You're right. He wasn't giving her the finger. He's not that stupid.
Of course, that fact makes it all the more ironic that NBC News and MSNBC clearly and ham-handedly edited that little clip right out of their video of Obama's speech for their broadcasts later that evening.
Posted by Donald from Hawaii at April 19, 2008 03:53 PMthe corporate media have been very soft on him. now that they realize he may be the one who faces off against saint maverick, that's beginning to change.
Posted by Turkana at April 19, 2008 03:56 PMHey Turkana, were their actually 40,000 people at that Obama rally last night?
I couldn't make it, so I thought I'd ask.
7o6,
dunno. but the size of a rally doesn't tell us much.
Posted by Turkana at April 19, 2008 04:18 PMIf Obama could be considered to be a serious, and thoughtful candidate to be President of the United States of America, this issue would have not come up. But as long as his only qualification is repeating the mantra of "hope for change" or "change for hope" or whatever combination of these nouns is in fashion this week, the adult voting public will question what juvenile activity he is practising.
Posted by Bagley at April 19, 2008 04:30 PMbagley,
i love your consistency. no matter the issue, no matter whether it's simple or complex, no matter whether it's straight-forward or subtle, we can always count on you to write something irrelevant and inconsequential. thanks!
Posted by Turkana at April 19, 2008 04:46 PM"...irrelevant and inconsequential...."
The end-result of all things posted at TLC.
P.S. What day of the week is it, Turkana?
Posted by Bagley at April 19, 2008 04:53 PMI couldn't make it, so I thought I'd ask.
Was Obama in AZ?
Posted by iamcoyote at April 19, 2008 05:06 PMYes, Bagley, it is Obama's immaturity in question that naturally leads to discussions about whether or not he's flipping his opponent the bird as opposed to the maturity of the people suggesting as much.
Posted by Bailey at April 19, 2008 05:10 PM"Yes, Bagley, it is Obama's immaturity in question that naturally leads to discussions about whether or not he's flipping his opponent the bird as opposed to the maturity of the people suggesting as much."
I never used the word "immature," I used the word "juvenile."
P.S. People would not ask, if they did not think it could be.
Posted by Bagley at April 19, 2008 05:17 PMThank you, Turkana, for finally getting this set straight. The guy scratched his face...a nervous tick that many of us have done in like manner unconciously. Too bad you couldn't see the obvious yesteday as morons such as dennis hogged TLC with breathless scorn of Obama's "finger". Chalk it up as yet another day wasted chasing shadows. tiresome.
Posted by T2 at April 19, 2008 05:39 PMGee, a still photo, from another angle, shows something different?
How do we know where his fingers were immediatley before and after the still picture?
What's the provenence of the picture? Is it even the same rally? The same point in time in the rally?
Look at the faces of the crowd, they aren't cheering and laughing like you can hear in the video.
Sorry, your evidence is no evidence.
Posted by myiq2xu at April 19, 2008 05:48 PMT2,
How about some props for us unbelievers who dismissed the whole thing from the get go?
myiq2xu,
Will this go down in history as the "magic finger"? The mysteriious 'second finger' that somehow was only visible from one angle?
Sadly, I think you misnamed yourself.
Posted by snark at April 19, 2008 05:58 PMObama's ever-attentive crowd sure thought they saw something worth yelping about. They were actually in the room and didn't have to count his fingers to feel the vibe.
Best evidence. At least for his supporters' immaturity, if not for his own boorishness.
Turkana,
How did you get stuck recanting eRipostal's WIDELY DISPROVED allegation that Obama flipped Clinton 'the bird'? Your post certainly is not an apology which would be eriposte's job.
So your recantation must just be an insincere Saturday afternoon 'dump'?
When I challenged eriposte's claim that Clinton had "roughly half" of the Party base, as well as dismissing the 'middle finger' charge in the same post; he again repeated the claim and obfuscated further suggesting that I was on a different planet.
As you well know, some of us Obama supporters have had the dignity and grace to apologize to the readership for single episodes of passing on discredited claims. Now it's your repeat-offender and confederate's turn to APOLOGIZE in a wriiten post to the community.
Something tells me that it 'aint going to happen. If that is the case and eriposte chooses not to reinstate what remaining cresibility he has, then I repeat my HOPE that you and he elect to join your fellow yellow jounalists and 'small tent democrats' at the self-described "shrill" Corrente or at Talk Left.
The sooner the better.
Posted by tfitznc at April 19, 2008 06:04 PMTurkana,
Will the sun rise in the morning?
Regards,
Bagley
Posted by Bagley at April 19, 2008 06:06 PMYou know, I knew the Obama crowds cheered when Obama blew his nose, but now, apparently, they cheer -- and turn to each other and explain -- when Obama scratches his face with his pinky. Good to know.
Seriously, how do you refute multiple videos with a still?
Posted by Lambert Strether, Philadelphia, PA at April 19, 2008 06:17 PMWill this go down in history as the "magic finger"? The mysteriious 'second finger' that somehow was only visible from one angle?
Many report they saw a finger on the grassy knoll!
Hey Turkana, were their actually 40,000 people at that Obama rally last night?
35,000. McCain consistently pulls in the 20's...21 or 22. Sometimes as many as twenty-eight people show up. As long as Hillary is discussing important matters...like fashion...at a private college...closed event...she draws pretty good too. I wish Obama would do that at a college. You know, discuss fashion. Right or left, boxers or briefs, Armani break in the inseam. These are pretty weighty issues.
Posted by phidipides at April 19, 2008 06:42 PMMedia Matters may have the photo, but I watched the tape from two angles, listened to him and listened to the crowd and he was giving her the finger, giving her the finger with a smirk on his face. Just like W. He can joke all he wants but he has completely lost me.
Posted by jmac at April 19, 2008 07:55 PMDon't piss on me and tell me it's rain....he gave her the bird....but nevertheless....Pa will give him the bird on the 22nd.
Posted by kefa at April 19, 2008 08:03 PMturkana -
i'm not sure, either,
but your post elicits
hmmm.
from me.
Posted by at April 19, 2008 08:08 PMI still say that the entire routine that Obama performed, flipping the bird and brushing off the shoulders (women) like the Jay-Z song goes was actually pretty funny. No Obama supporter that I know thinks he did anything different than that, and they thought it was funny as well. I don't get the big deal people are making over it. I hope he does it in a debate with McCain.
Posted by jeter at April 19, 2008 08:14 PMDonald from Hawaii @ 3:55 --
Did MSNBC and NBC edit out the flicking something off his shoulders and shaking or scraping something off his shoe as well?
That was almost richer than the bird gesture.
Posted by jawbone at April 19, 2008 08:18 PMThe big deal was he was talking about Clinton at the time - Clinton putting the knife in him. He just might need Clinton supporters to win in the fall because he's having a hard time getting the white lunch-box crowd (who he thinks are all racist).
And he's been running like W - letting his minions do the dirty work with the door-to-door flyers while he stays above it - except he hasn't - he's gotten plenty of knife jabs in while the press has coddled him.
Jawbone - the tape I saw played on MSNBC had no sound and none of the other jesters and no expressions or noise from the crowd. So, yes, in that case he was just casually brushing his face with his finger.
He's as immature and green as W.
If Obama is not electable because he acts like a lot of other 45 year old guys who still want to be cool to the younger generation - some of whose lives revolve entirely around the culture of the people and world they live in - then he is unelectable. I think a strong case can be made that he shouldn't be nominated based on his really faulty health care plan, and his ideas to restore the economy - which are basically diminutive of Hillary Clinton's ideas. He's working the youth culture, especially that of a whole lot of the Black community. He's tapping into the angry vein of some union members. He's leaning hard on sexual stereotypes, which in and of itself makes him someone who a lot of Democrats will have a hard time forgiving. He's a pretty typical guy whose always had it pretty easy, and his arrogant cockiness is part of who he is. He reminds me of a current President I can't stand, but except for the dramatic change in culture that he would bring to The White House he would make a far better President than W. Or McCain. I don't think he has anywhere near the skills or experience we need right now, and which Hillary Clinton is offering, but I'm not the only voter in the Democratic Party. I just hope that Democrats vote for the person who they would hire to do the job, which last time I looked wasn't culture Prince of the USA.
Posted by jeter at April 19, 2008 09:09 PMSo he's eloquent "in words only" (verbal) but not so much in body language, eh? I saw that well timed smirk. Snake oil comes to mind.
Posted by Sharon at April 19, 2008 09:29 PMtfitz,
no apology is needed from eriposte, and this is not a recant. plenty of people on all sides of all divides thought they saw the bird. your ongoing war is not helpful to you or your cause.
Posted by Turkana at April 19, 2008 10:34 PMNo apology then--for the shadow of stuff and nonsense?--for the conjuring of another canard?
Another puff of eriposte's vapors and phantasmagoria;--well,-- like the Maltese Falcon, Sweetheart, the bird is the "stuff that dreams are made of".
Posted by Copeland at April 20, 2008 12:52 AMcopeland,
the bulk of eriposte's piece was not about the finger. there was much more to it, and its validity did not depend on that incident
Posted by Turkana at April 20, 2008 01:47 AMi think that by the reaction of those in the room he was giving her the finger...can one be sure..no..but does a voter have to decide another chapter of barry's character and what he really meant..yeah they do..big day tues..very big
Posted by dennis at April 20, 2008 02:43 AMTurkana,
The "finger" was teased out of the smoke of over-active imagination; and eriposte seized upon it as a hook, for a direct assault on Obama's character; it served as a pollutant to pour over the opponent's head. The thesis contained in this phantasmagoria of face-scatching is meant to discount, in the most cynical way, the central ethos of Obama himself, using direct character assassination, to mock the healing, unifying theme of Obama's campaign.
I am not so cynical as to believe that the groundswell of support around Obama and the recognition widely held by his voters and many leaders in the Democatic party is just tosh. I'm under no illusions about him; I know he is a centrist. He will on occassion, undoubtedly, be a disappointment to progressive aspirations. Yet I see a better leader in him than in Clinton.
Eriposte is nothing, if not fastidious, about cutting off all avenues of criticism of Clinton. Specific and thematic criticisms are met with the charge of "derangement", and criticisms that have followed both Clintons through the years are dismissed because republicans have on occassion parroted them. New critics, old critics, critics from the left and the leftie blogosphere, are given short shrift and tossed onto the heretic fire.
But the unkindest cut of all is the rude dismissal of progressive activists for wanting something better than the standard issue, big donor, triangulating DLC standard bearer. It is comic, on top of that, to accuse the progressives and supporters of more populist leaders like John Edwards of being the little tent advocates; when it has been the damned DLC machine that has constantly pushed progressives and their candidates out of the inner circle. Some people in the Big Tent are more equal than others, it seems.
Posted by Copeland at April 20, 2008 03:41 AMTurkana,
As you well know, this is not MY war.
First, it is not a "war". It is merely an attempt to provide a balance or counterargument to some of the nonsense that you and eriposte have been spewing on this site for months.
Second, there are many other commenters who have stuck their necks out to challenge what has become the Left Coaster CW. I will cease challenging your comments when the primary is resolved or when the two of you published in a balanced and factual manner.
Third, MANY of the arguments advanced by eripostal in his 'middle finger' post were spurious, inflammatory, and unfounded. He named his post, I obviously didn't. He didnt have the courtesy to respond to my main refutation which was backed up my multiple, independent polling data.
It is my understanding that eriposte will issues an "update" today; so we shall see.
Coming in late...that picture doesn't put this to rest in the slightest. His middle finger could have been more prominently sticking up right before or after that, and even if it wasn't, it can still be taken as a subtle finger-flip. I don't know if he did it on purpose or not, but it sure looks like it was intentional and the crowd reacted that way. I don't want another mean president and I've seen and heard other things from Obama that rub me the wrong way--the backhanded way he insults Clinton, for example. Either call her out on something or don't, but don't pretend you're being all understanding and not doing it when you really are. I don't like his style and this just adds to my dislike of him.
Posted by CG at April 20, 2008 06:49 AMtfitz,
funny thing- your often juvenile responses never actually refute what we write. keep trying, though.
Posted by Turkana at April 20, 2008 10:58 AMnote:
i see i neglected to sign my comment at 8:08 on 4/19.
orionATL
Posted by orionATL at April 20, 2008 04:34 PMBy now there have been video's of two seperate locations where Obama's face was itchy at previously the same moment in his speeches Clinton in her element]....and with the same finger.
Coincidence? Really ..?????
Posted by Iloqium at April 21, 2008 10:19 AM