months.
That's the assessment of North Dakota Congressman Earl Pomeroy, who just returned from a visit to Iraq.
Pomeroy says the incidence of roadside bombings and other violence is down because Iraqis are taking a more vigorous part in attacking factions that are causing violence in the nation.
The congressman says his visit proved to him that General David Patraeus, who is in charge of American forces in Iraq, has done an extraordinary job...
(Rep. Earl Pomeroy, -D- ND) "I think he incorporating four years of lessons learned from mistakes made in a dramatically improved US performance. We have had outstanding performance by our soldiers all along, but the plan has not always been one that has been very well equipped to meet the unfolding circumstance in Iraq. I think now we're on the right track in Iraq thanks to the leadership of General Patraeus."
Pomeroy visited Baghdad and the Anbaar Province of Iraq, as well as refugees in Jordan."
Then there's...
MRC Study: As Surge Succeeds and Casualty Rates Fall, ABC, CBS and NBC Lose Interest In Iraq War
"Good News = Less News on Iraq War
Now, all three networks have become more optimistic in their on-ground reporting from the war zone, admitting that the surge in troops and new counterinsurgency tactics have reduced the violence. But as the news from the war front improves, a Media Research Center study finds ABC, CBS and NBC are less likely to tell viewers about it."
The proof, your gayness, is in the reporting. How much reporting did we see on Iraq in the spring? How much did we see this past week? Nightly, we heard about this bombing or that one. Now, we rarely hear about it. The only thing that changed is the war itself. Reps. Baird, Murtha, and now Pomeroy, all Democrats, have reported improvements in Iraq, that thew surge is working. Rep. Murtha went there with his mind made up that it wasn't working and came back changed. His initial answers were his honest answers, when he issued additional statements, he was backing away and making politics more important than our soldiers successes.
Posted by peter at December 8, 2007 09:25 AMEuzoius says this:
"To the extent that violence has "decreased", we have no real accurate, reliable measure of it, nor do we really know why fewer soldiers have been killed---they may very well be hunkering down and using air strikes, the statisics also support that possibility."
O.K. Brainiac. Then what reliable measure did we have when all the news about Iraq was bad?
And why is this measurement now unreliable?
peter- you honestly believe pomeroy and that wingnut site? i'm new here, and i'm trying to understand the mindset. i actually know quite a few republicans, but i've never met one that truly believes that kind of propaganda. you're really one of the 24%ers?
manapp- i've made a couple posts about the "surge." try some facts. they're healthy.
Posted by Turkana at December 8, 2007 09:42 AMTurkana, it is clearly you who are disregading the facts. Peter brings forth facts and you dis them because they are not the set of "facts" you subscribe to. I bet you were front and center with the "facts" from the MSM when it was all about how bad it was in Iraq. I bet you went along with "facts" that Harry Reid put forth when he said the war in Iraq is lost. Just like the rest of the left wing nuts. Facts only count when they agree with your predisposed opinions. IMHO. Did you sign on the "facts" put forth by Dan Rather on 60 min.??? How about the "facts" spewed by the nation in the now confirmed bogus Scott Beauchamp allegations. Did you get all giddy about the imminent prosecution of Karl Rove when Jason Leopold at Truthout reported it as "fact"? What is it about your set of "facts" that makes them superior to Peters? Or for that matter the Democrat congressmen and women that have returned to say the surge is working. Did you go see for yourself?
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 10:06 AMTurkana, yes, petey's a 24%er, and fancies himself TLC's "official" troll. He's been given all the facts 20 times over, but like all trolls, manapp included, he's not here to learn, he's here to be an asshole. You can try to engage them, but you won't get anywhere since most of our arguments come from a stance of empathy and compassion, which, as you probably know, are traits absent in sociopaths. Make no mistake, anyone still defending this admin and the crimes they've committed against this country and the world can be considered a sociopath. Disconcerting how many there are in the world, huh?
Posted by iamcoyote at December 8, 2007 10:21 AMmanapp- since you won't bother reading the facts, i won't bother. never before met kool-aid drinkers. it's fascinating. if you guys get your way, we'll still be winning the war ten years from now. although it may be against eastasia, by then. but it always has been, right?
Posted by at December 8, 2007 10:24 AMPomeroy supports the new S-CHIPS legislation, he supports the College Cost Reduction Act, he seems truly a Democrat. Aren't Democrats good for their word? I didn't vote for him, he's not my candidate. You got something on him? Sure I'm one of those 24%'ers, soon to be improving into the 40's with this crowd of Democrats helping as they are. Steve has already cautioned the "many" here that 43 could and probably would see successes in the next year. It's starting and Pomeroy only adds to the movement.
Man, read the flavor of your post, dwelling in the negative. That's all there is for Democrats these days, negatives. Even Obama has turned negative. Last years election, what of it, what's changed over the last year, where's the results. You side talks about "caving" ALL the time. The past year has been all about "caving". Why vote for Democrats, they "cave" ALL the time. Mr. 24% gets his way........STILL. Maybe Democrats could pull off some of their antiwar rhetoric if they had something better than an 11% approval themselves. The microphone goes to power and Democrats don't have that. What a group of small minded people Democrats in DC are. These are the people you voted for, they show your judgment.
Posted by peter at December 8, 2007 10:29 AMiamcoyote: So rather than engage in a discussion you would rather just insult those that disagree with you. You may call this empathy and compassion, I call it closed minded. You have made up your mind and no set of changes or facts can change it. Then you break out your Phd in Psychology and decide that all who do not agree with you are sociopaths. Sheesh your ability to logically defend your postion is just awesome dude. Hope you make it out of your mom's basement.
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 10:31 AMnever before met kool-aid drinkers. it's fascinating
At dKos, they get troll-rated immediately and vanish, which is pretty much mandatory with so many commenters. We see them here all the time, and they used to be fascinating - now it's just a yawn watching them get more and more outrageous until someone comes along and responds. I think it's important that we see them, though, so we know what we're dealing with.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 8, 2007 10:39 AMJust look through the posts. The only people putting forth facts and links are the ones challaging your illogical arguments. You guys like the comfort of a website where everyone agrees and do not care for being challanged. Why is this?
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 10:45 AMdon't listen to people like Riverbend. it's peter who's got the goods.
god what must it be like to sit one's ass atop a colossal, endless pile of dead bodies and orphans and refugees without clean water or electricity or jobs, where once was a functioning society, not to mention the most educated and secular in the Middle East.
guess what, peter - they'll do it to you too, if there's a nickel to be made. the previous nazis even purged and killed their biggest koolaid toadies, remember? see you in the camps, sucker. you'll probably be a stoolie there, which won't save you either.
god, is there any end to this fucking down-is-up ignorance, let alone not giving a fuck about such things as wanton murder and cruelty on a mass scale? let alone contaminating and irradiating the environment of countless generations yet unborn?
God I'm tired of sick assholes who grasp nothing of the human consequences of their pretty delusions. I'm not reading another peter or bagley post unless it's posted from baghdad or fallujah.
Comfortable pussy fucks, born without the slightest empathy gene, just like their hero emperor Dorkus Maximus.
You're an awesome addition here, Turkana, thanks for the many fine posts and keep it up.
Posted by Sharkbabe at December 8, 2007 10:49 AMSharkbabe, which are you posting from, Baghdad or Fallujah?
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 10:54 AMokay- thanks, iamcoyote and sharkbabe. i guess i'll just sit back and enjoy them as carnival sideshow entertainment; but i'm surprised they even know how to type!
Posted by Turkana at December 8, 2007 10:56 AMLook, your website was linked to at Realclearpolitics. I came here via there. There are others that will come here as well. This is your chance to put forth your side in debate and possibly win over some to yourside, however you are choosing to just duck and insult. I ask again, do you want just a feel good website with no debate? Can you not hold your own? It is a free country and you are entitled. At Kos they will shut you down if you disagree so what is the point? I appreciate that I can even post here after one exchange but if I'm looking for a debate on the facts or issues I will have to look elsewhere. The original post was how the Dems in congress should in your opinion shut down the war by witholding funding. I was putting forth why that would be a bad idea politically. Any takers?
Posted by manapp99 at December 8, 2007 11:08 AMYeah, Turkana, it is pretty funny when they call us the sheep, but don't even recognize it in themselves even after people like Bartlett explains how easy it is to send out the talking points to the right wing blogs who then repeat them verbatim. It's also instructive for us to become familiar with their patterns, so we can recognize people like that in the meat space; you definitely wouldn't want to do business with someone like petey.
Lookee! 99's reached Phase II: whining. Observe the "you can't hold your own" dare. Snicker at the "you just want everyone to agree" complaint. Now watch him move into Phase III: calls for civility, when I say "Fuck off!" Dance, monkey, dance!
Posted by iamcoyote at December 8, 2007 11:17 AMFuck your civility stage, iamcoward. I will leave you chicks to soothe each other with your quiet clucking sounds while you preen each others feathers. The world will continue to be round inspite of your protestations that it is flat.
Phase IV: Angry insults and "I'm outta here."
Yep. By the book.
So predictable.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 8, 2007 12:10 PMI'm still here, no stages for me, well maybe stage 22 or is it 54, no it's 86, Oh and I forgot about 107....
"And now, having been caught out on the facts, the Obama people respond with a personal attack"
This happens all the time here, not just with Obama people, but the TLC'ers, however few of them there are now.
Anybody out there know where Phid went off to?
Posted by peter at December 8, 2007 12:51 PMIraq's ministry of interior civilian casualty counts no longer tally with what news organizations have independently reported---MOI understand that the surge is supposed to be "working", hence less deaths are found. At some point during the surge the civilian death count was ceased entirely. That's a "different" approach than the one taken "pre-surge."
Petraeus's "numbers" were declared to be cooked by the GAO, I think, and they have never retracted that claim. "War" by death ratios is inherently unreliable. "We don't do bodycounts" (von Rumsfeld), yeah, until propaganda is necessary. Another "change" from prior practice.
Neither government has much interest in accurate numbers of death and violence at this point---suffice it to say that there is enormous death and violence to go around in Iraq post-surge, and no basis for thinking that any downward blips are real, meaningful or permanent.
You want to use a reliable estimate of Iraqi deaths resulting from our invasion? That's the Lancet study by the nation's trained epidemiologists---but that one the Heroic Right immediately declared "DOA" because it was too "large" for them to believe---science and all.
The main problem here is that this isn't a "war", it's an indefinite occupation for oil with several "conflicts" running through it and no central government. US KIAs are down---great, but we have no certain understanding why, and it's meaningless anyway given the lack of a functioning government or consensus about one thing involving the future of Iraq--except that they want us to end our occupation. Now the Army wants to depose Maliki---you go, guys!
Wingnuts can't seem to remember their hero Gen'ral P's first press conference: "There is no military solution to the insurgency in Iraq". He hasn't retracted that, yet armchair wingnuts have universally declared "victory".
Stay in Iraq for years, wingnuts (and Dems) for all the good it'll do---it will (without question) generate more terrorists, cost hundreds of dead soldiers a year, thousands of Iraqi deaths, and hundreds of billions of dollars until the US economy and dollar go belly up---then you can really declare "victory", ha-ha.
Fools and cretins, the whole Right-wing rat pack.
Posted by euzoius at December 8, 2007 01:01 PM"Uber-decorated Major General John R.S. Batiste, who retired last year "on principle," delivers a bruising point by point indictment of Sect. of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld– [Donald Rumsfeld] violated fundamental principles of war… set the conditions for Abu Ghraib and other atrocities that further ignited the insurgency…"
Remember this guy, y'all loved his revelations in the past...well he's changed like so many others y'all liked. They will all fail your side, one by one...
"First, the United States must be successful in the fight against worldwide Islamic extremism. We have seen this ruthless enemy firsthand, and its global ambitions are undeniable. This struggle, the Long War, will probably take decades to prosecute. Failure is not an option.
Second, whether or not we like it, Iraq is central to that fight. We cannot walk away from our strategic interests in the region. Iraq cannot become a staging ground for Islamic extremism or be dominated by other powers in the region, such as Iran and Syria. A premature or precipitous withdrawal from Iraq, without the requisite stability and security, is likely to cause the violence there -- which has decreased substantially but is still present -- to cascade into an even larger humanitarian crisis.
Third, the counterinsurgency campaign led by Gen. David Petraeus is the correct approach in Iraq. It is showing promise of success and, if continued, will provide the Iraqi government the opportunities it desperately needs to stabilize its country." Washington Post
He goes on to say...
"The day after his famous Pearl Harbor speech, President Franklin D. Roosevelt again addressed the nation. "I was about to add that ahead there lies sacrifice for all of us," he said. "But it is not correct to use that word. The United States does not consider it a sacrifice to do all one can, to give one's best to our nation, when the nation is fighting for its existence and its future life." His words inspired the "Greatest Generation," and they should inspire us again today."
Posted by peter at December 8, 2007 01:51 PM"The only thing we have to fear, is Bush generated fear itself."....Tiki Roosevelt, Esq.
Posted by TIKI AL at December 8, 2007 04:12 PMright wing trolls like magpie manapp99 and pants pissing peter can crow all they want to about "progress" in Iraq (btw, where's that political reconciliation we were promised?), but the FACT remains that Americans want us OUT of Iraq
plus why haven't you yellow chickenhawks joined the Army?
bogus Scott Beauchamp allegations? in the "liberal" New Republic which was a cheerleader for the war? also, looks like the National Review now has the same problem
Posted by gay veteran at December 9, 2007 12:53 PM