Turkey is a NATO ally, on the march 'cause they feel like it.
We did it, why can't they? We lie about what we do, why can't they?
I just love how a worker's party is so conveniently terrorist. I have no idea what the real story here is, but I'd never, very look to my own government for a straight answer.
[sigh] What an incredible mess.
Posted by paradox at February 27, 2008 02:36 PMEver. Ever look to my own government, sorry.
Posted by paradox at February 27, 2008 02:39 PMBush never held a meeting on terrorism for 8 months after stealing office.
Now I'm watching a heated food fight on CNN that despite being the chair of the Foreign Relations Committee for the past 13 months, Obama didn't bother to hold a hearing on the dismal progress in Afghanistan and missed 39% of the Senate votes.
Can't Obama run and chew gum at the same time?
Should Mark Penn, the $5,000,000 man have pointed this out sooner for Hillary?
Maybe Turkey could also march into Afghanistan and finish the job.
Posted by TIKI AL at February 27, 2008 03:00 PM"Turkey and the Kurds are our friends" is one of our great Mid-East foreign policy contradictions, along with "Israel and Saudi Arabia are our friends," and "Shi'ite Iraqis are our friends, but Iran and Muqtada al-Sadr are not our friends."
Most Americans are too ill-informed to notice these things, but I've said to anyone willing to listen from nearly the get-go that Turkey vs. the Kurds was the most likely flash point. However, it's also the easiest flash point to contain regionally. No one but the U.S. even pretends to like the Kurds. We'll sell them out in a heartbeat, we have done so in the past. Don't underestimate the U.S. government's ability to sell it, too, even after years of holding the Kurds up as poster-children victims of Saddam. It'll become -- oh, I don't know -- Turks liberating the Kurds from terrorists, and John Q. Public of the U.S.A. will eat it up. The Turks can crush the Kurds like grapes, no problem. I don't know that it will take care of Turkey's terrorist problems, but it will destroy Kurdistan if Turkey chooses.
I don't know how this ends up, but for now, I don't see it spreading too much farther for the next couple weeks at least, and I'm sure the Turks will stop at Kirkuk or Mosul. The real truth is, even if we wanted to stop the Turks by force, we could not do so.
Posted by Brian Bell at February 27, 2008 03:26 PMThe Turks have been waiting a long time for this offensive and aren't about to be calling ot off too soon---and the Turkish public is loving it.
How will such an invasion affect the Shi'ite/Kurd alliannce "running" Iraq? What does the "nationalist" wing of Iraq politicians think? Do the Arab Iraqis care what a mess the Kurdish Iraqis are in (or have gotten themseleves into?) What can America do, realistically? We aren't going to fire a single shot on the Turks, obviously. And what does Iran think about all this?
I'm sure the crackerjack Bushco Team will sort everything out.....
Posted by euzoius at February 27, 2008 03:50 PM3,973
Posted by Judith at February 27, 2008 04:12 PMParadox (and everyone),
May I please recommend the documentary film, "Good Kurds, Bad Kurds"? Netflix has it, and I also have a few copies, which I will gladly lend to anyone who wishes to see it. It will help clarify for you the issues, and explain who are the PKK, and why they are a problem for the Turks and vice versa.
The film is mainly about Turkish Kurds and the PKK.
FYI, contrary to the propaganda you hear all the time, ny far the most oppressed Kurdish population anywhere is and always has been the Kurds of Turkey. By comparison Iraqi Kurds have had a picnic. And I never saw such deep and vicious and pervasive racism as you see from everyday Turks regarding Kurds.
Posted by Shirin at February 27, 2008 04:19 PMOutstanding post, Turkana! I'm curious as well about how Iran's Kurdish problem fits into the equation, though. At one point during the US invasion of Iraq, there were troops on the Turk/Iraq border, weren't there? And they were lobbing mortars over the border just recently.
Posted by iamcoyote at February 27, 2008 06:11 PM"With the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003, tensions between the Kurds and the Turkmen grew substantially. As a result, Kirkuk soon became the only violent non-Arab city in Iraq during the Iraq War.
The government of Turkey has helped fund such political organizations as the Iraqi Turkmen Front, which opposes Iraqi federalism and in particular the proposed annexation of Kirkuk to the Kurdistan Regional Government.
...the policies of Kurdification by KDP and PUK after 2003 (with non-Kurds being pressures (sic) to move) have prompted serious inter-ethnic problems."
Iraqi Turkmen, Present Status http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Turkmen
Turks have a low opinion of America also, with good reason. Time to leave.
Posted by Pvt. Keepout at February 27, 2008 09:02 PMAnybody else remember back in the 70s when Henry K betrayed the Kurds in Iran to placate the Shah? Suspect the Kurds do as it has been the standard practice for Yanks and Brits for some time. What's chances the the worm will turn?
Posted by andhowe at February 27, 2008 09:32 PMParadox said
"Turkey is a NATO ally, on the march 'cause they feel like it.
We did it, why can't they? We lie about what we do, why can't they?
I just love how a worker's party is so conveniently terrorist. I have no idea what the real story here is, but I'd never, very look to my own government for a straight answer.
[sigh] What an incredible mess"
Willy's answer:
Don't be fooled by their name, the fact they're called the workers party is a hold over from the days the Soviet Union used to pay their bills to cause chaos on Nato's flank (Turkey)
To assume they're some sort of Union that represents workers is a tad bit far fetched.
The PKK is a ruthless terrorist organization that has killed more people than Bin Laden can in his wildest dreams. The PKK is (proudly) responsible for the deaths of more than 30,000 men women and children a fact which they often brag about through their media outlets in Europe.
The PKK's main targets are often schools, school buses and hospitals. The PKK calls these "soft" targets, easy to get to.
After our invasion of Iraq the Iraqi government lost total control over the northern parts of the region, during this time the Kurdish administration popped up with a ruthless tribal leader named Barzani. Barzani then uses our tax dollars struck started giving the terror group shelter and weapons to start their attacks on schools and hospitals in Turkey once more.
His reasoning was very simple, use the terror organization as a trump card against Turkey. He was further embolded by the fact that since the United States military is stuck in a quagmire in the middle of Iraq with the Sunni insurgents the United States would have no choice but to protect him.
He was right to a certain degree, there are times where our government has to make tough choices, if shaking up with a brutal tribal leader who funds terrorism was going to help us put more energy into fighting the insurgency we do it.
His major miscalculation however was the fact the United States military wouldn't back him forever, backing such a blood thristy funder of terrorism isn't exactly what we American's like to do unless our backs are to the wall.
In come the oft mentioned Iraq troop surge. The troop worked well enough that our military was able to bring a small element of stability in the Sunni triangle which gave our policy makers more flexibility on the Kurdish terrorism issue.
The fact we gave the Turks the green light to go after the terrorists in Northern Iraq after the surge calmed down the sunni triangle isn't exactly a coincidence.
The Turks will pull out in two weeks, but how often and how many troops they send in will be in direct correlation with how successful the United States military is in bringing more stability.
The more stability in Iraq will mean us giving the Turks more freedom to go after the Terrorists.
I wonder when terrorists and their sponsors will realize that they have no real allies and that as soon as the time is ripe they will be sold down the river again (rightfully so)
Barzani is learning this lesson the hard way.
I won't shed a tear when the Turks eliminate people who target hospitals and school buses. But ofcourse you can leave it to members of the media who recieve millions of dollars from Kurdish networks in Washington to write the stories in a way that make us feel sorry for these poor terrorists.
How dare the Turks attack people who are blowing up school buses.
Posted by Willy Sancez at February 27, 2008 10:07 PMPlease watch the film Good Kurds, Bad Kurds, and decide for yourselves who are the terrorists and who are the victims and who are the freedom fighters.
Posted by Shirin at February 27, 2008 11:20 PM"With the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003, tensions between the Kurds and the Turkmen grew substantially."
Tensions grew because the Kurdish mafias led by Barzani and Talibani were taking advantage of their status with the invaders to do a bit of "demographic adjusting" in various areas, particularly Kirkuk.
"As a result, Kirkuk soon became the only violent non-Arab city in Iraq during the Iraq War."
That is not accurate. Kirkuk might have been the most violent "non-Arab city", thanks to the activities of the Kurdish mafias, but it was and is hardly the only violent one.
"The government of Turkey has helped fund such political organizations as the Iraqi Turkmen Front, which opposes Iraqi federalism and in particular the proposed annexation of Kirkuk to the Kurdistan Regional Government."
In that the Iraqi Turkmen Front is in harmony with the overwhelming majority of their fellow Iraqis.
"...the policies of Kurdification by KDP and PUK after 2003 (with non-Kurds being pressures (sic) to move) have prompted serious inter-ethnic problems."
"Pressured to move" is certainly putting a prettier face on it than it deserves. Thousands of non-Kurdish families were simply thrown out of their homes. In addition, their belongings from vehicles to household appliances to animals were either destroyed or taken away from them by the Kurdish mafias.
"Turks have a low opinion of America also, with good reason. Time to leave."
Kurds aren't crazy about them either. The thrill is gone now that the reality has started to set in.
It has been time to leave since March 19, 2003!
Posted by Shirin at February 28, 2008 12:25 AMShirin please stop spreading propaganda in favor of these terrorist organizations. Aren't you ashamed of yourself?
How can you possibly sit here and try to spread false positive information about an organization that attacks schools and hospitals, killing and maiming innocent children.
How do people like you sleep at night?
Take your "the terrorists are the victims" babble else where.
Posted by Willy Sancez at March 1, 2008 04:33 PMthe us need to unify the kurds, sunni and shite, just a though on Iraq and the Taliban, they killing 2 birds with one stone
Posted by rawdawgbuffalo at March 1, 2008 09:37 PM