Good point about Drudge from the poster, but don't forget Andrew Sullivan! Only a few months ago, when Sully would go on one of his daily rants about Hillary the murderous ball-busting maniac, bloggers like John Cole and Kevin Drum would shake their heads and say, "Well, that's Sully. He's always been like that." You know, no big deal, he's obviously off his rocker about Hill.
Now Sully's message is repeated every day, all the old Fox talking points are taken out and reviewed as if they were true, and once again everything that happens in the campaign is because of some sort of diabolical plan on her part.
I didn't want her to run, because I assumed that the wingnuts would bring up all the old, discredited stuff against her. I'm utterly flabbergasted that it's the left instead.
Posted by merciless at March 15, 2008 10:13 AMHere is a scandal without one shred of proof that the Clintons are involved in any way, even to leak it to the media, and yet "It's Hillary's fault."
Is this a great country or what?
Posted by myiq2xu at March 15, 2008 10:18 AMABC News and Fox "News" purchased the Wright tapes many months ago. There is absolutely no way Hillary had anything to do with this story coming out.
Even if Hillary did drop out of the race when David Plouffe told her to do, this story would have come out.
Also, Obama saying that he never heard Rev Wright's hate speech is implausible. Can you imagine being a member of that Church and knowing the truth, but not being able to speak it because you know it would torpedo Obama's campaign?
I wonder how that feels.
There must be thousands of members of that Church who know that Obama was there many times when Wright preached hatred for America and White people.
Wright didn't just look out in the audience to make sure Obama wasn't there so he could then preach hate.
A leopard never changes spots. My Dad used to tell me that.
Ezra has always wanted to be one of the big boys- he's well on his way.
Josh, John, Markos, Ezra.
They're nothing but the next generation of Corporate Media Talking Heads- new format, new medium- same old shit.
alternative, my ass.
Posted by sickofit at March 15, 2008 10:38 AMThe Republicans and their surrogates will have no compunction about tying Obama to Rev. Wright in the general election should he be the Democratic nominee for president.
That is when it will be seen whether the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) will follow the Repub lead.
Anyone want to place bets? I'm on the MCM aiding St. McBush.
The MCM feels it has the right to select our nominees and then our president. They have a pretty dismal record in that. I'm still not sure why they turned on Poppy Bush and gave Bill Clinton a fiar to middling chance to make his case to the public. They sure did a job on Al Gore, Howard Dean, John Kerry, and this go round, John Edwards and Hillary Clinton.
We don't deserve them, but part of the blogosphere which was willing to fight the MCM has now joined with them--the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Watch out for such friends, dear bloggers.
Posted by jawbone at March 15, 2008 10:54 AMI was surprised to see the April '07 NYTimes article mentioning Wright's statements.
I'm amazed bloggers didn't pick up on it to help their readers understand this relatively unknown presidential contender.
I'm disappointed it wasn't done on any of the blogs I read regularly--which are pretty numerous.
A warning to be more vigilant and not depend on the A-Listers. More personal investigation and searching. More, uh...work.
Posted by jawbone at March 15, 2008 10:59 AMI doubt if most of us have ever had a spare $20,000 to donate to a church. It's inconceivable to me that a man making donations of that amount could possibly be unaware of the sorts of sermons preached by Pastor Wright. I'm also curious about whether Obama's donations helped fund these DVDs.
This is just the first chapter of this story. We've got a ways to go.
Posted by katiebird at March 15, 2008 11:08 AMI'm kind of amazed at how weak-minded the liberal blogosphere turned out to be. They've been listening to each other for so long that they've collectively become one giant Borg of anti-Clinton hatred. Do they ever even disagree with each other any more? Did any one of them say, hey, wait a minute, her answer on 60 Minutes was just fine?
As for this latest thing with Wright--there's zero evidence that Clinton had anything to do with this, and it's clear that her campaign has decided not to make any comments on it. But do Ezra Klein or any of the geniuses of the lefty blogosphere ask themselves, if I were Hillary Clinton, when would I release this information? a) a week or so before Iowa, b) a week or so before Super Tuesday, or c) after most of the contests are over, but six weeks before the next one? I mean, seriously.
Posted by Orange at March 15, 2008 11:18 AMEzra has always wanted to be one of the big boys- he's well on his way.
Josh, John, Markos, Ezra.
They're nothing but the next generation of Corporate Media Talking Heads- new format, new medium- same old shit.
alternative, my ass.
sickofit, Name one blogger that wouldn't do it for the money offered and exposure for their blog.
I personally would be grateful for a new explosion of left wing journalism or as you put it, "Corporate Media Talking Heads". We need new investigative journalist's working with big name bloggers to cover the story's that aren't being covered. Even if it is in the same "format" and "medium".
I don't see you complaining about Jane Hamsher, Christy, Marcy Wheeler, Swopa, Bob Geiger or Taylor Marsh.
There are so many good bloggers out there. I wish they had a stage to produce their work for more exposure and money. They would give MSM a run for their money and keep them honest. Can you imagine being able to put Billmon, eRiposte, the Rude Pundit, Digby, Jesus General and Steve Soto on a regular payroll? That would knock the shit out anything MSM has going and people would soon realize who speaks truth to power!
Posted by Seven of Six at March 15, 2008 11:24 AMHow you can include Taylor Marsh and Marcy Wheeler in the same sentence is beyond me.
Posted by chris at March 15, 2008 11:28 AMY'alls war with Foxnews has been so misplaced. I read several commentors here say they did present the most balance coverage of the primaries. I saw that Barack Obama was on Hannity's show last night. I've been reading about Obama's church for a while and as you've pointed out...it's been out there if you wanted to pay attention. I remember someone here posting an email going around alerting people to Obama's church and ridiculing those for passing it around.
It seems many here are blinded by the stars of the party to pay attention to the details playing out in front of them. His church could have been attended to many months ago...not now when it matters more. You dismiss a legitimate news network or networks...you boycott them...the CBC wanted to have a debate there and you told them no. What a message you fine people have sent.
"That said, Wright, among others, will eventually prove very damaging, not just to Sen. Obama but to the Democratic party, if he becomes the eventual nominee."
Another error that didn't need to happen, had you not boycotted other news sources. You fine people always seem to blame the MSM or MCM when it seems you only have yourselves to blame.
Here's another...
"“If you’re not going to count my vote, I’m not going to give you my money,” said Mr. Cejas, who was the United States ambassador to Belgium from 1998 to 2001." NYTimes
"“My wife and I could max out, and we won’t,” said Ira Leesfield, a Miami lawyer who has given $61,500 to the committee since 1997. “We’re dissatisfied with the D.N.C. not taking the bull by the horns.”" NYTimes
Go ahead and don't count those 1.7 million "illegal" votes in Florida...
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 11:44 AMHow you can include Taylor Marsh and Marcy Wheeler in the same sentence is beyond me.
Only in regards as bloggers who have gotten some minor media attention.
Yes, I know that Marcy is much more intelligent and ivestigative, whereas Marsh is pure entertainment. Yet, they both have appeal for the MSM.
peter STFU! Take your RNC talking points and bu$h propaganda elsewhere!
Posted by Seven of Six at March 15, 2008 11:48 AMI saw that Hannity interview with Wright (I can't believe it was a year ago). Blaming Hillary for a story that was festering for about a year on the Fox Network is weird.
Posted by Daryl at March 15, 2008 11:53 AMIt's astounding how easily bloggers like Ezra, Matt and Josh get caught up in the whole Beltway media narrative. We used to love those guys for their independent perspective.
I'm sure Ezra is telling the truth that the word around town is that Clinton was probably involved. That's because the conventional wisdom around town is that Hillary is a calculating bitch who will say anything and do anything to be elected. Bloggers used to FIGHT that sort of fact-free narrative, not reinforce it!
I am not smart enough to know whether the Wright issue will be a killer for Obama in the GE. Maybe yes, maybe no. The important thing is to let it play out one way or the other; everyone is hearing this story and the poll numbers will provide an answer! If the GOP can't dent Obama with this one, they probably can't dent him with anything. And if it does sink Obama, then at least we have someone else we can nominate.
The scenario where we don't get to see how it plays out, because everyone decides to make it a story about Evil Bitch Hillary for no reason, is the worst possible outcome for Democrats.
Posted by Steve at March 15, 2008 11:56 AMOr Obama, who I don't think has said anything about the Wright stuff being pushed by the Clinton camp, could meet it head on (post at HuffPo, appearances on FOX, MSNBC and CNN) and face it down and then also sit down with the Chicago Tribune and the Sun Times to settle the Rezko issue.
I agree Clinton has gotten tougher coverage than Obama but the tendency to see any criticism of Clinton as CDS has gotten a bit out of hand.
Posted by Mike P at March 15, 2008 11:59 AM"Take your RNC talking points and bu$h propaganda elsewhere!"
Wow, talk about "derangement", where's the Bush "propaganda"? Where's the RNC talking points? Who is Obama responding too? Certainly not Republicans...Democrats.
Most Americans would find the notion that we are crypto-supremacists insulting and offensive. And yet two of the most popular people in the US choose to attend the church of a minister who apparently makes that a recurring theme of his ministry. In Obama’s case, he has given over $22,000 to support Wright and his message in 2006 alone.
Given the intense media interest in Mormon underwear and LDS doctrine in the fall of 2007, one might expect a little more scrutiny of the much more political and racially-charged message coming from the pulpit of the Trinity United Church. It looks like that may have already begun, and the reputations of both Barack Obama and Oprah Winfrey rest on how quickly and adeptly they can distance themselves from the debacle.
300 post at Oprah.com in the last 24 hours.
Howard Dean left his church over a bike path. We laughed at the superficiality of that choice, but Obama has a much better reason to repudiate Trinity — and Wright’s supposed retirement won’t come nearly in time to rescue him from this problem.
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 12:03 PMseven of six: I may come back to this later.
There is much I could write in response to your comment, but I only have time for a little bit:
Think about how anyone who is paid by "corporate media" (GE/Disney/Viacom/Time-Warner) could EVER be truly alternative in message or politics.
It will never happen- which is why one should not aspire to be the next Chris Matthews if your goal is to provide an alternative voice-- to challenge the CORPORATIONS WHO ARE RUNNING THE COUNTRY.
We don't merely need new voices on the airwaves- we need new "airwaves"- new channels of communication that are beyond the reach of military contractors, pharmaceutical companies, agribusiness, & the financial services industry.
Anyone who "crosses over" to the current corporate world of media- in America- will inevitably be changed (and often without being aware of it).
I don't have a ready solution- but I do know that there are journalists who are not in it "for the money."
The little group I mentioned seems to be reaching for something other than truth.
Posted by sickofit at March 15, 2008 12:05 PMIn any event, the Republican Swift Boaters have all they need to turn nominee Obama into Malcolm X by November.
Posted by bob h at March 15, 2008 12:05 PM“His wife is angry, his minister is angry - why can’t Mr. Unity bring a little hope and reconciliation into their lives?”
Come on Senator Obama, you can do it...you're our deliverer.
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 12:11 PMBrilliant piece of work.
Posted by stellaa at March 15, 2008 12:14 PMI thought for sure, Wright would prove a deadly scandal for Obama and yet CDS has shown me how wrong that was. It's like it didn't even happen. Unreal.
Wright has me absolutely worried. Obama's nomination will be a disaster because it'll prove all those right-wing myths about liberals to be true: we're America-hating, crazy radicals. Also, Obama's campaign of smearing the Clintons as racists will confirm the stereotype that blacks play the race card when the going gets tough.
Before, I just thought Obama would lose the GE. Now, I'm terrified the Democratic party will be savaged as well with him as our nominee.
Posted by Nathan at March 15, 2008 12:17 PMthey are dead wrong about one thing. well more than one thing. but the point I was going to make is that it IS going to "help" Hillary.
first off ABC news, as far as I know, the first reputable news source to go with the story, says right in the write up that they bought a bunch of DVDs from the church website and compiled the greatest hits themselves.
but back to Hillary. anyone who thinks this is not going to help Hillary is delusional. this is not going away. there are hundreds (thousands?) of hours of the bile spewed by this nutcase and it is going to be going out over the airwaves nonstop for the next few weeks. FOX particularly is in love with this story but Anderson Cooper went at it pretty hard last night too.
also Obama dug his own grave when he made the rounds of the cable shows and basically threw the gauntlet down Gary Hart style and pretty much challenged anyone see if they can find an instance of Obama being around when this filth was spewed.
I am betting that will not be very hard.
it was really sort of funny. it only illustrated how much of a free ride he has gotten so far and how because of it he thinks he can say pretty much anything (I didnt know he ever said stuff like this?? WTF who does he think he is kidding?) and get away with it.
this is going to be fun to watch.
Hillary is now going to win Pennsylvania by 25 points and Michigan by nearly as much IMHO.
and the superdelegates, whos sole purpose is to save us from another McGovern debacle, are going to be watching this with growing horror.
Talking about MSM or MCM, Your NYTimes tried to help its allies the Democrats out by burying the Wright story. The Washington Post has it on the front page. Where was it covered on your local newspaper?
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 12:24 PMpeter STFU! Take your RNC talking points and bu$h propaganda elsewhere!
Posted by Seven of Six at March 15, 2008 11:48
AM
You can call them whatever you want. Let's see, what was that famous line from Col Nathan R Jessep?
Something about the truth wasn't it? Can you handle it?
Posted by jj at March 15, 2008 12:42 PM"Your NYTimes?" Who are you talking to, peter?
They helped lie us into a war.
You can have them.
Say hello to Bill Kristol for me.
"sickofit"
Posted by snow-moon at March 15, 2008 12:42 PM"I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies."
It took me a moment to realize that the reference to "our allies" pertains to Wright's anti-Israel rants.
What I'd really like to know more about, though, is Wright's position on the AIDS virus. He writes that "We started AIDS;" what is that supposed to mean? Factually, it's incorrect. I believe that AIDS originated in Africa. It's possible that the claim that "We started AIDS" is intended as an indictment of the San Francisco bath house culture that did so much to spread the disease, but I've seen no indication that this is what Wright has in mind. In any event, San Francisco didn't "start" the virus.
***
Discover an admiring allusion to this vein of Wright's rhetoric in Obama's 1995 memoir "Dreams From My Father" about the first sermon Obama heard Wright give:
"The title of Reverend Wright’s sermon that morning was “The Audacity of Hope.”
...
"And so it went, a meditation on a fallen world. While the boys next to me doodled on their church bulletin, Reverend Wright spoke of Sharpsville and Hiroshima, the callousness of policy makers in the White House and in the State House. As the sermon unfolded, though, the stories of strife became more prosaic, the pain more immediate.""B. Obama
When this is over, the lesson to take away is to consider how many of our vaunted bloggers on the left are no different from many of the bloggers on the right.
For quite a long time, Ezra has been blind to many issues, willfully blind to others, and all too willing to parrot the talking points of the day.
David Mamet recently wrote an essay on how he was no longer a brain-dead liberal. I may have read it wrong, but he wasn't disavowing liberalism itself, he was stressing the importance of thought, and questioning authority, even our own.
Posted by jerry at March 15, 2008 01:12 PMBy his own description, Rev Wright is a believer in, and practitioner of, Black Liberation Theology. That is a movement that came into being in the 1960s, has been around for a long time, and is a well developed movement in the USA. I didn't know it even existed until this dustup.
Many ministers, black and white, have criticized and continue to criticize the Black Liberation Theology movement-but not Jeremiah Wright.
Wright did not stumble into his radical, anti-American statements-they are central to his success as a pastor, at the core of his lifelong beliefs.
Obama had to have been aware of the movement that inspired his minister.
Coming from these beliefs, it is now easier to understand Michelle Obama's statement that she is only now "proud of her country."
"Coming from these beliefs, it is now easier to understand Michelle Obama's statement that she is only now "proud of her country.""
I second that comment...it's easy to see, now.
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 01:17 PMcan you inmagine the 527 commercials in a general election?
this is what I mean when I say that the super delegates are going to be watching this with growing horror.
they are not stupid.
Capt Howdy:
If Obama thought he was having trouble getting Reagan democrats now wait until this story lingers a week or two. Folks like Ezra may think he'll get thru this alright but I think they are kidding themselves. The allure of cross over appeal is about to come to an end.
PA by 25? And counting.
Posted by Daryl at March 15, 2008 02:05 PMPeter- I don't know what you're up to here - and I haven't listened to Wright, so I can't comment on your contributions to the discussion.
But don't bring "AIDS" into this- it pisses some of us off IMMENSELY when people like you try to use HIV to score cheap political points. Unless you yourself have HIV- or you treat people with HIV- or are very close to someone with HIV- STFU (to borrow from Seven of Six). I don't care what you think about the subject.
By the way, to say that HIV might not have been a naturally-occurring disease in humans is not the same thing as saying it was cooked up in a lab for the purposes of genocide.
There are some who believe it was actually an accident resulting from the good intentions of medical science.
Go away - and watch a video.
Better yet, go do some volunteer work in an AIDS clinic.
Posted by snow-moon at March 15, 2008 02:35 PMBy his own description, Rev Wright is a believer in, and practitioner of, Black Liberation Theology.
Conservative critics have accused Wright's Black liberation theology of promoting black separatism. Wright has rejected this notion by saying that "The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history."
Yet, during the 60's and early 70's he was in the U.S. Military and working to earn his degrees in college. So no CLK, he is not a "practitioner of, Black Liberation Theology."
Spread the lies elsewhere! In fact, you're missing FAUX News as we speak!
"practitioner of, Black Liberation Theology."
I wont link to it but I suggest you use the google watch his interview with Hannity where HE says repeatedly and over and over and over that is exactly what he is. he makes it absolultely unmistakably clear that is what he is.
"PA by 25? And counting"
and onward and upward
it aint over.
snow-moon
Maybe you should listen to Rev Wright's lovely videos before accusing peter of bringing AIDS into it. Rev Wright sermonizes that AIDS was created by the US and given to Black people by the CIA in order to kill all the Black people.
Seems to me that's what Peter was bringing up. One more nail from Wright into the Obama electoral coffin.
Posted by RalphB at March 15, 2008 02:58 PMI wasn't "bringing it in here". It's one of the many area's that the Rev. Wright preaches to. He asserts we made it as a method of genocide to be used against the people of Africa. He's not in any mainstream and by Obama's being under his spiritual leadership, he isn't either.
Posted by peter at March 15, 2008 03:00 PMSomething about the truth wasn't it? Can you handle it?
I'd love to handle the truth. Unfortunately this administration and the RNC doesn't know what it it is. They piously say they speak the truth, and try and spin it as the truth, change history and laws to make it the truth, but you know what jj, it's still a bunch of propaganda from your president and party!
So when are those bu$h twins going to serve on those "Romantic getaways"?
Posted by Seven of Six at March 15, 2008 03:43 PMSo when are those bu$h twins going to serve on those "Romantic getaways"?
Posted by Seven of Six at March 15, 2008 03:43 PM
You are very stale.
Josh Marshall and Ezra Klein are Washington suck-ups. They are already betrothed to Obama. The superdelegates? They're probably a bit more particular. Obama's inlaws may not pass muster at the convention.
Posted by cygnus at March 15, 2008 04:01 PMSeven of Six
Your attack of CLK's factual statement about Black Liberation Theology is directly contradicted by the man's own words. CLK knows her/his facts. Try it yourself.
Posted by VocielessInDC at March 15, 2008 05:18 PMMuslims Against Sharia call on Senators McCain and Obama to cut all ties with their racist, Islamophobic, and anti-Semitic supporters.
McCain: http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccains-spiritual-guide-destroy-islam.html
Obama: http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/03/racist-congregation-cheering-racist.html
Above post was me. My bad.
always amusing to see the multiple personalities of pants pissing peter/jarjar jj/bagless bagley/perfesser jay, etc.
Posted by gay veteran at March 16, 2008 06:09 AMI actually commented on that one, but I doubt it'll make it past the mod.
Oh well.
Posted by julia at March 16, 2008 06:14 AMYour attack of CLK's factual statement about Black Liberation Theology is directly contradicted by the man's own words. CLK knows her/his facts. Try it yourself.
Obviously, you did not see the part I highlighted. He has morphed Black Liberation Theology or transcended it. But take it as you will, I'm sure FAUX News has told you what to think.
Posted by Seven of Six at March 16, 2008 08:59 AM
Bravo!
Obama is a brilliant orator and I admire him for that.
He has more charisma than HRC
But he's become almost a religious icon for some of the "progressive" crowd. They are following their gut and ignoring their brain!
The ugly hate speak from Obama followers is the best evidence of this problem. It's put me off of supporting him now.
I will vote dem regardless of the nominee. We have two wonderful candidates.
Personally, I would hope that Americans in general would have enough intelligence to not get caught up in all this external crap. Consider the source and move on to the facts, the personal statements or actions of the candidates. So Obama's crazy pastor said some radical stuff. Obama does not subscribe to those beliefs. I mean, you can go to church and not believe everything you're told, but go for the unity and community. I don't believe for a second that Obama believes what Wright spouted, and won't unless I hear it from Obama himself.
Meanwhile real issues are being glassed over. Being torn over who to support, I wish the MSM and blogs alike would be more aggressive about actual candidate issues, like why won't Hillary release her tax returns for last seven years, as well as her earmarks? Why won't McCain do some straight-talk about his campaign finance issues? I'm a fence sitter, who was mainly leaning towards Clinton until the story about her not releasing her tax returns, and then that bit about her giving ammo to McCain by saying he was qualified over Obamam to answer the phone at 3am. I want to hear more about this, from the candidates and not talking heads, than preacher-gate.
Posted by NorCalGal at March 16, 2008 09:39 AMHillary's a racist because of what Ferraro said, but Obama doesn't have anything to do with Wright or Farrakhan or Samantha Power?
Posted by Moon at March 16, 2008 10:12 AMGreat post..!
The irrationality of blaming everything that goes wrong with the Obama campaign on HRC has been so over the top...
The Obama campaign has been race baiting HRC and her surrogates for months now, it was only a question of time before they got nailed by their own actions...I would urge you to read "Race Man" a recent article by Sean Wilnetz in TNR...those that live by the sword, die by the sword...
The free pass that Obama has gotten had to come to an end...
It's true that the left wing blogosphere has totally gone into the tank for Obama this can illustrated by visiting the formally reliable source for good information...Buzz Flash...they have become Obama campaign HQ's in their vile accusations and slanderous attacks against HRC...anti Hillary 24/7...
Since neither candidate will have enough delegates to win before Denver, I just hope theres still time for the Dem super-delegates to select the most viable candidate - HRC - without it splitting the party...and that they have the courage of their convictions and won't be shamed into supporting Obama by race baiter such as Jesse Jackson Jr and his ilk...
Posted by David M. Quintana at March 16, 2008 10:37 AMThank you for saying so clearly that which my rage and irritation has prevented me from saying cogently.
Posted by gloria at March 16, 2008 10:41 AMRasmussen has Obama's negatives rising to 49 percent, versus 51 percent for Clinton and 41 percent for McCain. McCain beats both in the general election poll.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
A big amen, here. I'm an Obama supporter, but I long ago lost my patience with people infected with CDS. Some people just can't let go of their partisanship even against other democrats. It is maddening, particularly given how this "civil war" mentality is exactly what has been crippling politics for a while now, and one of the big things Obama is running against.
But one nit pick: Clinton is *NOT* a progressive. Neither is Obama, for that matter.
Posted by Shade Tail at March 16, 2008 11:38 AMObama is not getting my support because of where he stands on two top issues. Ending The Iraq War and Universal Healthcare.
Obama's top foreign affairs advisor, Samantha Power said that his 16 month withdrawl plan was just a "best case scenario" and that it's just something he's saying as candidate for president. What? That sounds more like McCain's plan. We could still be in Iraq for years if Obama gets in office. I think she was fired for telling us what they discuss in private about Iraq and not the "monster" comment. Listen for yourself what they are planning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzy3lObigF0
In regards to Heathcare, Obama has plenty of negatives to tell you about Clinton's plan to distract you from the fact that there is "No Chance" we will see Universal Heathcare under his plan.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/02/04/krugman-if-obama-is-president-theres-no-chance-for-universal-health-care/
Obama is not the agent of change for the Democratic Party. He never was. Hating on Hillary doesn't change that fact one bit.
Posted by jsparrow at March 16, 2008 05:54 PMMy wife is catholic. She gives money to the catholic church, and our daughter goes to catholic school. If anyone believes that she and the majority of catholics adhere to the pope's announcements, then they are delusional.
Ministers say things that many people don't say, or agree with. Everyone happens to know this-- except people who hate obama.
Posted by ltgesq at March 19, 2008 05:30 AM