as mentioned in the thread below, I think Hillary should stick by her word and not have the Florida and Michigan delegates count. The rule of "giving" your word should still mean something, instead of changing your mind when your in a bind.
Posted by a4L at January 29, 2008 08:23 PMAlthough I have not seem the breakouts yet, it does not appear that Obama has been able to push his appeal to non-Black voters. He seems to have gained about 20% or less in FL
Sen Clinton was said to get 25% of the Black vote so her white/Hispanic vote must be over 60% or three times Obama's.
SC and FL are have very different demographics. But in neither state was Obama able to attract more then 25% of white voters
Posted by aeolius at January 29, 2008 08:37 PMas an older woman and a big Hillary supporter, I couldnt be more thrilled....However I am disgusted with the behavior of MSNBC for refusing to have the numbers on and calling it as a win for her and saying it was illegal...that was like a total news blackout and was more like the communists in Russia would do instead of a news network in a free democracy...Shame on them...More Democrats voted for HIllary tonite than Olberman has viewers...they can no longer call themselves a news organization and are just shills for Obama....shame shame shame....
Posted by athyrio at January 29, 2008 09:10 PMwouldn't keeping her word in this case depend on what your definition of "is" is?
Posted by hmmmm at January 29, 2008 09:43 PMRosenberg unhappy about Clinton.
On the 'snub', see here.
Posted by Gene at January 29, 2008 09:48 PMI'm one of the Florida voters who voted for Hillary and want my vote counted.
Posted by Experienced Voter at January 29, 2008 10:13 PMObama is an arrogant pig like Mr Bush. The more Obama shows himself, the uglier he looks. Very sad. I thought we had 2 candidates that my family can support but....
Does Obama's smirk remind of someone we know?
Posted by john at January 29, 2008 10:36 PMI think any candidate who ignores over 1 million voters does so at there own risk.
Posted by themomcat at January 29, 2008 10:50 PMThat should have been "their".
Posted by themomcat at January 29, 2008 10:54 PMI agree, John. The more people see him, the more they see how unsuited he is to lead. He's still singing the "Song of Myself," not being the Mr. Unity he likes to talk about. His behavior when he loses is really getting repugnant. I don't think it's going to go over too well with voters who see it before next Tuesday. No one likes arrogant narcissists who can't give anyone else credit. It was definitely a poor move to alienate voters in one of the largest states. If by some miracle he were to win this thing, he would desperately need those voters come November.
I know I'm not in what I would call friendly territory with the views I'm about to express, but here goes...
1) If Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, and even as someone backing Obama, I suspect she will end up winning in the end, I will definitely vote for her in November.
2) Now, having said that...in regards to both Florida and Michigan...the DNC said explicitly that the delegates would be stripped if they moved their primaries up. Now, of course, we all know that the Democratic votes in those states will be counted during the November general election. But that's not the issue here. The issue here is, why should Clinton, after at least implicitly agreeing by the DNC's rules, think that she should get the delegates ex post facto? I will sit here and tell you (though I'm sure none of you will believe me) that I would feel EXACTLY the same if Obama did it. The rules were out there and the punishments known. It's not about silencing the vote, it's about sticking to the rules. Why was it SO important for Florida and Michigan to move up? They would have been MORE important if they had their delegates intact and voted on Super Tuesday like the other 22 states. Now, those "contests" (such as they were) are a potential flash point for the rest of the primary season.
Also, you guys are just hammering Obama on this...isn't there a third candidate in the race named John Edwards or does he not count since he's not giving Clinton a fight?
Posted by Mike P at January 29, 2008 11:10 PMInteresting that despite Clinton's made for television "win" and her new found love for Michigan and Florida, Obama still has a delegate lead going into Super Tuesday. February 5 will go a long way to decide this and Clinton certainly seems to be the favorite in many important states. It is what is so baffeling to me why the Clinton's can't just run a straight up campaign without out all the spin, bait and switch, inuendo, and calculated cynicism. I don't see how any of this helps her in the long run. She's turning off half the Democratic base, driving away independents and what exactly is she gaining as a result? A news cycle win with a highly skeptical and eye rolling press? I mean if she had emphasized the importance of Florida and Michigan all along, I'd give her lots of credit, but this is just baffling to me.
Posted by Former Clinton Supporting Leaning Obama Democrat at January 29, 2008 11:33 PMMike P, Clinton is a savvy politician and she knows that the voters in Florida and Michigan will count in Nov. The DNC may have decided that Florida and Michigan will not have their delegates seated but the bottom line is that it is up to the delegates at the convention. It is also a good move for Clinton, who has been accused of being a DNC puppet, to defy the DNC. It shows that she supports the people and respects their votes and not the DNC. Not a bad political and tactical move, especially since her base is among women and Latinos.
Posted by themomcat at January 29, 2008 11:52 PMWhat behavior of Obama's has been repugnant when he loses? All his speeches, win or lose, have been gracious as far as I can tell, though I haven't heard them all.
Posted by CG at January 30, 2008 04:49 AMFrom the numbers I saw last night (and they weren't all in) Hillary got more votes than McCain--this with no campaigning in an election where democratic votes wouldn't count. Awesome.
Posted by CG at January 30, 2008 04:51 AMWhat behavior of Obama's has been repugnant when he loses?
That repugnant behavior where Billary doesn't even look at him and he is supposed to take it graciously after the bullshit Bill pulled and stand there like a smiling porch monkey. You need to put on your "Billary as Messiah" and "poor little just a woman goggles" to understand it.
Posted by phidipides at January 30, 2008 05:33 AMAhh, thanks for clearing that up!
Posted by CG at January 30, 2008 05:39 AMHow come she left SC without even appearing to thank her supporters, but flew to Florida to appear at a "victory" party?
If I had any sympathy for her before, it's gone. She's playing gutter-ball politics. Ends justify the Means. And have you noticed how divisive she is among Democrats? That's a worrisome sign.
Bottom line: She's spent years gaming the system for this campaign, and I hope with all my heart that she gets sent back to the Senate. I'll do what I can to make that happen.
Posted by nyc at January 30, 2008 06:04 AMBecause SC will be red no matter what in November, but FL has a good chance of going for the democrat. Not saying she was right to do that, but I think that's the reason.
Posted by CG at January 30, 2008 06:11 AMAs the winner, "You don't have to stand on someone's throat."
Good for Whoopi.
You know, they are always warning women and men to look for signals or signs when dating someone as to the character of that person. That translates also to just about any situation. What are the signals Obama is giving us as to his character?
John Edwards is dropping out of the race. I am sadden by this news, and wish him well.
Posted by Judith at January 30, 2008 06:28 AM"I think Hillary should stick by her word and not have the Florida and Michigan delegates count. The rule of "giving" your word should still mean something"
but, then again, when did the Clinton Tag team ever stick to the rules?
Posted by joe in oklahoma at January 30, 2008 06:38 AMhow can in reality a rule change negate an entire states delagates when it was so overwhelming for one person..it is what is
Posted by dennis at January 30, 2008 06:43 AMJohn out! Damn what do I do now? I will not vote for Billary!
This SUX!
Posted by angryman at January 30, 2008 06:51 AMThis is what I find so weak about those Clinton followers who keep looking for instances of people not respecting her in order to reinvigorate the reaction politics of Clinton as icon of all women.
Every time someone does not smile with delight at her presence is not a slap in the face of all womankind.
Nevertheless, Clinton and her followers will keep exploiting these meaningless camera shots in order to gain an advantage.
Meanwhile, news is that women are about to lose the best candidate for their rights and needs and the rights and the needs of their children and other people's children.
Reaction is reaction. It's pitiful, but it's got a long history in American politics.
Posted by Bob In Pacifica at January 30, 2008 07:04 AMAs I said in the update I just posted, Sen. Obama had stated last Fall that he'd "do what's right by Florida voters" - i.e., do what he can to seat the Florida delegates at the DNC eventually. So, let me just say I am underwhelmed by the criticism of Sen. Clinton - aka the Clinton Double Standard - on this particular topic.
Thank you, phidipides, for an injection of some much needed honesty into these "discussions" about the candidates. That subtext runs throughout Clintons' recent campaigning with Obama.
Anyway, as eriposte said, I also "just want this primary campaign to be over," so once Hillary wins the primary I can stop telling people I'm a Democrat.
Posted by Brian Bell at January 30, 2008 07:19 AMBased on the tenor of comments at TLC, it is becoming very clear that many, many supporters of the (now only two) candidates have reached the stage of literally despising the other Dem candidate. There is no reason to think this will not get worse.
People won't vote (let alone campaign for) for someone they have decided they hate or they think behaved abominably. Based on this anecodotal evidence, I think a debilitating split in the party has probably already developed.
Now, the Repubs are in terrible shape, too, with many, many conservatives having been told by Rushbo for years that they are to despise McCain, who is almost certain to win the nomination now.
So a major split in the two most ideologically committed camps makes the weak brained uninformed "independent" vote ever more crucial. That vote failed miserably in 2004, and there is no reason to think it can possibly do any better in 08.
Posted by euzoius at January 30, 2008 07:22 AMSo, let me just say I am underwhelmed by the criticism of Sen. Clinton - aka the Clinton Double Standard - on this particular topic.
Did Obama show up in Florida for any event?
Posted by Seven of Six at January 30, 2008 07:25 AMFrankly I'm underwhelmed at using a quote from Obama that he would "do what's right by Florida voters" to justify a cheap power grab. Obama did not and does not have the authority to bypass Party rules.
The rules are the rules. All the candidates knew what they were before the primaries. Hillary's eleventh hour decision that Florida counts pisses off more than Obama supporters (and I am not one). It pisses off anybody who cares about the Party being able to set rules and procedures for electing candidates. Once again, the Clintons are reinforcing the perception that they only care about their own political interests. Screw the rest of the party.
Posted by space at January 30, 2008 07:33 AMSoS - the Obama link I posted with his quote also showed that he held an informal press conference in Florida after his fundraiser in violation of the party rules. He ran a national cable TV ad earlier this month that was also broadcast in Florida in violation of party rules. So, if "the rules are the rules", I fully expect people to denounce Obama as well. The fact that the denunciation is one sided makes it clear that the Clinton Double Standard is at work here.
As far as I'm concerned, the votes of more than a million Floridians ought to count for something. Give them all to whoever you want, but they came out and voted and unlike the fraudulent MSNBC, they didn't vote "illegally" but they were disenfranchised by a bunch of party elites setting some arcane rules. Clinton deserves criticism - so does Obama - and so does the DNC.
Posted by eriposte at January 30, 2008 07:40 AMSpace,
"Power grab"...wow. That is a rather bizarre claim. Clinton is not grabbing power. She is asking the DNC to reconsider. There is nothing wrong with asking that and the DNC can turn it down. Let's not make things more unpleasant than they already are.
In fact, rather than write breathless comments insinuating a "power grab", why not take a minute to read the news?
--------
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/29/politics/fromtheroad/entry3767920.shtml
.....In fact, Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman told CBS News' Peter King tonight that she expects the Florida delegates to eventually be seated.
"In talking with [House] Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi and then confirmed by [DNC Chairman Howard] Dean, they both said that they believe that it would happen," Thurman said.
--------
I see the Obamabots have climbed down off their high chairs to join us this morning, no doubt worried about how the Edwards situation is going to hurt them. They're banging their spoons against their pudding cups, demanding that the mean lady stop winning so many votes.
Billary cheated ! WAAA! How could she be so popular when all those boys on msnbc and cnn hate her? She's bad and terrible and awful and makes you eat Lima beans! And who's voting for mean old Billary, anyway? Old people and wimminns, and Mexican dishwasher-types and people who wear ugly shoes and don't have iPods.
You know, it's just not fair that the heir to JFK's legacy His Own Self has to even compete in this race.
bullshit aside..hillary won big in florida across ethnic and gender lines...very big..those are the facts..and they count for something...beyond rediculous nonsense about who broke the rules....the people voted for gods sake..and she won big...get it?
Posted by dennis at January 30, 2008 07:54 AMActually Hillary won Florida, but no one put any effort into the state. I have read the post above and still find it hard to believe that a lot of persons are giving Hillary a "free pass" on wanting to reinstate the delegates from Florida and Michigan. At some point a person must stick by his/or her word through "thick and thin". You can judge a persons character when its things are "thin" and it is difficult to follow through with your word.
As for the Obama supposed snub..you don't have to like your opposition just respect them.
Posted by a4L at January 30, 2008 08:10 AMi don't give a shit what they do with the delagates..and this argument is one of semantics..she crushed obama in florida...and she won in michigan..all those people are not potted plants..beause of some dipshits at the dnc...
Posted by dennis at January 30, 2008 08:16 AMThis is unfortunate. The Clinton's have done is again. They have pitted groups against each other for their own personal gain. I am a life-long democrat and have voted along mostly along party priorities. But it will be a cold day in hades when I vote for Hillary! They played their political games to split the party...guess what? They did it. I wonder if others feel the way I do?
Posted by angryman at January 30, 2008 08:18 AMAnother example of Hillary hating(or stupid reporting) was Moron O'Donnell on MSNBC last night stating how BIG the Kennedy endorsement was with the Hispanic community because Bobby Kennedy was tight with Hugo Chavez.
HEY MORON!!! Robert Kennedy's family is in the Clinton camp!!! Oy Vey.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 30, 2008 08:20 AMblah blah blah ... in their zeal to prevent the nomination of the Second President Clinton. The DNC overstated their power and promised to unseat the delegates of two important states whose seats in the electorial college we will need in order to ensure that a Democrat is sitting in the White House this time next year.
Wake up Obamabots, that decision is not in the hands of the DNC, it is in the hands of the delegates in Denver. In a blatant case of hubris, the DNC thought they could play a game of chicken with the voters in FL and MI, they were mistaken and their bluff was called.
The Republicans are not shaping out to be as weak as the DNC anticipated and Dean needs to step in and fix the mess he started. We get it, he doesn't want a Clinton to win the nomination, boo hoo, we don't care what he wants, WE want a Democrat in the White House.
Posted by Whatever at January 30, 2008 08:20 AMeRiposte, Thank you. I appreciate your research and keeping us informed.
Unfortunately, my favorite candidate just dropped out.
Posted by Seven of Six at January 30, 2008 08:20 AMOf course it's a "power grab" whenever Clinton does something. She could reach for a donut and it's a "power grab." It's funny to listen to all these people adopting the right wing talking points after 7 years of defending the Clintons against the right wing noise machine. I mean, come on, "Billary?" Was it Michele "Stalkin'" Malkin or Anne Coulter who came up with that one? And it's really hilarious that Brian is praising p-dip for calling Obama a "smiling porch monkey?" Funnier than shit!
In any case, just as Obama was looking to the GE when sucking up to the 'pukes with Raygun luv, it's a smart move for Hillary to endear the FL dem voters to her by defending their votes, no more, no less. Looking for "evil" in every Clinton move is like finding a picture of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich - if you believe it, you'll see it.
They have pitted groups against each other for their own personal gain.
Could you be more self-centered? You've decided to embrace the Hillary hate and it's all the Clintons' fault? Oy vey is right!
Posted by iamcoyote at January 30, 2008 08:23 AMi want to win the next election..if obama is the nominee i will vote for him...i believe hillary is better qualified..smarter..more pragmatic ..and is a doer..all i know about obama is that he gives a good speech..and ya know what... that ain't gonna be good enough come this election...this talk about being divided..i don't get it..i don't feel that way...
Posted by dennis at January 30, 2008 08:25 AMI must be a calculating person too because I agree with the steps Hillary took to "stroke" the voters of FL. I think it was a mistake for Obama not to do something for supporters in FL. The minute I heard that HRC was going to FL when the polls closed, I would have also gone there and shake a few hands of supporters or created a quick TV ad thanking all the voters of FL and a special thanks to those who supported me. His denigration of the vote is a slap to Floridians. Hillary is doing "nice" to Floridians to, as we say in crap, cover her bets.
Posted by Prabhata at January 30, 2008 10:23 AMDennis, Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, nor was Edwards or quite a few others. Don't tell me Hillary's win in Michigan was indicative of anything, it was only indicative of her being the only name on the ballot. Michiganders aren't potted plants, no, they just weren't granted a choice in the primary.
The Michigan and Florida primary debacles could have HUGE implications in the general election. Michigan is home of the Reagan Republicans, literally, and Florida, what more can be said? Florida is a more important swing state than Ohio, and after Ohio, Michigan is literally the next most important swing state. Between Florida and Michigan there are 44 electoral college votes, almost one-10th of the entire electoral college votes. Excluding the aforementioned Ohio, there really aren't any other swing states with this many electoral votes.
I know his 'net roots supporters might not want to hear this, but I think Howard Dean and DNC's committee fucked up big-time with trying to exclude Florida and Michigan's delegates. It's liable to cost the Democratic candidate votes if not whole states, and it further divides the party in unnecessary ways. Speaking of divisions...
A. Rantel, this "Obamabot" came to the conclusion some time ago that Hillary would be the Democratic nominee, long before Florida. And don't worry about having to put up with us "Obamabots" climbing down off our "high chairs to join" you Democrats. I'm pretty sure a lot of us won't be climbing down off anything to join you Democrats, not if it means voting for Hillary. Go ahead and gloat. Let's see how Hillary does against McCain with more than half the African-American vote sitting it out and with the liberals, particularly the 'net roots door knockers, phone bankers and small-dollar donors, sitting out the general election, too. And don't put your fears off onto us about how we're to blame if a Republican is elected. We're almost through 8 years of Bush. 4 years of McCain is scary, but not as scary as where we've been under Bush. Maybe helping to deny Hillary the Oval Office will send a message to the Beltway.
Posted by Brian Bell at January 30, 2008 11:19 AMbrian bell
obama edwards biden richardson were on the ballot and pulled their name..there supporters were urged to vote uncommitted..which they had the option to do..there was also the option of a write in..which i assume if you were a fanatic supporter of any ..you would do..no one campaigned there including hillary..with all that she got 60% of the vote..pretty close to what she got in florida..my my what a cowinkadink..i found your argument to be specious
Posted by dennis at January 30, 2008 11:54 AMYou guys have GOT to be kidding me! You are cool with a million votes in FL being metaphorically tossed in the trash? Just b/c Hillary won the most of those votes? Are you seriously THAT petty?!!??!
If the DNC (with the mainstream media's full cooperation) tried to discount the votes/delegates in SOUTH CAROLINA you guys would be going ABSOLUTELY APESHIT! As you should. But I guess anything that hurts Hillary (tossing vote counts in MI and FL, both states she WON), is COOOOOOOLIO!
WHAT. EVER!
Posted by lima beans at January 30, 2008 12:00 PMMaybe helping to deny Hillary the Oval Office will send a message to the Beltway.
You keep telling yourself that, honey. No one really cares if you sit this one out because the only message you're sending is that you're not even bowing out out of principle, you're gonna keep your precious vote to yourself out of pique. The only message you're sending is "waaaaah!"
Posted by iamcoyote at January 30, 2008 12:05 PMi find it hard to believe it was a snub, maybe Hillary was the intruder kinda of needed the attention from Sen. Kennedy. She should have been seen with traitor Joe, because her husband helped him defeat a true democrat Ned Lamont
Posted by a4L at January 30, 2008 01:32 PMReading through this comment thread it's become abundantly clear that perhaps this country does deserve to be flushed down the toilet bowl.
It's like watching the movie Lifeboat.
Posted by snark at January 30, 2008 02:36 PMIt's like watching the movie Lifeboat.
Hmm. I'm hungry - we should start with the lima beans, I think!
Posted by iamcoyote at January 30, 2008 03:23 PMWhoopi was absolutely right.
Obama is ungracious and petty. And there were SEVERAL pictures showing him looking straight at Hillary with hate in his eyes.
Thank you , Whoopi, for standing up as a Black woman and telling Barak like it is.
He's not ready for the White House.
Posted by Mary at January 30, 2008 06:33 PMreading again through this thread notice how Hillary creates dissent in the democratic ranks..kinda of like a toxic person.
Posted by a4L at January 30, 2008 09:17 PM