This post sounds very Swiftian and "A Modest Proposal"-y. Gotta love the snark!
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 06:50 AMOn a semi-serious note, though, wasn't the Clinton camp guilty of a similar sin earlier in the process when you'd hear quotes from that troll Penn and some others to the effect that states Obama won didn't really count? I don't like the 48-state strategy and its dissing of small-d democracy, but I didn't like the "Obama wins states that don't count" meme either. Just saying :)
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 06:54 AMIf the Democratic voters of FL and MI had voted for the rule changes than I would agree that they should stick by them. However, since the voters didn't have a say in the "rules" that govern them then I say: how screwed up is that?
Democratic Party voters shouldn't be punished for Democratic party insiders incompetence.
scottreads,
Ever hear of "swing states"? Or "battleground states"? The electoral college system and the conservative/liberal, middle/coastal state voting patterns in this country have always resulted in such discrimination. The blue/red dicotomy has certainly been promoted more heavily recently but the understanding that certain states are simply out of the reach of one candidate or the other is not a novel idea. You may not like it, but Hillary Clinton and her campaign did not dream it up out of thin air.
Posted by snark at April 2, 2008 07:10 AMAnd the beat goes on. I guess Obama's supporters don't have a monopoly on sneering condescension, after all.
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 07:13 AMGee, snark, way to sneeringly condescend to people. And you forgot to say "Hillary is Satan" when you mentioned her. I'm guessing you were being sarcastic when you voted in favor of open threads, too.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 07:35 AMfor the obama clowns..check into latest polling numbers in ohio and pennsylvania..as it relates to hillary gainst mccain..as opposed to obama vs mccain..it may give you people some sense of reality where things would stand in the general election..not that any of you give a shit
Posted by dennis at April 2, 2008 07:36 AMGeez, guys. I was just trying to make the point that neither campaign has been simon-pure when it comes to making statements or doing things that could be perceived as diminishing the importance of people's votes. I didn't think that was an incendiary kind of statement to make.
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 07:43 AMI guess Obama's supporters don't have a monopoly on sneering condescension, after all.
Are you for real? You call Penn a "troll" and when someone responds to your comment you get your panties in a bunch over some perceived "sneering condescension"?
So sorry. I should have just accepted your comment as received wisdom. My bad.
Posted by snark at April 2, 2008 07:44 AMI didn't think that was an incendiary kind of statement to make.
That part wasn't. The "sneering condescension" was.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 07:58 AM...neither campaign has been simon-pure when it comes to making statements or doing things that could be perceived as diminishing the importance of people's votes.
Our entire system is set up to diminish the importance of people's votes. But using it as a proganda tool against your opponent is just to easy.
I didn't think that was an incendiary kind of statement to make.
And I didn't think my response was "sneeringly condescending".
Fact of the matter is this whole problem is a direct result of Iowa and New Hampshire not wanting anyone to trample on their sacred positions in the pecking order. Talk about a full frontal view of how some states matter and others don't!
Posted by snark at April 2, 2008 08:01 AM"for the obama clowns..check into latest polling numbers in ohio and pennsylvania."
Or we could check out the Rasmussen poll of a couple days ago, showing Obama running stronger than Hillary in Wa.,Ore.,Wi.,NJ and Mich.
Posted by Upton at April 2, 2008 08:02 AMfrom ameriblog via huff post:
My mom was a delegate in Dallas this past weekend. She arrived at 7AM and didn't get to leave until 8PM. She said that it appeared the Clinton delegates were trying to drag things out so long that people would have to leave. She thought they challenged about 3,000 delegates and each of them had to go through the credentialing committee.
One of the Clinton delegates from her group challenged the validity of entire precincts. One of the precincts she challenged was almost entirely African American. Towards the end, after this group was credentialed they came by and shook their fists at the Clinton delegate and chanted "we're still here" in her face. My mom said it was a little tense.
She also said that it was sad to see all of the elderly there having to sit in stadium seats for 13 hours. She didn't know of anyone leaving without an alternate to replace them though. A very pregnant woman in her group had to lie on the concrete floor at times.
here's the entire link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/clinton-and-credentials-_b_94466.html
2 precincts? one of which predominantly african american? way to endear yourself to an electorate...
dirty tricks abound. have a re-vote in fl and mi, without private money and included everyone. hilary wants it as is. so much for democracy.
Posted by anthony at April 2, 2008 08:15 AMSnark:
When someone asks me "Ever hear of 'swing states?' Or 'battleground states?,'" yeah, I oddly enough interpret that as condescending to me as some kinda moron. Re the troll remark, I didn't mean to offend anyone; I've been on pro-Hillary sites where lots of people like Taylor Marsh have trashed him as a hack. Heck, Hillary's own campaign pretty much hates him. If I offended y'all with that or hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 08:29 AMWhen someone asks me "Ever hear of 'swing states?' Or 'battleground states?,'" yeah, I oddly enough interpret that as condescending to me as some kinda moron.
Well, that's an issue you can take up with your therapist. When someone asks me a question I usually just try and answer it. But that's just me. Point is, the idea that some states are more important in electoral politics is not a concept authored by the Clinton campaign. You feel they somehow 'sinned' by acknowledging it. I do not.
Re the troll remark, I didn't mean to offend anyone; I've been on pro-Hillary sites where lots of people like Taylor Marsh have trashed him as a hack. Heck, Hillary's own campaign pretty much hates him. If I offended y'all with that or hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
You didn't hurt my feelings. On the contrary, the only one complaining about hurt feelings is you. Better get a thicker skin if you're gonna call people names. Why is it so hard for people to understand that name calling just debases their argument?
Posted by snark at April 2, 2008 08:52 AMTouchy, touchy. Apparently an apology isn't good enough, and then I'm told to toughen up and take it up with my therapist. Oh well, I tried. Have a happy!
Posted by scottreads at April 2, 2008 09:04 AMgiven the latest polls showing significant slippage for Clinton in PA, she needs to worry about that state instead of two states who's votes have been deleted due to breaking rules all the candidates agreed on in advance. That is such a losers ploy.
Posted by T2 at April 2, 2008 09:09 AMShe thought they challenged about 3,000 delegates and each of them had to go through the credentialing committee.
Sounds like something she learned from Obama.
One of the precincts she challenged was almost entirely African American.
Hmm. Which would have been more dirty, challenging them like all the others had been challenged, or not challenging them at all just because they were black?
In any case, from the sounds of it, the Texas process is pretty hinky; I don't trust the numbers from the caucuses, just because it sounds like there wasn't oversight or organization in some areas, so I have no problem trying to verify that everything was on the up and up. As for the older people and the preggie lady, I'm sorry they were uncomfortable, but they knew what they were in for when they signed up. Are you saying that democracy's only legitimate if it's quick, easy and comfortable for all concerned? Or are you just wanting to spread it around that Hillary's racist, and also hates old people and pregnant women? As for Obama people shaking their fists in people's faces, sounds like the agressive ones weren't the Clinton delegates...
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 09:15 AMDemocratic Party voters shouldn't be punished for Democratic party insiders incompetence.
People, MI and FL were part of the Republi-con party agenda to intentionally screw the Democratic party. Blame Obama, point to Hillary, pass it off on Dean and now finger Pelosi. All the while McLame gets a free pass.
Lou Dobbs has turned into a joke. He ripped Hillary on her immigration stance last year. Then Obama pointed out his inflamed rhetoric on immigration and border security. Now Dobbs looks for every chance to berate Obama.
And didn't you know... Mexicans are less than human and deserve to die in the desert heat!
to inform those who do not know...rasmussen is a republican hack poll..just so you know..
Posted by dennis at April 2, 2008 09:22 AMfor the uninformed..rasmussen is a republican hack organization
Posted by dennis at April 2, 2008 09:23 AMAs a Disabled Veteran, Barack Obama's plan for people with disabilities is far superior to Hillary's.
Posted by Seven of Six at April 2, 2008 09:31 AMnope imacoyote, not that at all. you know me better. i was pointing out the disenfranchisement/ discouraging of voters. engaging in the very same thing she is attempting to pin on obama. it doesn't matter if it is in tx, its the fact that she is sanctioning this behavior, if not her directly, then with her tacit approval. i pointed out the precincts to show that she is engaging in something that could be interpreted in a specific fashion, since perception is the rule in this election. discomfort well, yes, they signed up for it, but delaying just for the point of delaying, tacky indeed.
Posted by anthony at April 2, 2008 09:33 AMdennis, is PPP also a GOP shadow org? Must be, it has Obama ahead in PA.
Posted by T2 at April 2, 2008 09:35 AMAnthony, there was also a reverse happening in Texas. Clinton supporters were told the meetings were cancelled or began later...1 PM so they'd miss the time to be certified. Robocalls were made and reported on.
Seven likes to blame anybody but Democrats for the mess the DNC made in Florida and Michigan.
YouTube description: “Florida Senate Democrat Leader Steve Geller presents a sarcastic amendment during the 2007 Legislative Session in an effort to “prove” to the Democrat National Committee that Florida Democrats are faithfully trying to abide by the national party’s rules.”
h/t Corrente
Go look it up, listen, the Democratic leader in the senate wanted to move the dates up. They wanted dates moved up.
As for Dobbs...he's a equal opportunity dart thrower. He's okay, even when he skewers our president.
As for Mexicans...they deserve to be able to stay home and have good employment there. Great peoples, hard workers, fantastic families, they should be able to stay together where their homes are and earn a good living. If they want to immigrate, fine, do it right. My father had to and he waited years for his paperwork to be in order to come to America and his country was decimated by WWII, his home firebombed by the allies.
Posted by peter at April 2, 2008 09:59 AMAs for Mexicans...
I thought for sure he was going to say, "Some of my best friends are Mexican!" Or, "I really like Mexican food!"
As far as MI and FL, you admitted the other day that it was truly republi-con dirty tricks (or for you it's just shenanigans).
Posted by Seven of Six at April 2, 2008 10:08 AMyou know me better.
You're right, and I was only half-joking. And I really do understand the discouraging of voters being an issue, expecially with MI/FL issues at the forefront these days. Still, from the sound of it, especially the "we're still here" defiance, the people who showed up for the convention weren't in danger of being discouraged.
engaging in the very same thing she is attempting to pin on obama.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, though. Are you talking about the article I linked to?
i pointed out the precincts to show that she is engaging in something that could be interpreted in a specific fashion, since perception is the rule in this election.
I understand; but how does one even attempt to counter perceptions that people might have? I've noticed a lot of criticisms of Clinton are about things she didn't say that someone thinks she should have said. How does one anticipate, on the fly, what one should say in any given situation?
I think if she'd singled out the AA district to not be challenged, it would have been interpreted in a more negative way than if she (and we're obviously talking about her delegates not Hillary personally, right?) treated each district the same. Finally, I don't think the challenges were delaying for the sake of delaying. Yeah, it's a boring procedural thing, and for most states, I wouldn't think it was needed, but from what I heard about some of the chaos in some districts, I'm glad there were challenges. And so should, I think, Obama supporters. If there's going to be a brouhaha about legitimacy of the nominated candidate, which I think will happen whichever one gets the nom, it'll be nice to have Texas challenged and won, rather than unchallenged and in question, right?
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 10:09 AMSeven...I've been made an honorary Mexican by some of my co-workers...I can hold my own with the peppers.
"No Seven...if you follow your thought process...the GOP runs your party and Chrm. Dean is just a seat holder. Where's the leadership of the Democratic Party...allowing the GOP tell them what to do, how to do it; when to do it. There's just no need for the Democratic Party now. Geesh Seven, you people just don't get it. Party politics...each party runs themselves.
Hell, Barry Obama just restated SecDef Gates numbers to expand our military from last year. That's real 'change' now for you. Nothing new from your candidates...no 'change' there...same old politics...same old change."
...I've been made an honorary Mexican by some of my co-workers...
Just what I thought... a token!
Posted by Seven of Six at April 2, 2008 10:35 AMBarack Obama's plan for people with disabilities is far superior to Hillary's.
Statements like these make me think you don't buy into the hate, fear and smear of the Clintonistas. Gad!
Posted by phidipides at April 2, 2008 10:38 AMStatements like these make me think you don't buy into the hate, fear and smear of the Clintonistas. Gad!
It's a fucking shame when I stick to the issues Phid!
Posted by Seven of Six at April 2, 2008 10:48 AMt2..if it has obama ahead in pa..it must be...you want to place a little wager on who wins pa..you let me know...rasmussen is the washington times official poller...you know ...the moonie guy..and you know what else...hillary will win big in pa..and it will be the beginning of the end for barry.
Posted by dennis at April 2, 2008 10:48 AMIt's a fucking shame when I stick to the issues Phid!
I've been meaning to talk to you about your stickiness. Keep the J in your PB&Js toward the MIDDLE of your sammich.
Talk about sticky subjects, The Myths of Hillary.
Posted by phidipides at April 2, 2008 11:31 AMWe can put a stop to the FL - MI problem. Take the pledge:
"If MI and FL are not brought into the national picture immediately and their votes counted, and if Obama is the Democratic nominee, I will vote in the presidential election in November only if HRC is the nominee. If MI and FL are returned to the national picture immediately and their votes counted, then I will vote for the Democratic nominee whomever it is".
If enough of us take the pledge then Dean has few choices. If he makes the wrong choice then Obama will have no chance to be President. Period. The only choice for Dean is to bring FL and MI into the equation, now.
phidipidies..got these from the same posting..a
Major myths keeping the Obama-ites from seeing the light.
1: Losing California doesn't matter.
2: Winning Utah shows we're competitive vs. the GOP.
3: Specifics don't matter.
4: Blue Collar Ohio and PA white voters will vote Dem just because. It doesn't matter if you convince them in the primaries.
5: Rev. Wright doesn't matter to real voters.
6: The Hispanic vote can be managed.
7: Soaring rhetoric will cure the housing shortage.
8: Making big speeches while running for State Senator are equivalent to voting to go to War in the US Senate.
9: McCain can't stand up to pressure.
10: PA doesn't count. Late primaries don't count.
11: Keith Obamamann is objective.
12: Paul Krugman is the anti-christ
Posted by dennis at April 2, 2008 11:47 AMKeep the J in your PB&Js toward the MIDDLE of your sammich.
Ahhh... but how could I... slowly... lick... the jelly... off... my fingers!
"I got blisters on my fingers!"
Posted by Seven of Six at April 2, 2008 11:53 AMiamcoyote: "...As for the older people and the preggie lady, I'm sorry they were uncomfortable, but they knew what they were in for when they signed up...."
yeah, those elderly or pregnant Obama supporters, fuck them, they need to suck it up (snark)
eriposte, the MI and FL legislatures can schedule a new primary or caucas under the rules. So place the blame where it belongs, on the MI and FL legislatures.
Posted by Gay Veteran at April 2, 2008 11:59 AMYes, the people who should pay for the snafu are the party officials in Michigan and Florida, not the voters. Perhaps they should be thrown out of the party. Or required to watch tapes of every Dubya speach ever recorded - assuming such punishment would be Constitutional
Posted by steve at April 2, 2008 12:59 PMyeah, those elderly or pregnant Obama supporters, fuck them, they need to suck it up (snark)
Well, apparently, they did suck it up, didn't they? Funny how much discomfort you can take when you're doing something you believe in. Good for them. And bad on the people trying to make their enthusiam into an anti-Hillary talking point just because.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 01:13 PMiamcoyote:
i fully understand the politics involved in this. my statements are calling onto the carpet both candidates. he is blamed for mi and fl, when he wants one solution and she wants another. she stated he wants votes not counted when he says stay in the race. it all comes down to what is, is-- for both candidates. would you agree that it is disengenuous to call someone out when you engage in the exact same thing?
if we loose in november, a pox on both their houses. this november is gift wrapped. i hope the animosity between both camps, as symbolized so eloquently on this blog, doesn't end up costing up an election and four to eight more years of animous. that would be shameful, no?
good nite all, its 2330 on this side of the pond...
be good
Well, even in jest, Hillary's supporters are a day late, and not even funny. I disagree with your view, but still read your views. Be equally open.
Posted by rem at April 2, 2008 02:27 PMThen we're in agreement, anthony! Our leaders need to lead instead of engaging in, and encouraging their followers to engage in, silly ass kids' stuff. And once this election is over, pressure has to be applied to the party to get this stupid system fixed.
Always nice mixing it up with ya! Have a great night!
Posted by iamcoyote at April 2, 2008 02:47 PMMoveOn.org and other fine "liberal" organizations, some of the top bloggers, the "progressive" version of hate radio....
The item linked here is identical to the item linked in the original commentary by eriposte. It is a critique of Air America and is little more than a string of profanities. These profanities are directed at a Clinton critic on Air America. What's the point? Why did eriposte choose to draw our attention to this? I thought eriposte prided himself/herself on a rational, analytical approach.
Posted by joeldanwalls at April 2, 2008 03:00 PMwell iamcoyote, god forbid anyone think you're anti-Obama (snark)
Posted by gay veteran at April 2, 2008 06:07 PMHey Dennis:
I hope you have the cajones to admit you were so wrong when...
a. Obama gets the nomination and...
b. when he wipes the floor with Mccain in the general . I will be back here in mid Nov. looking for you Eric in Austin
Posted by ericl at April 3, 2008 10:02 AMWell done eriposte.
Posted by durendal at April 3, 2008 10:17 AM