Obama superdelegate is forced out after calling a neighbor's children "monkeys"
Moving to nip in the bud some potential bad press, White House hopeful Barack Obama's campaign persuaded a delegate to step down after she was ticketed for calling her neighbor's African-American children "monkeys."
The kids were playing in a tree and she told them to get down and quit playing in the tree like monkeys. She said she calls her own grandchildren monkeys. The kids' mother, who is African-American took it as a racial slur. Give me a break. Every parent I know has called their children monkeys at some point.
Obama and race--he should have made a statement that perhaps we should give this woman the benefit of the doubt and point out that we all call our kids monkeys when they're climbing. He can disown his superdelegate, but not his pastor. Racism run amok.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 05:23 AMOops, should have said Obama delegate, not superdelegate.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 05:25 AMRamirez-Sliwinski's $75 ticket was for "disorderly conduct," which Kilbourne defined as, "when a person does something that alarms or disturbs another."
Because she told some neighbor kids, who happen to be African American to stop climbing in a tree like monkeys? This is defined as disorderly conduct in this country?
And this is conduct that the Obama campaign of Hope and Unity and Change saw as warranting removing this woman as a delegate.
Good God this country is fucked.
So if mowing my lawn or drinking cocktails on my deck at 4pm disturbs someone, I can be charged with disorderly conduct?
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 06:13 AMHe can disown his delegate, but not his pastor.
Um, yeah. As Obama has said on many occasions, his pastor is his spiritual advisor, not his political advisor. The delegate is representing Obama politically. Even if you think that this particular incident is silly, it makes sense to hold a delegate to a higher standard than a pastor.
BTW, I don't doubt that the neighbor/delegate does call her own kids "monkeys". But that doesn't mean that one can't be aware of other people's sensitivities. Its called being empathetic.
There is a history of comparing black people to animals, esp. primates, that white people have not suffered through. Just as one would be less willing to joke about a woman's weight than a man's, because a woman would be more likely to take offense, one might try to be aware of racial and ethnic hot buttons.
I like to think that there is a middle ground between issuing tickets for this behavior and indignantly demanding the right to call black kids monkeys.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 06:34 AM...and indignantly demanding the right to call black kids monkeys.
She did not "call black kids monkeys". She asked the kids to stop climbing in the tree like monkeys. Do you not see a difference?
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 06:54 AMAnd she didn't "demand the right" to do anything. It was the parents of the kids who "demanded the right" to not be offended at the words of someone else by calling the police and having the woman fined.
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 06:56 AMAs I understand it Ramirez-Sliwinski is not stepping down, thinks she has done nothing wrong -and since she is Hispanic, the Hispanic community now seems to be offended. Curiouser and curiouser.
So if mowing my lawn or drinking cocktails on my deck at 4pm disturbs someone, I can be charged with disorderly conduct?
Yes. You can be charged with anything at anytime, then perp-walked for the cameras. On the pretzledent's word alone you can be whisked to some foreign country and have unusual objects inserted up your butt until you confess to your crimes...Colonel Mustard in the Library with a wrench!! We are a law and order country, dontcha know. The only thing you've got left is the 2nd Amendment.
Posted by phidipides at April 9, 2008 07:09 AMThere is a history of comparing black people to animals, esp. primates, that white people have not suffered through.
I am only vaguely aware of this. Is that because I'm not empathetic or sensitive or is it because it's something I've never heard in my life, growing up without any overt racism around me. At what point can old indignities be seen as innocent comments? Isn't it a good thing that maybe a younger generation (not that I'm younger) doesn't know about these things, and might use a formerly charged word or phrase innocently? I'm not arguing, just really wondering. To me, there is nothing overtly racist about calling kids monkeys. Joking about anyone's weight is rude. Comparing kids who are climbing in trees to an animal who climbs in trees doesn't innately rude or insulting to me. It's like calling kids who love the water fish.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 07:22 AMCalm the fuck down, snark. I never said the woman was indignant.
My point, which is being proven by the second, is that these type of incidents usually devolve into people taking sides and indignantly insisting that one side or the other is completely ridiculous.
I will repeat, since your reading skills are suspect, that I do not want people calling the police, arrested, fined, etc. over sensitive comments.
In a perfect world the mother would have said something like "I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't imply that my sons were monkeys. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but the phrase bothers me."
And in a perfect world, the neighbor would say, "I understand. I was just worried that they might fall and get hurt."
"Well, thanks for looking out for them. Can I invite you in for a glass of nice lemonade?"
Instead this isolated incident is blown way out of proportion and people who have never met the individuals involved, let alone each other, furiously debate, in various comment threads, who was right and who was wrong.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 07:34 AMCalm the fuck down, snark. I never said the woman was indignant.
I never accused you of saying such either. So whose reading skills are suspect?
What you did do was completely distort the facts. No one "called black kids monkeys" and no one "demanded the right" to do so. And that, my friend is how issues like this really get blown up. When people, like you, distort what actually took place.
So you seem to be the one whoi needs to calm down.
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 07:45 AMmy father in law is white. he called both my sons, little monkeys. it was his term of endearment. because of the connotations of "monkey," i asked him to not call my kids that. he didn't understand, but he agreed.
100's of years of name calling develops sensitivities. most of white america cannot relate to this. not a racial thing, but the reality of our times.
blacks are still called alls sorts of names by all sorts of people. monkey is short for alabama porch monkey. have any of you been called that. i am not jumping on the bandwagon calling for her ouster, but she should've been sensitive to those words, and the historical context they carry.
acting like is a description, yes, but using "monkey," as the descriptor is not a very wise thing to do when talking about black kids.
an apology would've quashed this entire episode.
it is funny and unfortunately sad to see how quickly things, phrases, and thoughts are dismissed as blacks and/or obamaites are overly playing the race card here.
this isn't a race card, this is reality. 100's of years of history of beatings, lynchings, rapes, etc, leads to things like this. it is what he challenged us to talk about, and if you cannot at least see how we can be pissed by words like monkey, then we definitely have a long way to go...
Posted by anthony at April 9, 2008 07:46 AMI have no doubt the neighbors weren't pals to begin with, and the cop-caller was just looking for a reason to harrass the monkey-caller. Yup, I was right (from CG's link):
The mother of one of the children did not see it that way, noting she and Ramirez-Sliwinski have clashed before.
All of them are idiots, including Obama, who took a neighborly dispute and raised it to national news by siding against one of his own supporters so he could get in a good "Help me, help me, I'm being oppressed!" bit o' grandstanding before the PA primary. It worked so well in SC, dontcha know. And now he's alienated the Hispanic community. Smart guy, huh?
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 07:49 AMComparing kids who are climbing in trees to an animal who climbs in trees doesn't innately rude or insulting to me.
As with all things, there is more to the story. The tree is on her property. The kids were being supervised by the parents. The parents were asked to remove their kids from the tree because the kids were breaking limbs. The parents refused to remove their kids from the tree.
Seems the parents have some pretty special kids there, by their way of thinking. The only thing done wrong was by Ramirez-Sliwinski. She should have had the parents charged with trespassing, destruction of property, and the kids removed from the parent's custody. That gets the attention of parents with "special children" every time.
Unfortunately, this would have been handled differently in my little red state. Someone would have "gotten they 9" and "busted a cap" in someone else's ass. Then the police would do a perfunctory apology for not being able to find the perp.
Posted by phidipides at April 9, 2008 07:49 AMI am only vaguely aware of this. Is that because I'm not empathetic or sensitive or is it because it's something I've never heard in my life, growing up without any overt racism around me.
Well, you are either very fortunate or very oblivious. Not knowing your personal circumstances, I am not a liberty to proffer an opinion as to which is more likely. But, in any, case, it isn't the point.
The point, which Obama admirably made clear in his speech on race, is that people's opinions do not have to be mutually exclusive.
White people (or in this case light-skinned Latinos) can be right to object to police intervention over an innocent remark.
And black people can be right to object to the use of otherwise innocent remarks if they invoke, suggest, or mirror willfully hurtful remarks made by others.
These aren't mutually exclusive.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 07:55 AManthony,
...but using "monkey," as the descriptor is not a very wise thing to do when talking about black kids.
How about using it as a descriptor when talking about "kids climbing in a tree"?
Here's a thought. What if she didn't look up in the tree and see "black kids climbing in a tree" but saw "kids climbing in a tree". Are you telling me that you think it would be preferable that she immediately, without a thought, draw the distinction between "white kids" and "black kids" in her mind and consider that in how she would warn them about the dangers of climbing in trees? That she should be inately conscious of the historical facts and incorporate that into her response? And if that's the case, how can you fault that same woman should she respond be crossing the street if she saw a "black kid" coming up the street towards her if she justified responding differently to what she would do if a white person were coming towards her by saying she is aware of the fact that the majority of crime in the area is committed by black males?
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 08:05 AM
What if she didn't look up in the tree and see "black kids climbing in a tree" but saw "kids climbing in a tree".
My god, snark, did you have to go all postal on space? I mean, calm the fuck down! You're being aggressively logical and violently thoughtful! Cut it out!
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 08:10 AM"White people (or in this case light-skinned Latinos) can be right to object to police intervention over an innocent remark."
As opposed to dark skinned Latinos? What's the difference? In my Latino family we have light and dark and quite a few red heads. All are Latino and proud to be so. Your post seems to place emphasis on "light skinned". Are you making some sort of distinction as to the color of someones skin as to objections to police intervention?
You go on to say this.
"And black people can be right to object to the use of otherwise innocent remarks if they invoke, suggest, or mirror willfully hurtful remarks made by others."
But whites and "light skinned Latinos" would be out of bounds to object to innocent remarks? This is just more racist crap.
Posted by manapp99 at April 9, 2008 08:18 AMI'm having a bad day. I have to agree with snark and coyote.
Posted by JohnT at April 9, 2008 08:35 AMHeh, JohnT. That's gotta hurt! *smirk*
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 08:38 AMI'm having a bad day.
Or perhaps this is a good day and you just hadn't had the experience previously? ;)
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 08:41 AMHere's a thought. What if she didn't look up in the tree and see "black kids climbing in a tree" but saw "kids climbing in a tree".
Is this a serious question? That she had never noticed that her own neighbors were black? Or are you suggesting that she just saw "kids" in the tree and didn't recognize them as her neighbors? Can we keep the questions within the bounds of rational discourse, please?
Here's the thing. I'm telling you that some people have a problem with this. You may never have heard it before. You may think it is silly. You may not get it. But they do.
Now that you know, whether you choose to ignore their feelings or not is entirely up to you.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 08:42 AMmanapp99:
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I am saying that only blacks or dark-skinned Latinos may complain about innocent remarks. And only whites and white-skinned latinos may complain about having the police called because of innocent remarks they make.
What a minute! That is completely fucking stupid. Thanks for pointing it out. Maybe that wasn't what I was saying.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 08:47 AMIs this a serious question? That she had never noticed that her own neighbors were black? Or are you suggesting that she just saw "kids" in the tree and didn't recognize them as her neighbors? Can we keep the questions within the bounds of rational discourse, please?
Since you obviously don't understand the question why not just leave it for someone who might.
Here's the thing. I'm telling you that some people have a problem with this.
I'm sure that's the case and I have not attempted to deny that.
You may never have heard it before.
I said no such thing.
You may think it is silly.
I didn't say that either.
You may not get it.
I do.
But they do.
As is their right.
Now that you know, whether you choose to ignore their feelings or not is entirely up to you.
This has nothing to do with me ignoring anyone. I was not involved. So their feelings were hurt. And the neighbor woman wound up with a $75 ticket because she hurt her neighbors feelings. And Barack Obama apparently feels it's appropriate that she resign as a delegate because a comment she made hurt the feelings of her neighbors.
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 08:56 AMsnark:
you are missing the point. one, how can she not see the kids in the tree are black? two, i am pointing out how "monkey," is seen as insensitive towards black people. if you cannot see or understand that, you are living in a vacuum. using "monkey," to describe or use as a descriptor for an action when directed at a black person, or in light of the dark skinned lation argument, lets say dark skinned peoples, can be seen as offensive. if you don't believe my premise, i challenge you go outside and call the nearest black person you see or describe their behavior as a "monkey," or "monkey like." when you do, tell us their reaction.
sorry, it should read "dark skinned latino."
Posted by anthony at April 9, 2008 09:07 AMyou are missing the point. one, how can she not see the kids in the tree are black?
No, you are.
i challenge you go outside and call the nearest black person you see or describe their behavior as a "monkey," or "monkey like." when you do, tell us their reaction.
What if the "nearest black person (I) see" is not a child climbing and swinging from tree branches? Would that not make the circumstances rather dissimiliar?
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 09:07 AMsnark:
are we not talking about what is considered offensive?
What if the "nearest black person (I) see" is not a child climbing and swinging from tree branches? Would that not make the circumstances rather dissimiliar?
then call a dark skinned kid in a tree, "monkey"
or "monkey like," in ear shot of their parents. i assure you the reaction, 8-9 times out of ten would be the same. are you unwilling or unable to acknowledge this term is offensive to dark skinned people, which is the premise of my original arguments.
i said in the above post, an apology probably would've quashed the thing. how can we have a dialogue about race when one seems unable or unwilling to accept what is considered offensive?
How in the world this absurd domestic dispute become something to do with being an Obama delegate? Who the hell knew she was one?
Oy, I can't take much more.....
Posted by euzoius at April 9, 2008 09:30 AMSomething else is happening here ans it's not about 'monkeys'. "Brady Bunch" used the term 'monkeys' more often than not. Then theres "stop monkeying around" phrase. The neighbor had something else wrong.
How about Sadr getting isolated by both Iran and Sistani? Strange bedfellows...
Posted by peter at April 9, 2008 09:34 AMhow can we have a dialogue about race when one seems unable or unwilling to accept what is considered offensive?
You don't seem to want to have a dialogue. You just want to state what is offensive and have that be that.
No where have I stated that "being called a monkey" is not offensive to African Americans or any other dark skinned person that anyone can possibly consider could find offense at such.
You like hypotheticals so I'll restate mine;
Here's a thought. What if she didn't look up in the tree and see "black kids climbing in a tree" but saw "kids climbing in a tree". Are you telling me that you think it would be preferable that she immediately, without a thought, draw the distinction between "white kids" and "black kids" in her mind and consider that in how she would warn them about the dangers of climbing in trees? That she should be inately conscious of the historical facts and incorporate that into her response? And if that's the case, how can you fault that same woman should she respond be crossing the street if she saw a "black kid" coming up the street towards her if she justified responding differently to what she would do if a white person were coming towards her by saying she is aware of the fact that the majority of crime in the area is committed by black males?
I am only vaguely aware of this. Is that because I'm not empathetic or sensitive or is it because it's something I've never heard in my life, growing up without any overt racism around me.
Well, you are either very fortunate or very oblivious. Not knowing your personal circumstances, I am not a liberty to proffer an opinion as to which is more likely. But, in any, case, it isn't the point.
Possibly a little of both, but seriously, I just didn't hear racism growing up. Is that such a bad thing?
my father in law is white. he called both my sons, little monkeys. it was his term of endearment. because of the connotations of "monkey," i asked him to not call my kids that. he didn't understand, but he agreed.
I'm glad he respected your wishes. But is it a bad thing if some people have never heard the negative connotations? What do you think of the use of "the n word" in pop culture? It would seriously make me cringe to hear a white person use that term. But to some white teens, they just hear it in songs and it's not anything derogatory to them. Is that a bad thing, or a good thing? I'm seriously asking. Like the word "queer" has been reclaimed so to speak, by the gay community. I would not use that word, but I suppose many straight teens, not every having heard it used in a derogatory way might use it.
that was me above
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 10:17 AMApparently none of you have ever attended a sensitivity workshop. If you did, you would learn that the measure of an insult is determined by the person insulted, not by the person who did the insulting. It doesn't matter whether YOU think the monkey comment was an insult, what matters are the feelings of the children's parent. If she was insulted, it was an insult. End of story.
Posted by balthus at April 9, 2008 10:17 AMYes, it is obvious that the Latino woman never attended a sensitivity workshop.
She should have yelled, "Get the fuck out of my God damn tree before you little bastards fall and break something, you're not fucking flying squirrels ya know!"
Oops. Now I've done it.
Squirrel = squirrley = mental defect = black people are mentally inferior = hurt feelings = 75 dollar fine.
Bastards = reference to high percentage of black children born out of wedlock = hate crime = 10 years in a federal prison.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 10:42 AMShe should have yelled, "Get the fuck out of my God damn tree before you little bastards fall and break something, you're not fucking flying squirrels ya know!"
That is so inappropriate. It wasn't her tree.
Posted by space at April 9, 2008 10:57 AMthat the measure of an insult is determined by the person insulted, not by the person who did the insulting.
Seriously? Some people are just really really sensitive.
So let's say the woman who said the kids were acting like monkeys didn't mean anything by it and had no idea it was any kind of insult. Let's say the parent of the kids was insulted. Fine. Why doesn't Obama say something like "I understand why Mrs. X was insulted. There is a long history of blah blah blah. I am also willing to take Mrs. Y at her word that she did not mean any kind of racial insult and was merely commenting on the kids' climbing abilities and asking them to get down from the tree before they got hurt." Come on Obama, lead.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 10:59 AM"That is so inappropriate. It wasn't her tree."
...I have read reports both ways, but I'll change it for you: "Get the fuck out of THAT God damn tree before you little bastards fall and break something, you're not fucking flying squirrels ya know!"
Come on Obama, lead.
Oh, he will. As soon as he can find a way to tie the Latina to Hillary. Maybe forcing her to step down as a delegate, which made her say she won't run for trustee again, (Obama's community building in action) will make her go over to Hillary's side! Then Obama can drag her through the mud a couple weeks before the next primaries. That's a leader, dammit!
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 11:15 AMsnark:
so, she looks in the tree and sees kids, but not their skin color?
i still walk the streets and have white women move their purses to the other side, even when i'm with my wife...
the original question i believe yours was:
Because she told some neighbor kids, who happen to be African American to stop climbing in a tree like monkeys? This is defined as disorderly conduct in this country?
i pointed out why this would be offensive and thus garnered the ticket. as i previously said, an apology may have squashed the situation.
and i am willing to have this conversation, it is disengenuous of you to imply otherwise.
to answer cg above, i abhore the n bomb. don't use it, but i understand why many of my folks do.
this has nothing to do with obama, but everything to do with sensitivity and yes, racism. not calling her a racist, but the history of our country is rife with the stink of it. to say it is gone is a fallacy. what she said, for the sake of argument, was innocent, yet she offended a family. why not apologize for it?
listen to strange fruit sometime by billie holiday. poignant. or rifle through the pages of without sanctuary. or look at the freemen and how close david duke was to winning a congressional seat. it is out there, and we face it daily. to say it doesn't happen, to minimize whether or not i am offended, or any other brown skin person is offended by the term monkey, demeans, lessens, and trivializes the conversation, ie. tiki al.
"ie. tiki al."
...You have tried to lessen, demean, and trivialize me by not capping my name. Did you do this on purpose, or do you lack sensitivity workshop credits?
Try to put yourself in the place of the person whose feelings are hurt.
For $75 I will fougheddabouditt.
so, she looks in the tree and sees kids, but not their skin color?
I'd imagine their skin color was apparent to her. But what she reacted to was kids climbing in a tree.
i still walk the streets and have white women move their purses to the other side, even when i'm with my wife...
And you would prefer that those white women behaved how instead?
i pointed out why this would be offensive and thus garnered the ticket. as i previously said, an apology may have squashed the situation.
She does not believe she did anything to warrant receiving the ticket. So why should she apologize to avoid getting one.
and i am willing to have this conversation, it is disengenuous of you to imply otherwise.
That's how I perceived your comments. Granted, I'm not black but I would expect that my perceptions are at least as valid as the perceptions of a black person, no?
...racism...the history of our country is rife with the stink of it. to say it is gone is a fallacy.
No one here has said it is gone so this would appear to have nothing to do with that either.
what she said, for the sake of argument, was innocent, yet she offended a family. why not apologize for it?
Because she does not believe she did anything to merit having to offer an apology. And I agree with her.
listen to strange fruit sometime by billie holiday. poignant. or rifle through the pages of without sanctuary. or look at the freemen and how close david duke was to winning a congressional seat. it is out there, and we face it daily. to say it doesn't happen, to minimize whether or not i am offended, or any other brown skin person is offended by the term monkey, demeans, lessens, and trivializes the conversation, ie. tiki al.
See, there is not room for conversation in what you just wrote. The only acceptable resolution to this situation from your point of view is for the woman to apologize, or pay a fine. If one denies or EVEN minimizes your offense, or the offense of the family, it is unacceptable. So where exactly is the room for conversation? I maintain, you are not interested in having a conversation.
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 12:17 PMI'd imagine their skin color was apparent to her. But what she reacted to was kids climbing in a tree.
I'd imagine she simply saw her neighbor's kids and didn't think about their skin color. When I see my neighbors, I think "oh, there are my neighbors. Hi there!" I don't think "there are my black neighbors" or "there are my Indian neighbors" or "there are my Vietnamese neighbors" or "there are my white neighbors" or "there are my Jewish neighbors" or "there are my Chinese neighbors" or "there are my mixed-race neighbors." Sheesh, until I typed that all out, I didn't realize what a diverse neighborhood I lived in and all those families (x2 or more) live on my block.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 12:46 PMAs for the issue of an apology, we don't know what happened. The article I saw said that she didn't mean anything by it, but the neighbor didn't believe it and there had been problems before. We don't know if those problems were racial in nature. We don't know if she tried to apologize, but it didn't help. We don't know if the neighbor calmly addressed the insult and the Latino woman got hostile and defensive. We don't know if the neighbor started out hostile, etc.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 12:52 PMEver notice that when very small Vietnamese kids are WAY up in a tree, they kinda look like flying squirrels from the ground?
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 12:52 PMi pointed out why this would be offensive and thus garnered the ticket.
So it doesn't bother you that people who get offended might call the police and have the offender ticketed? I think the cops, and a US Senator, have more important things to worry about, don't you? This, and the fact that Obama intervened to save his own ass, is the real outrage of the story, not that two neighbors (with an apparent history) are fighting over hurt feelings. It seems like a silly little story, but man, if I were McCain's team, Obama would be toast for encouraging a neighbor to call the cops because someone said something that another person decided to take offense to. I mean, if it were proclaimed far and wide that Obama believes anyone who hurts someone else's feelings should be fined, (Political Correctness gone haywire as the righties always predicted) think of how many voters would turn on him.
We don't know if the neighbor calmly addressed the insult and the Latino woman got hostile and defensive.
CG's right, she is an Obama supporter, and you know how they are!
Ever notice that when very small Vietnamese kids are WAY up in a tree, they kinda look like flying squirrels from the ground?
That's it! I'm calling the cops. We squirrels don't have to take this abuse.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 01:12 PMif i offended you in any way, i would apologize, simple as that. there are numerous acceptable solutions.
what bothers me is that one, the term was used, two, no apology mentioned, and three the cops were called, that is a bit much.
it is true, we don't know the details of all that went on. however, to a dark skinned person, monkey is offensive. it garners the same connotations as the n bomb. you can't see or don't want to see that. to you monkey is harmless. thus the squirrel commentary. it truly belittles you and your arguments.
i added the last few tidbits to offer you a glimpse of what we had to go through as a people in this country. so the original point was monkey was and is offensive to 99% of us, period. i've told you why that is. if my explanation isn't good enough for you, ask any other "dark skinned," person you know.
we cannot have a decent conversation on race if you will not acknowledge that some words are offensive. there are more out there than the n bomb...
Posted by anthony at April 9, 2008 02:35 PManthony,
Who is that last commented directed at?
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 02:45 PMExcuse me, "Who is that last comment directed at?".
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 02:46 PMI have been calling Bush a chimp and a simion for years because of his less than human intelligence.
If you go back far enough in evolution, Bush has black ancestors. Where was the outrage?
Now if Obama becomes president and starts pulling some Bush league boners, what animal can I compare him with? I'll bet chimp and simion will be off the table, right?
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 03:08 PMI cannot believe that a whole fucking comment section, with all the issues we face, is dedicated to calling kids monkeys when climbing. How about saying "hey kids, stop climbing that tree like a frog." Everyone happy now? Jeez! This Country is being over run with stupidity!
Posted by Judith at April 9, 2008 04:01 PM"McCain told NBC News that "to think that I would have some lack of knowledge about Sunni and Shia after my eighth visit and my deep involvement in this issue is a bit ludicrous." Guess what, he made the same slip of the tongue again yesterday.
Posted by at April 9, 2008 04:10 PM"hey kids, stop climbing that tree like a frog."
...Judith, demeaning the French is no longer fashionable.
And don't try to slip "treefrog" in there, either.
Now I'm off to plunk my magic twanger.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 04:49 PMI cannot believe that a whole fucking comment section, with all the issues we face, is dedicated to calling kids monkeys when climbing.
Well, it is an open thread, and since people felt like talking about it, where's the harm? There are other threads talking about the issues, aren't there?
Everyone happy now?
Whaddaya got against happiness? *smirk* But really, Judith, though TIKI and I are having a bit of fun, there is a good conversation about race between anthony and snark that's been going on for a week or two that may seem adversarial, but is actually quite respectful and fascinating. kacey's input has been great as well. I think CG learned some things; I know I have.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 04:57 PMI think CG learned some things; I know I have.
Yup, I always like hearing Anthony's point of view on race issues. The stuff about black churches during the Wright thing was especially enlightening. I think it is good to acknowledge that certain terms may be offensive to a particular group of people, but I'd also like the particular group to acknowledge that some of us might not mean anything by it. But if I were educated about it, I would avoid doing it again out of respect for that group.
Posted by CG at April 9, 2008 05:11 PMBut if I were educated about it, I would avoid doing it again out of respect for that group.
As would most, if not all, of us would do as well.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 05:40 PMJudith,
Sorry you don't think that being issued a $75 disorderly conduct citation for asking someone's kids to stop climbing in a tree like monkeys is not significant enough to warrant discussion. I do. Perhaps if she were strip searched and groped by the cops it would rise to the level?
I do enjoy the exchanges with anthony but my honest impression is that there is not so much an interest in having a conversation on race as there is a desire to annunciate the rules for white people.
I've been trying to get a response on, as I see it, a rather simple comparison but anthony doesn't seem interested in addressing it. Too bad, and I'm sure we've lost him for the evening as I believe he resides in England.
Posted by snark at April 9, 2008 05:50 PMthere is not so much an interest in having a conversation on race as there is a desire to annunciate the rules for white people.
A valid point, I think. I wonder how much discussion about race ends up sounding like that, too, coming from all sides.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 05:57 PMSo it was fun for you too, hey coyote?
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 06:01 PMWe have become so 'politically correct' that we are no longer rational about anything. I guess we can no longer say "the jigs up" either.
Posted by Judith at April 9, 2008 06:11 PMThe person who cited her and the person who charged her $75.00 is an idiot too. I thought we had freedom of speech, but evidently only as long as we don't offend some idiot neighbor.
Posted by Judith at April 9, 2008 06:20 PM
Judith, you can say "the jig's up" when they finally produce a war crimes smoking gun on Bush and Cheney.
YOU CANNOT SAY "the jig's up" when Obama soars in the polls.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 9, 2008 06:21 PM"YOU CANNOT SAY "the jig's up" when Obama soars in the polls.
ROFLMAO.
TIKI, you always make me laugh, ya big lug.
Posted by iamcoyote at April 9, 2008 07:10 PMTIKI, Quit being so 'niggardly' with the jokes!
Posted by Seven of Six at April 9, 2008 09:19 PMTIKI, Quit being so 'niggardly' with the jokes!
Oh man, I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but there was a big brouhaha a few years back when a DC politician or official (can't remember who, but he must have been white) used that word. He may have even had to step down. I remember having "niggardly" as a vocabulary word in high school and thinking, you've got to be kidding me--I would never use this word. It's way too close.
Posted by CG at April 10, 2008 04:12 AMWe need a book of banned words.
Posted by Judith at April 10, 2008 08:08 AMI remember having "niggardly" as a vocabulary word in high school and thinking, you've got to be kidding me--I would never use this word. It's way too close.
There's an important point here. And I'd value anthony's opinion on it. The word "niggardly" has absolutely nothing to do with the word "nigger". It derives from a Scandinavian root word meaning "cheap" or "miserly". Now, should I use that word in conversation with an African American person and that person take offense at my use of the word is it my fault? After all, if insult is taken it is irrelevant whether insult was intended or not (my sensitivity training has taught me that). So is it incumbent on me to explain the etymology of "niggardly"? Should I just excise it from my vocabulary to avoid misunderstanding? Or is it incumbent on the African American person to educate themselves to the fact that the history of the word "niggardly" has nothing at all to do with racism?
Posted by snark at April 10, 2008 09:08 AM"the word "niggardly" has nothing at all to do with racism?" ...snark
I beg to differ. Many black people don't have much money and are forced to behave "niggardly" to make ends meet.
Seventied it!
Posted by Seven of Six at April 10, 2008 03:29 PMDamn you SOS!!
Posted by iamcoyote at April 10, 2008 05:06 PM