This is the stupidest thing that can happen. No offense to Kucinic supporters he got less than 2% of votes in NH. Everywhere else in the polls he has averaged less than 3%, that shows people are not buying his ideas. This guy is just wasting everybody's time. I hope he bails out of the race. In Iowa, he was calling for his supporters to support Obama if he is not viable any why don't he do the same and get out of the race.
Posted by BKK at January 15, 2008 09:39 AMBKK, Kucinich was asking his supporters in Iowa to put Obama as their second choice, not, "...he was calling for his supporters to support Obama if he is not viable..."
Posted by Seven of Six at January 15, 2008 09:47 AMIf he doesn't get it, look to the three candidates scrambling onstage to appeal to Kucinich's supporters. "I'm really sorry it couldn't be 4 up here..." "We have to remember that there should be 4 up here, but the evil conglomerate corporations (which I fight) wouldn't have it", etc etc.
Posted by blogtopus at January 15, 2008 09:53 AMSeven of Six, Thats what I meant to say. I should have clarified, that if he did not get 15% threshold votes then support Obama. He isn't getting any now so, I was implying he do the same now too.
PS: I am not an Obama supporter.
Posted by BKK at January 15, 2008 09:57 AMPeople run for President for a variety of reasons. Either a huge ego, like Guiliani or, Hell, all the Republicans, or because they want to effect the dialogue of political discussion. That's probably what drives Dennis Kucinich, because we sure as hell need to get SOME American values past the Media Magpies! Or, perhaps John Edwards continues because he's a determined fighter who knows he's the better candidate.
Rabid fans of one personality or another have no reason and NO RIGHT to demand that anyone else drops out or accepts the superior wisdom of the cultists making the demands.
We all have sufficient time to waste, 10 months before the election. Go Dennis! Let they, who support you, make up their OWN minds.
Posted by DeminNewJ at January 15, 2008 10:03 AMCorporate bastadges. NBC will win, you watch. This is what happens when money writes the laws.
Posted by Brian Bell at January 15, 2008 10:08 AMAs Glenn Greenwald points out Kucinich says he had a contract and a contract doesn't have to be written to exist. At the time that NBC invited him he met all their criteria and they didn't have the right (apparently) to disinvite him. Would that we all hat that gumption. Go Kucinich. I want him to stay in the race and keep fighting for progressive values. He can only help.
aimai
Posted by aimai at January 15, 2008 10:09 AMThis shows how the media determines who the candidates are. Kucinich has every right to be in the debates. Who the hell says Iowa and NH determine who gets the nomination. Last time I checked there were 50 states. Kucinich sure has better ideas than Clinton, Edwards, and Obama.
Posted by JohnT at January 15, 2008 10:23 AMDemInNJ, He is a congressman and can certainly effect political dialogs without running for USPTO. His ideas are not well received by public. He would not even campaign in all the states for him to effect political dialog. He and Gravel should get out. Instead of him, if his wife runs I would vote. :)
Posted by BKK at January 15, 2008 10:24 AMSo none of you see this along the lines of the Kelo decision by SCOTUS a few years back, more interference by the government in areas they shouldn't be. I guess y'all would be OK with the state setting your thermostat too.
Posted by peter at January 15, 2008 10:33 AMI have to admit I'm impressed that Kucinic had the balls to force his way on. And I like the way his legal team went about it.
OTOH, he's got no chance and he's not going to be invited again so it's bit of a pointless victory. And, in the long-run, it may (though not necessarily) hurt him more than it helps.
Go Dennis!
Posted by lima beans at January 15, 2008 11:00 AMGood for Kucinich, I think. Maybe he'll force everyone else to comment on our 100 year occupation of Iraq.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 15, 2008 11:06 AMpeter--what part of *contract law* don't you understand? This case is no different from any other enforceable agreement that two parties may enter into. The political content has nothing to do with it. The "government" that you are complaining about is the same government/judiciary that hears all civil cases. When you need to have *your* rights vindicated when a contract is abrogated where do you go?
aimai
Posted by aimai at January 15, 2008 11:10 AMJeff, why do you assume the Networks want a discussion of different points of view? For starters, the formats they come up with totally control the questions asked, thereby controlling the reference points of view. Secondly, isn't it funny that the two most hard-line out-of-the-box candidates still in the race, Paul and Kucinich, are the ones boxed out, when each has polled higher and received more votes than cookie-cutter candidates routinely included. These aren't debates, they are political propaganda shows.
Posted by T2 at January 15, 2008 11:42 AMpeter--what part of *contract law* don't you understand?
I'd be willing to bet most of it.
These aren't debates, they are political propaganda shows.
No kidding - it's not about the candidates, it's about the pundits. You've just got to ignore the questions and try to glean some sort of impression about them from their answers to the silly questions.
Posted by iamcoyote at January 15, 2008 12:14 PMBKK: His ideas are not well received by public.
Oh really? Provide proof.
aimai, you expect pants pissing peter to understand contract law?!?!?!?!? Right-wing trolls don't believe in the Rule of Law, only obeying Dear Leader.
Posted by Gay Veteran at January 15, 2008 12:19 PMBKK,
You may have noticed that, even running for President and gaining more support and more raw votes for his ideas than several of the Republican "candidates", his ideas are being throttled by a malign press which ALWAYS tries to ignore him. By the way, his ideas are indeed well received by a sizable portion of the electorate. It tends to be his personality that is dismissed.
Being "a Congressman," one of 435, in the teeth of a hostile press is no way to affect the political dialogue of this former republic. He's been there and done that for almost 20 years.
Once again, none of us have any right to tell these people they should stop bothering us. If you don't like what he has to say, ignore him. Don't presume to direct him or Mr. Gravel.
That you would vote on the basis of being a hottie is not so impressive to me. Perhaps you should stop posting on this blog, he said ironically.
Posted by DeminNewJ at January 15, 2008 12:29 PMT2, I'm not totally naive, I know NBC is in this for the entertainment value rather than an actual exercise in democracy, but Kucinich's message is so different than the other candidates (like RPaul, whom you mention, on the other side), and the message is one of true liberalism, that I think it's vitally important he be involved. He's the only liberal out there right now. If his voice is silenced, so am I, and that's why I'm so concerned about this.
Posted by Jeff Dinelli at January 15, 2008 12:41 PMdidn't mean to suggest you are totally naive Jeff...my point was that providing points of view that differ from what Corporate Media and party hierarchy on both sides want front and center is not what these programs are for. Just the opposite. I don't watch them unless Bush is in them, he's hilariously petulant.
Posted by T2 at January 15, 2008 12:53 PMDemInNJ. I presume, you are not the owner of this site. If so, I wont comment here anymore. If not, you don't have any right to tell me not to post my opinion. I directly commented to you because I felt you commented on my first remark. About Kucinich, He couldn't even carry his home state of OH in 2004 election. He only got about 9% votes. The best he did was in MN. Go and check for yourself. As Ted Koppel once said, this guy is running a vanity campaign.
It is an opinion not a right so is yours and from my opinion, I think he is just wasting peoples time.
About voting for his wife was a joke. Sorry I did not know you could not recognize :) next to the statement.
T2, I know you didn't mean that, we're cool, and I'm in total agreement with you here.
"People say I'm a dreamer / But I'm not the only one..."
Notice my 2nd update. The pricks at NBC are fighting it.
I think I'm a 3-hour flight to Vegas. I feel like going out there and throwing shit, getting arrested.
Posted by Jeff Dinelli at January 15, 2008 01:22 PMExcept for the occasional view of his wife, Kucinich's candidacy is a waste of the republic's time. I want to see the debate between Obama and Clinton. Sideshow horseshit like Sharpton last time and Kucinich every time is a real annoyance.
And don't even get me started on Edwards! Bill Clinton had stunk up the party so thoroughly by '01 that here's Edwards still thinking he can get away with the raunchiest farts in all of Christendom and nobody will think the less of his own vanity. Silkiness is a charlatan and a huckster. He'll be out of the race after Nevada.
Posted by Toby Petzold at January 15, 2008 01:29 PMWell, it's nice to see a Democrat fight for something.
Posted by Judith at January 15, 2008 01:40 PMsaid like a true fascist bedwetter TP....
Posted by headxray at January 15, 2008 01:41 PMtp - way to debate issues and substance.
Posted by Jim Faith at January 15, 2008 02:52 PMAs you can see in February 5th polling, Clinton really is the only candidate that needs to be heard so instead of a debate maybe NBC can do a sit-down interview with her. I am certain that I don't want to waste anyone's time with other people and that General Electric should make sure that we little peons don't hear anything that they don't want us to hear.
This is why this country is the greatest country in the world. Our large corporations are allowed to vet the candidates and then have their employees ask the remainder questions from a list also vetted by the corporate bosses(no civil liberties questions please).
Posted by wengler at January 15, 2008 03:53 PMBKK, I guess we both don't recognize snark, sometimes. You may go back and read, "he said, ironically" after I suggested you not post here. It was a way of illustrating that none of us should be telling others what to do.
The point is, I just get a little tired of so many posters telling Edwards or Kucinich supporters to "get on the bandwagon". I'm afraid you were just in the way when I wanted to unload. This is a wearying season. I'll be glad when the candidate is finally chosen; as long as it's Al Gore ;-)
Posted by DeminNewJ at January 15, 2008 04:04 PMJudith, if you're referring to Kucinich, then I agree: he is the most genuine article of them all. But since his candor and appeal are inversely proportional to the likelihood of his success, one must say at this point in the process that his participation is a detriment; he is taking away valuable time and attention from the Obama-Clinton conflict, which is the one that everyone wants to see.
Posted by Toby Petzold at January 15, 2008 04:30 PMI don't want Kucinich to participate because he was like a 'toy poodle' on Edwards pant leg in one of the previous debates.
As if Edwards was the only one he should have a disagreement with.
And to all the 'toy poodle' lovers out there I didn't mean nothing by that comment.
Posted by Seven of Six at January 15, 2008 04:56 PMJust reported from Olbermann, "Supreme court judge in Nevada ruled in favor of NBC, Kucinich will not be in the debate!"
Interesting thing about contract law.
The contract clause of the Constitution was added to the document via the back door. Rufus King, a member of the 5 person Committee of Style charged with drafting up the Constitutional Convention's work into the final document we know and love, convinced his fellow committee members to add the clause during the writing of the final draft. He had introduced the idea of a specific protection of contracts earlier in the convention and it was unceremoniously rejected. He got it added during the drafting and no one objected to it prior to the signing. So there it stayed. For better or worse.
Posted by snark at January 15, 2008 06:34 PMIt is my personal opinion that until the convention and the nominee is chosen, each candidate has something to contribute. If it is to be Obama and Hillary, Kucinich still has the right to speak. If he has something of value to contribute, then I want to hear it.
Posted by Judith at January 15, 2008 07:40 PMThe courts and the government have no business telling broadcasters who they must include and, by extension, who they must exclude from presidential debates. NBC may have been foolish to exclude Kucinich -- it's arguable -- but that's their decision, and not the court's. They can answer to their viewers for those editorial decisions, and their partners in staging the debate can find a different broadcast partner the next time. If the government forces editorial decisions on NBC, then it violates their property rights on their productions and the free speech rights of the network to decide on their own content.
Aimai, this is where Kelo comes to play. Property rights, Kelo takes that away from any American homeowner whose property is desired by some corporation or developer. Kelo was wrong, funny how the Speaker hasn't come out for the little guy. Her contributors are getting their monies worth out of her.
Posted by peter at January 15, 2008 08:24 PM