"It is fashionable, in some circles, and on some dishonest blogs, to dehumanize and demonize the Clintons. Some of us remember how the right wing attack machine attempted to do that. Some of us remember how the corporate media attempted to do that...."

It also has the self-defeating effect of eroding the Democratic "brand" as portrayed by its only two-term president since FDR, the brand Obama himself hopes to run under.

That we're having this discussion at all, tells me the VRWC and compliant, conservative, corporate media did more than "attempt" to dehumanize and demonize the Clintons. They succeeded.

Good post, Turkana.

McOld would never place her the situation to decline an invite.

The states in play change with either candidate. I feel that Clinton would fare the best, though she looses, she looses close...274 to 264. Barry Obama's looses far worse, McOld will get over the 300 EV level easily. Thanks Democrats for deciding so well on who should lead us from here. I remembered last year being mocked, Dems had one person picked out while Reps. had five...no clear choice. Well now it's reversed. We have our leader...McOld. Your choice will made sometime after mid May at the soonest. Another six/seven weeks of primary hell to look forward to.

I find it rather funny that when Dems misspeak, it's called "embellishing", for Reps, it's a lie. Strange bedfellows...

I guess we're seeing the two Americas again...most of our vacations might be to the nearest state park or local beach. Barry Obama and family gets to visit the Virgin Islands. I guess it's still US territory and the heat of the election just got to them. Thanks 'RNN' for keeping tabs on their rest and relaxation. Things are just so tough for the Obama's, spending over $10k for piano lessons/sports camps for the kids. Yeah...Two Americas, he doesn't reside in mine or most of yours either for whats it worth.

I will never understand the hatred the Clintons generate among democrats. I guess rightwing talking points don't just work on republicans, but it's still depressing.

As for the popular vote, I posted this in Corrente's comments - a quick run down on how Clinton could re-take the popular vote lead. While far from guaranteed, I'd say she has a good chance to do it, depending on how it's calculated, which - unsurprisingly - the Obama campaign has worked to make confusing.

Let's say that Obama has a current popular vote lead of 526,392 votes, that's a very generous figure for Obama since while it includes Florida, it does not include Michigan and uses the Washington caucus results (from www.realclearpolitics.com). Now, using that figure let's look at the upcoming primaries for which we might be able to make some sort of guess or prediction of the outcome.* These of course could change, which is why we have elections:

Pennsylvania - if you assume 60% of its 4 million registered democrats show up to vote and Clinton wins 57-42 (see MyDD demographic analysis), then Clinton will gain 336,000 votes on Obama in Pennsylvania. If 65% of the voters turn out in Pennsylvania, Clinton would gain 364,000 votes. If she were to really crush Obama and win 60% (possible, but probably unlikely), with the 60% turnout model, she'd cut Obama's popular vote lead by 480,000 votes.

Indiana - there have been no recent polls in Indiana and given that it's wedged between Illinois and Ohio, it could probably go either way. But let's say it follows its demographics the same way Ohio did, using this analysis, Clinton would win by ~166,000 votes.

North Carolina - although the latest poll had Obama and Clinton nearly tied, let's go with the RCP average. Again, assuming 60% of North Carolina's 2.5 million democrats turn out to vote, Obama should win by about 5 or 6 points based on the Real Clear Politics average (although that average has both candidates in the 40s because it has a large number of undecided voters). We'll assume the undecideds break about even and give Obama a 53-47 win, which should pick him up an additional 95,000 votes.

West Virginia - the only recent poll has Hillary beating Obama by almost 30 points. Let's give her a 20 point win with 60% of West Virginia's approximately 1,000,000 voters, which should net her a gain of 120,000 votes.

If you presume these numbers, then Hillary would have a very slim popular vote lead of 608 votes. And things could go better for Hillary relatively easily, if 65% of Pennsylvanians vote and she wins 57-43, that would add 28,000 to her vote total. She could also win North Carolina. And then there's Michigan, where, according to The Green Papers, Hillary has a lead of more than 90,000 votes over uncommitted.

Things could, of course, go worse for Hillary than this, too. If Obama can suppress voter turnout in Pennsylvania or do better than expected there. If he can win Indiana. If he can continue to keep Florida and Michigan from counting, even in the popular vote, which is probably more difficult, especially for Florida, than it is to keep out delegates.

My point isn't that Hillary will definitely re-take the popular vote lead, but only that it's definitely possible for her to do so. Which, of course, is why she must quit because Obaam will probably never be in as strong a position to claim the nomination as he is now (interesting that he still hasn't claimed it). Now, arguably, he remains in the stronger position to claim it and so, if he ends up the nominee, Clinton's continued wins may weaken him. This line of reasoning, however, would lead one to conclude that should Clinton end up the nominee, given that she was the presumptive nominee six months ago, the entire Obama campaign (and Edwards and everyone else) was nothing more than an exercise in weakening her for the general election. Therefore, the entire nominating contest was a mistake. Note - I do not believe that, but that's where you get if you take voting as an act of weakening a candidate to its logical conclusion.

* While CW says that Hillary should win Kentucky and Obama should win Oregon, there is so little info about the remaining states that I'm not even going to try the wildass guess I did for the others. We're expecting a poll from SD later this week and that should hopefull tell us something there.

Barack Obama's apparently successful disenfranchisement of the voters of Florida and Michigan...

When will we get off that disingenuous shit Turkana?

The DNC rules state that Michigan and Florida don't count.

Snipers. Run from the snipers.

You're losing it, Turk. It's fucking over. Deal with it.

This is kinda creepy.

ram,

you're just balanced enough to be a popular diarist at daily kos. try it.

7o6,

blocking revotes is disenfranchising voters. and the dnc rules were changed, anyway.

More straw men and women from what has become DLC (Da Left Coaster)

We all need to play by the rules, the DNC and state rules. Both states violated DNC primary rules. Both states have been unable to muster compromises. I understand that Florida doesn't want to be embarrased again and they are unprepared.

Michigan has its own set of issues.
Mr. and Mrs. Clinton don't want a caucus.
Mr. Obama said 50/50 split: rejected by Clintons.

To say that Obama is "disenfranchising" people is disingenuous and you know it!

tfit,

if you read the links, you'll see that obama did, actually, do all he could to block revotes. you might not like the facts, but they are what they are. and i realize that some obama supporters find facts inconvenient, but the dnc changed its own rules about punishing states, and about what those punishments would be. and as for obama's michigan solutions- yes, he might agree to a caucus- which has lower turnout and favors him. how fair and balanced. or he wants a 50/50 delegate split. how respectful of the concept of the will of the voters. thank you for making my point.

coyote,

creepy, indeed. imagine the reaction if hillary did something like that...

UPDATE on the Commanders in Chief Clintons, aka "INCOMING, hand me a clip Chelsea..."

Remind any one else of the love child (if there could be one) of Al Haig and Walter Mitty?

MEDIA ASSERTIONS
eripostal (typical knee jerk reaction):
“I see Sen. Clinton☼'s recollection of her Bosnia trip has been challenged and she is now being painted as a liar on this”.

Sharyl Atkinson of CBS (who actually was there with Mrs. Clinton):
“…the mood upon first landing at the Tuzla airport was light. Children were there on the tarmac to greet the first lady, Chelsea was by her side, Bosnian dignitaries had gathered: It felt safe”.

RECENT HEADLINES
Clinton Acknowledges "Misstatement" on Bosnia
Sniper Fire, Indeed!
Bill Visited Tuzla Before Hillary

PUBLIC OPINION
Perceived Honesty Gap for Clinton Versus Obama, McCain (Gallup)

Since you have alternately called me 'tfit' and 'tfitzinc', I think I'll address you as 'turkey' from now on. Eripostal and turkey...

I'm less than impressed with your 'cherry picked' links. The bottom line:
(1) This is a high-stakes battle for the nomination, and (likely) the Presidency in Democratic hands for two terms. Too hot for you - "get out of the kitchen".
(2)Obama will do what he has to do. Ultimately, the resolution comes down to a process: DNC rules, stae legislature and/or party redress, and DNC subcomittee whereby Hillbilly has more votes.
(3) Super delegates will not overrule delegates.
Hill loses.

Since you have alternately called me 'tfit' and 'tfitzinc', I think I'll address you as 'turkey' from now on. Eripostal and turkey...

I'm less than impressed with your 'cherry picked' links. The bottom line:
(1) As you well know, we are in the midst of a high-stakes battle for the nomination, and (likely) the Presidency in Democratic hands for two terms. Too hot for you - "get out of the kitchen".
(2)Obama will do what he has to do. Ultimately, the resolution comes down to a process: DNC rules, state legislature and/or party redress, and DNC subcomittee (whereby Hillbilly has more votes).
(3) Super delegates will not overrule delegates and popular vote.
(4) Your gal loses.

thanks for again making my point, tfitz:

1) obama will do whatever he has to do- hillary is demonized for the same.

2) the superdelegates will, indeed, overrule the pledged delegates, if hillary catches or surpasses in the popular vote, and they see a major shift in momentum. and they can do that, if they so choose.

I have been reading and been a participant on kos almost since it's inception, certainly for a far greater time than 99% of the current Hillary haters on that site. It is astonishing to me what has happened there. A long time great democratic couple being essetially destroyed. I can't peruse the site anymor.

How reasonable of you turkana. We don't always disagree. I have been enjoying the posts of you and Steve for years.

Lay off the disenfranchisement crap will you?
It isn't honest, it stinks, and it doesn't wash off easily.

I come here to learn and to commune with kindred spirits, not to listen to Penn's regurgitated talking points or help you to wring out your crying towel.

It is just amazing to me what spews from the Clinton backers. What would be the rhetoric if the situation was reversed. FLA AND MI BROKE THE RULES!! THEY DO NOT GET TO SIT DELEGATES. The best solution is to split the baby. Neither candidate gets an edge, the delegates are seated and there is not chaos in the next primary when states all decide they want to be first and have seen there are no ramifications for breaking the rules. face it, it is over. No old school back office deals, no changing the rules to make things work for one side or the other. The superdelegates will NEVER go against the elected delegate totals for fear of losing all the new voters Obama has brought on. if they did it would be a devastating loss by not only Crazy McCain will be in office but all the way down the ticket dems will lose. Not to mention the riots! It is time for Biden, Edwards and Gore to put a stop to this. Have some guts and back Obama for the good of the party. With a 52% negative HRC can never win a general.

ram,

you're just balanced enough to be a popular diarist at daily kos. try it.

7o6,

blocking revotes is disenfranchising voters. and the dnc rules were changed, anyway.
Posted by Turkana at March 25, 2008 10:43 AM

^^^

I was an Edwards supporter. I'm a big fan of reality. Ergo, I'm compelled to call out Clinton, and you by extension, on your incessant bullshit.

The DNC disenfranchised FL and MI. Those state deliberately broke party rules and paid the preapproved punishment. No issue there. They chose their fate.

But here's the bottom line. Hillary was the prohibitive frontrunner. She lost. She lost 11 straight primaries/caucuses by a minimum of 17 points. She is mathematically fucked in the delegate count. She deliberately lied about Bosnia. She has defamed Obama repeatedly, and she has become a farce.

She's done. But she's power-hungry, she's calculating, and she cannot fucking believe she lost this thing, so she's gonna make us pay.

Trust me, the favor will be returned in kind. She will fucking pay for what she is doing.

Viva John Edwards!

ram,

you're just balanced enough to be a popular diarist at daily kos. try it.

7o6,

blocking revotes is disenfranchising voters. and the dnc rules were changed, anyway.
Posted by Turkana at March 25, 2008 10:43 AM

^^^

I was an Edwards supporter. I'm a big fan of reality. Ergo, I'm compelled to call out Clinton, and you by extension, on your incessant bullshit.

The DNC disenfranchised FL and MI. Those state deliberately broke party rules and paid the preapproved punishment. No issue there. They chose their fate.

But here's the bottom line. Hillary was the prohibitive frontrunner. She lost. She lost 11 straight primaries/caucuses by a minimum of 17 points. She is mathematically fucked in the delegate count. She deliberately lied about Bosnia. She has defamed Obama repeatedly, and she has become a farce.

She's done. But she's power-hungry, she's calculating, and she cannot fucking believe she lost this thing, so she's gonna make us pay.

Trust me, the favor will be returned in kind. She will fucking pay for what she is doing.

Viva John Edwards!

Oh and Peety?

Calling Barak Obama Berry doesn't do much but make you look like a 10 year old tool.

So he went on a vacation and this is a problem how? Grow up

Eric in Austin

tfitz,

what you don't understand is that i don't really care who wins. the only reason i might prefer clinton is for the joy of watching obamabots implode. the sensible obama supporters will come around, but the rest, not so much.

and as for everyone who keeps screaming about fl and mi breaking the rules: learn your facts. the rules originally said they were to be docked half their delegates, not all of them. the dnc changed the rules. beyond that, though, while the states and the dnc tried to work out deals for revotes, and clinton was on board, obama blocked it. if disenfranchising voters is cool with you, fine. i get it. and you'll be very pleased with what that leads to, next year.

Fuck it, you're hopeless Turkana. Obama didn't block it. FL blocked their own revote. Hillary tried to buy one in MI. Not surprisingly, there weren't many takers.

Game's over.

Just curious about the popular vote. How many people who voted for Obama in the early primaries and caucuses now wish they could change their vote? I am guessing way more than the other way around.

Austin Eric, I wrote Barry, his name until attending Harvard, he had to upgrade his name to fit the institution. Anyhow, I believe it's spelled Barack...if you want to be that correct that is.

tfitznc, you came here to "commune with kindred spirits"?? And you post this?
UPDATE on the Commanders in Chief Clintons, aka "INCOMING, hand me a clip Chelsea..."

Remind any one else of the love child (if there could be one) of Al Haig and Walter Mitty?

Not everybody in the Dems is an Obama fanboy. Sorry. But, if it makes you feel at home: "CHANGE!" "Inspirational!"

Let's not forget "HOPE".

Niall O'Dowd, member of Clinton Finance Committee starts fanning the Rev.Wright/Racist fires again. Can a week go by with the Clinton campaign turning to this kind of attack (answer: probably not).

pennsylvania...the great melting pot..political campaigns are continuing snapshots of what is really is going on at any given time..hillary will crush barack obama in pa..and super delagates will be well aware of what was allowed to happen in mi and fl..with those revoted..she will have had the popular vote..super delagates will go with who they tink can beat mccain ..and at this point it's pretty apparent it ain't baracky....reverend wright made sure of that..and did obamas esteemed judgement...that plus..you know ....being against the war and all...even though he voted the same as hillary..once he was elected

couch it in the lexicon..any way you wish..or a rose by any other name..but hillary won in mi and fl..and if they revote..she'd win by even a much larger margin...come on boys and girls..thats gotta count for something...forget the rules..those people are being disenfranchised..that is a fact..baracky has not won one major electoral state..the man will not beat john mccain..

Wow. This is RIGHT ON.

My husband and I are flummoxed by the Hillary hatred currently poisoning the so-called "left" blogosphere. We simply cannot understand it.

My theories are that the haters are:

1) too young to remember the Clinton years the way they actually were; and/or
2) unaware of the actual "vast right-wing conspiracy" (David Brock's book "Blinded By the Right" was a real eye-opener for me) to smear and destroy the Clintons; and/or
3) bamboozled by the smears of the Obama campaign (did you know Bill is like Joe McCarthy now? and of course they're both racists); and/or
4) jealous because they didn't get to sleep with Bill (Tweety, Arianna, MoDo...).

I don't get it otherwise. What the hell has happened to the sites I used to love? Aren't we all supposed to be on the same side here?

:-(

Niall O'Dowd, member of Clinton Finance Committee starts fanning the Rev.Wright/Racist fires again.

BURN HIM!!!....uh....I mean....FIRE HIM!

Fire anyone who says something anyone doesn't like!

It's the only way!

madamab, I loved the Clinton years....especially the two days when the market fell 700 points each day and I lost all of my god damned money. The Vast Right Wing conspiracy is alive and well, but it exists to ruin ANY democrat, not just the Clintons. Speaking of the Clinton's, Hillary is just lucky to be alive, given the brutal machine-gun fire she escaped in Bosnia. Chelsea too.

couldn't be that the good reverend and barack himself fanned those flames..could it ...nah!!..i love the argument of the obabamites that counting those votes in fl and mi..would be breaking the rules..poor babies..seems to me there was a stoppage of vote counting in fl..not to long ago...by someone who called himself a uniter..anyone remember that?

t2...i've heard the clintons get blamed for a lot of things..i didn't realize they had lost all your money too...wow..

well, dennis, I didn't mean to single them out. Nixon lost a bunch for me, Reagan did, and Bush did about a month ago. But now that we are on the economy instead of whining about people not loving Hillary, here's a quote from her good buddy John McOld:
McCain: Let’s start with some straight talk: I will not play election year politics with the housing crisis. I will evaluate everything in terms of whether it might be harmful or helpful to our effort to deal with the crisis we face now….
To translate: I know nothing about economic policy. And until somebody tells me how to use the Crisis to make more money for Big Corporations, I won't do anything.

BURN HIM!!!....uh....I mean....FIRE HIM!

He's a witch! Turned me into a newt! And said mean things to me!

Turkana,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for fighting the good fight. I honestly don't how you stomach parrying with these adolescents and their foul-mouthed crazy distortions and outright lies.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

yes
thank you

Huckabee defends Wright but Hillary criticizes him? She just lost any chance of winning the GE. I pretty sure that McCain has the bigot vote already tied down.

Jesus, T2, if you didn't make money in the market during the Clinton years, you must be the worst investor ever. Was George W Bush your financial advisor or what?

i want to pose a question here, to qualify it, i want to point out a discrepancy, or slight if you will...

how is it that all i've seen, and the news cycle here is LIMITED, are white pundits calling out rev wright's comments as hateful, racist, and/ or anti-semitic? truly. how is it that it is now being revisited after a week of silence by the hilary campaign? the quote we got over here (i paraphrase) is 'he wouldn't be my pastor." are you saying that 30+ years of public service and apparantly intensive community involvment is erased for boneheaded statements?

how is it that a man who called for christians to forgive those who "bash baby's heads against the wall," quoting a bible verse, is demonized for admittedly stupid comments. from what i've seen on you tube, his sermons notwithstanding the fubars, call for self-responsibility, loving you neighbor and living like a christian. also, we hear none of the white congregants complaining of feeling unwelcome, nor do they think the pastor is racist, anti-semitic, etc. i bring this up in response to a previous post.

to echo judith, i too am tired and weary of this bickering and wish it was over to focus on mc cain, someone who "gaffes," daily. so much so that dan abrams, called the media on it. this rev wright thing won't go away, but hagee and co. continue to get a pass for saying and advocating much worse? just a question...

moon, try reading if you can. I said I lost money when the bottom fell out of the market in Spring 2000. Like everyone did. Certainly, to lose it I'd have had to make it earlier, like everyone did. Viva Cisco Systems.

anthony

the question you pose is difficult..my answer would be that in the context of his life and family his 30 yrs of service are admirable..in the context of a black man who sat in his congregation for twenty years and is now running for president..wrights sermons and tapes will be used and distorted beyond their actual intent..to defeat obama..that is life

...and I lost all of my god damned money.

Just a bit of hyperbole then?

Sorta like invoking the name of a known racist for rhetorical affect?

Hate to say it, T2, but the 2000 tech bubble was so obvious, even I could see it was going to go down in flames. Shoulda gotten out before 2000, man - all the signs were there, vast amounts of money, yet no product? Just information? No way it was going to last.

Sorta like invoking the name of a known racist for rhetorical affect?

Who, Barack Obama?

Who, Barack Obama?

Barack Obama's a racist?

Barack Obama's a racist?

Misogynist!

barack obama?? no way..but.. maybe you should ask his grandmother..you know the typical white one

yeah, I'm the only one that didn't see it coming. What an idiot. Same for last January..who could have known the sub-prime scam could possibly affect the entire market.
And no, snark and coyote, I'm not taking your race baiting today, I'm too busy dodging machine-gun fire here in my office.

Misogynist!

GAWD DAMN AMERICA!!

dennis, your last statement saddens me, as it shows we are unwilling to move beyond the "great sin." and racism/ sexism will always be a part of our body politic.

that's just it. a black man at a black church... sunday is the most segregated day in america. but we supposedly are a christian nation, but cannot or will not attempt to understand how we worship differently. over the pond, my church is mixed. however, my home church is predominantly black. my pastor preaches fire and brimstone, but his overall message is self reliance, live holy, repent, and forgive. i dont' agree with some of what he says, but i won't leave his church. it's my home... obama's speech challenged us to move forward, yet we forget he is half white. the 1/13th rule continues to hold true...

i am an obama supporter, though first and foremost i am a dem. i will glady vote for our nominee.

i am tired of the flack he is getting here for the wright incidents. lest we forget that this same guy (wright), stood by and prayed for the clintons during that whole mess? im not talking about the photo op, but he truly supported them.

20 year history. 20 years. it was his home, get over it. do not forget that the head of the u.c.c. is white, and he unequivicably supports wright... its easy to point and say look at him, he said bad things. but the point is that particular sermon, per eugene robinson was 6 yrs ago. go beyond the sound bites, and hear the message. unfortunately, one either cannot/ will not, as that is inconvenient. what hagee and others said was much more recent, much more hateful, and exponentially more unGodlike, however, is it because they are white, that they get the pass that rev. wright seems to fall short of??? again, just questions from this side of the pond...

And no, snark and coyote, I'm not taking your race baiting today...

You're the one who chimed in with the comment about Niall O'Dowd "fanning the race flames" T2. All I did was point out that your "Bill Clinton made me lose all my money" comment was no different than O'Dowd using David Duke's name in a hypothetical with Clinton playing the Obama role. It's hyperbole. Intended for effect. You like to make snippy comments about Clinton and don't like it when people throw it back at you.

anthony...yes i fear that racism/sexism will always be part of our body politic..my sincere hope, however, is that it will not be...we are not debating the hope of man here..or the dream of a utopia..we are talking about presidential politics..by men so ruthless it's beyond comprehension... it has nothing to do with me getting over anything..i was not offended by reverend wright..and i do not pretend to know what it's like to be black..i judge people by the content of their character thats all i know...the republican attack machine was handed a gift by reverend wright...make no mistake about that..because if you do you are a fool..regardless of color

yeah, I'm the only one that didn't see it coming.

Nope, a lot of people didn't. They were riding high on the numbers, until they dropped. I was on the outside looking in, and didn't even know what a bubble was. Made it easier to see the forest, and the big fire waiting to burn it down.

CNN today on Cinton making statements about her trip to Bosnia:

Clinton told the paper's editorial board it was a "minor blip." "I say a lot of things -- millions of words a day -- so if I misspoke, that was just a misstatement," she said.

However, if it was Obama... 'Heavens to Murgatroyd'!

this same guy (wright), stood by and prayed for the clintons during that whole mess? im not talking about the photo op, but he truly supported them.

yeah, and then he got up in front of his congregation and made fun of how old Bill was ridin' dirty on Monica, just like he was ridin' dirty on African Americans . . . and he was humping his lectern while he did it.

sorry, but that right there is both disgusting and hypocritical -- and as a churchgoer i'm here to tell you that it makes me cringe every time i think of it.

hrc had it right today: he wouldn't have been my pastor.

So, T2, you made a ton of money during the Clinton years, but lost a little in 2000, so the Clinton era was just crap economically???

Yeah. OK.

You Obama-ites will distort anything, huh?

More distortion from Obama. This may be a re-post, but the Obama-ites may not have seen it.
Posted by Moon at March 25, 2008 05:56 PM

Well, why didn't that work? Try again!
Obama lies???

EEEEwww, that "humping the lecturn" service was for Christmas. Lots different from the candle-lighting Masses where I used to go.

if you are a superdelegate to the democratic convention in 2008, hoping no one insists that you make a decision on the democratic presidential candidate,

you can try this one on for size.

oh, i forgot to set the context

by mentioning the relevant gerund - swiftboating.

ok, so here we go with a sketch.

who is antoin rezko?

a chicago businessman, a pizza parlor(s) owner, and a patron of obama.

why obama?

why would a guy with a czech/polish-sounding name provide strong financial support to a guy named barach obama?

you don't care?

neither do i.

but then i learned that antoin rezko is syrian by birth.

obama has a syrian pal?

so what's the big deal?

well, make of it what you think a republican swiftboat crew might make of it in, say, october, 2008.

but there's more it seems.

yet more material for a good swiftboating run up the river of deceit.

rezko has a patron himself, a patron-businesman whom rezko confiders a friend and who media reports claim lent rezko money.

rezko's "friend's" name: Nadhmi Auchi.

a genuinely pretty-sounding name to my ear.

and what might mr. auchi's national heritage be?

how would i know.

but other folks who have looked into this say that Nadhmi Auchi was born an iraqi.

an iraqi, you exclaim?

that's what they say.

so

suppose you are john mccain, the bob dole of 2008, not doing well in the polls.

need to put a hit on this guy barack obama who most american's seem to like.

what to do?

oh, just have some operative several times removed from your campaign concoct a set of swiftboating charges that barack hussein obama is some sort of manchurian candidate for a malign syrian-iraqi plot.

plausible?

not in the least.

effective?

wait until it happens to judge.

Has the Left Coaster become the Central Coaster?? Sorry, but 8 years of the Clintons is enough. We do not need another 4 years of Billary, no more than we would need any more years of anyone remotely connected to the national embarrassment that's currently in office.

Listen to the reichwing guru! No more Billary! Just like RUSH says!

It would be so awful to have another Clinton to come in and clean up after another Bush. Let's get Barry O in --- he says he'd appoint Bush Sr. to his cabinet...how wonderful!

F all you thugs.

You'd think that Bill Clinton's presidency was a total disaster, worst thing that ever happened, unending war causing death and mayhem in Bosnia and Haiti and Ireland and Palestine; actual corruption scandal after scandal involving actual corruption, not 2 Super Bowl Tickets and a Blow Job.

Oh wait, that's Bush's legacy. Clinton arrested the WTC bombers and put them in jail. Not personally of course. And he caught the Oklahoma City Bombers, and helped broker Peace Treaties that actual stopped the death and mayhem (yes, even in Palestine, until some stupid fucking idiot shot Rabin and Arafat got scared) and left us with a surplus of sorts in our current accounts, and broke Newt Gingrich and lots of other things that we would consider a plus, like trying to change the military stance on gays, and actually even if you don't like DADT, its the kind of incrementalism that will break down that barrier.

Well, I could go on, but it justs seems funny, in a non-comedic way, how Bill Clinton is getting turned into this horrible, evil monster by the anti Hillary Clinton forces, no matter what he did as President, after 12 years of Reagan/Bush.

I don't much like either candidate, but I don't care. Neither one is all that great, to my mind, but I don't care. The Republicans need to leave the White House, and frankly, I don't care who replaces them, Clinton or Obama, because both of these candidates are going to change everything they're offering today once they actually get into the Oval Office.

Because the nightmarish pile of disasters, all related yet unrelated, are going to transcend all this BULLSHIT that has been going on in the campaign. Iraq, the Environment, The Economy, each by itself is almost impossible to solve in 4 years, whoever wins has to deal with all 3, opposed by the GOP and the Corporations every step of the way, which makes the petty bickering going on right now seem pretty insignificant to me. Who cares what Carville says or what Wright says, or what somebody says about Carville or Wright?

Does any of that make a house payment, or get your bank CD to pay a decent interest rate, or get a decent emergency room in your rural neighborhood?

Didn't think so.

Thanks, Turkana. Great post.

My sense is that the Obama surrogates are starting to perceive that it may not be on for November, and are getting their arguments ready for the Democratic Party civil war that will be coming in the event of his loss. We will be informed that it was the pig-headed insistence of Clinton supporters in continuing the campaign beyond April that fatally weakened Obama.

Yeah, the desire to brand the Clintons, the only Democrats to actually make it into the White House in the past 28 years, as being responsible for tearing down the party is pretty incredible.

the obama camp has used the republican talking points from day one...lets not go back to the clinton years..we'll abide by whatver the dnc decides..but in the neantime let's run out the clock..lest we have to count all the vote..quite the uniter that guy...very slippery folks these obama people..

madamab writes:

"My theories are that the haters are:

"1) too young to remember the Clinton years the way they actually were; and/or
2) unaware of the actual "vast right-wing conspiracy" (David Brock's book "Blinded By the Right" was a real eye-opener for me) to smear and destroy the Clintons; and/or
3) bamboozled by the smears of the Obama campaign (did you know Bill is like Joe McCarthy now? and of course they're both racists); and/or
4) jealous because they didn't get to sleep with Bill (Tweety, Arianna, MoDo...)."

1. Bill and Hillary Clinton pushed NAFTA, GATT and other trade deals which destroyed blue collar America. I am old enough to remember. I was writing editorials about it in my union paper back then. The recent release of her papers shows that Hillary was in fact pushing NAFTA. Either she was lying for her husband when she pushed NAFTA or is lying now. Your choice.

2. Go read TPM this morning. There's a lovely picture of Hillary talking to Scaife yesterday while she was talking about someone else's religion. Scaife, if YOU recall, was the financial backing and animus behind that "vast right-wing conspiracy." Ten year on she is either using that VRWC or has become part of it. Your choice.

3. I am not bamboozled. There is a reason why the Clintons keep talking about patriotism and preparedness while excluding Obama. It's a ploy, a political sleight of hands. If you don't understand the implication then all subtlety is lost on you.

4. "Jealous because they didn't get to sleep with Bill?" Are you really that stupid? Those political commentators are no more a part of my life than Taylor Marsh is a part of yours. People make political judgements. I question people's judgements, god, look at the last seven years. But to write off over half of the Democratic Party as dissaffected from Hillary because they didn't get to have sex with Bill is kind of bizarre. Perhaps the next conversation you and your husband have should be with a counselor.

at this point tpm and anything having to do with hillary..is suspect to say the very least...but beyond that there isn't a single damn thing in that article beyond conjecture..nothing..and to sggest other wise is a flat out fucking lie...why don't we just count everybody's votes and see who the winner is...i know why...

Bob In Pacifica, your #2 was my tipping point this AM, until about an hour ago I've been saying "I support the Democrat". Seeing Senator Clinton dissing Senator Obama to Scaife, of all people, is just too much. WTF, indeed. Worse, I'm a Hillary alternate and the county convention is this weekend...

darms,

she was appearing before a newspaper board. she was asked a question. josh's biased spin should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

...a huge grain of salt.

More like a whole salt lick.

and frankly..wright wouldn't have been my pastor..or a lot of other peoples i imagine...regardless of color...i know hillary is part of a cult in dc...a secret society don't you know

Turkana, it's Sciafe, of all people. Shades of 'maverick' McCain hugging Bush in 2004, too freakin' much. However, I'm pledged to vote for Senator Clinton and come November, I'll still vote for the democrat.

She should have punched the mf, not dissed Obama over a non-issue. Damn...

she prays with evil people...maybe even once a week...

Thank you Dennis, and others. Josh and TPM have lost all credibility in term of any potential objectivity - his reputation is toast, especially any potential reputation as a 'media critic'. He goes right along with the media in their complete inability to critique Obama on anything.

I'm not against Obama, and I'll vote for him if he's the nominee. But I'll be damned if I'll go along with all those trying to get him the nomination by distorting every frigging thing Clinton says or does or demanding that she drop out. I'm a big fan of truth and fairness personally. Why doesn't Obama just earn the nomination and why doesn't everyone stop trying to make his competitor go away? This IS a competition after all.

The hard right has been linking the Clinton and Bush years for a long time, and now the Obama-ites have taken up the NeoCon cry "32 years of Clinton and Bush is too much".

Judging from the attacks from the Obama-ites, they are getting their tactics directly from Rush Limbaugh and grisly gang of goons.

If it wasn't for Monica Lewinski, Bill Clinton may have gone down in history as one of the greatest Presidents ever. But now, all he'll be remembered for is a blow job.

Moon:

Yes, and don't forget - Bill Clinton will now also go down in history as being a racist because the Obama campaign says he is. Despite all the things he has done for the AA community, he is now a racist. Nice.

Just remember, folks. Despite everything that Hillary said, Scaife is just a newspaper publisher.

This is what H. Clinton said ten years ago:

"For anybody willing to find it, and write about it, and explain it, is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for President. A few journalists have kind of caught on to it and explained it, but it has not yet been fully revealed to the American public. And actually, you know, in a bizarre sort of way, this may do it." -- Hillary Clinton on NBC's Today, Jan 27, 1998

Maybe she misremembered what she said. Or she's just comfortable with it now. Your choice.

or maybe, bob, candidates do interviews with the editorial boards of major newspapers. they don't get to pick who owns the papers, or who sits on their editorial boards.

Nobody I know is arguing that Hillary doesn't have "the right" to continue her run. What most are saying is that given the very low odds of her winning the nomination, and the unnecessary harm she is doing to our likely nominee, her supporters might want to reconsider their support.

Also, just wondering, when you say "Hillary Clinton cares about what's best for the Party and the country" do you include her most recent statement that all delegates - not just superdelegates - are free to change their votes? Because it's hard for me to see how someone like yourself - constantly whining about the "disenfranchisement" of WI and FL voters - could believe that disenfranchising every single voter in every single Democratic primary state could possibly be good for either Party or country.

Guess I'll have to trust you on that one. And Hillary too, right? And why not? After all, Hillary never lies, does she? Now, excuse me while I dodge incoming sniper fire while I run across the tarmac...

balthus, as it becomes more and more clear that Obama can't beat McCain, wouldn't it be wise to let the delegates vote for the best candidate?

That's why we have delegates. And it's not like Obama is running away with the nomination. It's the closest in my lifetime, and I go back to Eisenhower and Stevenson.

nice post as usu turkana. what i always find interesting while people are saying that hrc is 'destroying the party' is how little people pay attention. she and her husband have always said that she and her supporters would support bo, he and his wife have said the opposite about her. how is that the message of someone who wants to unite the party?

at the beginning of this process, i was neutral about obama, but i'm not just a democratic voter, i'm someone who grew up with family friends who've held public office throughout my life. i see through all politicians and their rhetoric whether i like them or not. i had issues early on with obama's responses during debates (bc he gave some 'red flag' statements on foreign policy questions), but not with him or his campaign. but then i started actually WATCHING his campaign speeches. he consistently talked about the clinton presidency as if it was insignificant, and consistently PERSONALLY ATTACKED hillary clinton. i've watched him do this since OCTOBER. the msm USED TO NOTICE when hrc was the frontrunner, and even talked about her 'not fighting back.'

but the more enamored the msm became of obama, the more acceptable the attacks on her became. suddenly, the hrc that has been the well liked and well respected senator from ny suddenly was reduced to the 'polarizing' figure of the 90s (ofc most people don't realize that the reason why the INITIAL polarizing label was attached to her was that she was a first lady who didn't 'stay in her place.' she actually wanted to do more besides the 'ceremonial' and 'women's topics' that was acceptable for first ladies before her)

when she started fighting back, she was 'attacking' him. if he attacked her, somehow it was legitimate. the media have consistently ignored the skeletons in his closet. i've heard commentators consistently joke that those skeletons that they CHOOSE not to really discuss will be an issue in the general election. so how does it help obama NOT to discuss them now and get it over with? bc in the end THEY DON'T CARE. they're just looking forward to the story.

Hey six of seven

Have you even read the rules? I have and Obama has broken many of them. If you go by the rules Obama shouldn't get a delegate from either of these states.

To seaMBA

A recent poll suggests that 29 percent of Obama supporters would vote for Clinton if they could get there vote back. That needs to go to the superdelegates.

I thought these Obama people were at Kos? Why are they starting things here?

Obama has lied to you all from the beginning of this race. He lied about his position on the war. He lied about Rezko. He lied about not having that meeting with the Canadians about NAFTA. He lied about his pastor. He is lying about healthcare. Did any of you Obama supporters know that the Chicago hospital that his wife is one of the VP'S of makes over 316,000 dollars a year. Of course she got a big boost of 195,000 from Barack after he got into the senate. 195,000 raise. Last year this NON FOR PROFIT hospital netted over 100 million dollars. They are on track to break that record this year. They charge people without insurance three and a half times what the same care would cost somebody with coverage. They have spent over 10 million dollars collecting those fees from people who can't afford to pay it. As for Rezco he waited until the Friday that Wright was all over the news to go to the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun Times and give them the interveiws that they have been asking for for months. He admited that he and Rezco were much closer that first talked about. Rezco did donate MUCH more money to his campaign than Obama admited at first, and the realestate deal on his house was as CROOKED as everyone had suppected it was. Yet all of that got buried because the media was actually talking about another future lie of Obamas. Rev. Wright!!! First Obama says hes not aware of Wrights comments. Then four days later in his speech he admits he lied again. He was farmiliar with Wrights preaching style. Then he turns what was to be an explanation into a civil rights speech and the media is still slobbering over it today.

MI and FL is another story. I have read the DNC rules and he has broken many of them. If we go by the rules he shouldn't get a delegate from either state. Urging voters in MI to vote uncommited against her is considered campaigning before the primary. Holding a news confence after a fundraiser in Tampa FL was also against the rules. Not the fundraiser mind you but the news confrence after. When Obamas staff that was with him that day in Tampa was questioned about the news confrence they basically said "OOPS" He took his name off the ballot in MI on his own. Nothing in the rules said he had to. This was a strategic move to sway big wigs in the democratic party of Iowa because they hadn't caucused there yet. They feared MI coverage was going to offset there role as the first taste of the primaries.

Obama even quotes in his book "i will stand with the muslium people if it came to that" How much more to you people need?

Seven of Six

If it had been Obama who made that mistake the media would cover his ass for him. He wouldn't have to say a word.

They did a great job of turning his civil rights speech that was originally supposed to be an explanation of his relationship with Wright into an elequant speech that replaced Malcolm x!!!!!

I though Obama was running for president? Not fighting for civil rights. Or is that what he plans to do AS president?

Here's a semi-complete list of falsehoods about Hillary:

Here

ldog70: "...Did any of you Obama supporters know that the Chicago hospital that his wife is one of the VP'S of makes over 316,000 dollars a year...."

STILL waiting on Hillary's tax returns being released

Gay veteran,
you don't seem to have a point. although the obama supporters have been blasting clinton for not releasing hers while FALSELY claiming that obama had already released ALL of his (since he just released them, that was obviously a LIE by those who didn't research the issue). she's already said when she was going to release them. if she doesn't do what she says, then you can ask the question, otherwise, YOU DON'T HAVE A POINT.