The Iraqi government (elected) is majority Shia, the population is majority Shia. Iran is Shia. All are against Sunni Iraqi's and Sunni in general. That is what was behind the war they had. Both Sunni and Shia consider Christians infidels. Both Sunni and Shia hate Israeli's. The US are Christian and Jews. The US wants to rule Iraq, using Shia puppets and Sunni puppets. It's not gonna work, folks.
Posted by T2 at May 5, 2008 01:28 PMIt's not gonna work, folks.
Understatement of the year.
As I posted on Digby's joint, even if all this crap is true, so what?
We are the occupying imperialistic power who threatens Iran on a daily basis. Iran would be fools not to try to undermine our position there. And if Iran did absolutely nothing and completely sat on their hands, would there be any less violence targeted towards U.S. troops?
If anything, Iran may have a moderating influence as seen in the recent Basra flair-up. Maliki is just as much their boy as he is ours.
BTW, most of the 'evidence' comes from four captured militiamen who I am sure were treated with nothing but dignity and respected until they confessed to just what Cheney wanted to hear.
We need somebody other than Likud and Texaco running our foreign policy.
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 5, 2008 01:38 PMI took the other angle to this - because the administration and other powers can't seem to do anything but gin up the intel.
The numbers simply say that we'd have to significantly up the military commitment, and that the administration would have to invest far more of itself than the semi-coherent excuses that get put up right now. I see this period as 'slogan testing'. What's working for an excuse for action. and so far, both the public and media seem unwilling to bite. The administration is looking for the key slogan - and then the rest of these will be trotted out behind to build up the facade so it doesn't look so thin.
Without a serious political force investiture, all this is is saber-rattling as the administration is in a balance of violence, trying to push the Iranians around. At the same time, we're well aware that pushing them too much will cause exactly what we allege and worse.
Posted by idiosynchronic at May 5, 2008 02:18 PM"The Iraqi government (elected)"
The Iraqi government was not elected, it was appointed, and then only with the approval of the occupying power (remember how Bush nixed the first attempted Prime Minister appointment, and sent Condoleeeeeeeeeezzzzzzza and Jack Straw to "advise" the Iraqis on who would be an "appropriate" PM?).
"is majority Shia, the population is majority Shia. Iran is Shia. All are against Sunni Iraqi's and Sunni in general."
No, they are not against either Sunni Iraqis or Sunnis in general. Sunnis and Shi`as have been coexisting and cooperating and intermarrying for centuries with only a tiny minority within each group objecting to the other. The majority of Iraqi Arab tribes are mixed Sunni and Shi`a. Whether someone was a Sunni or a Shi`a was never an issue before the U.S. came in and turned into one.
"That is what was behind the war they had."
No, that is NOT what was behind the war they had - not even a little bit. What was behind the war they had was completely unconnected with religion. It was a combination of a dispute over territory, greed, and lust for power. It had absolutely nothing to do with religion.
"Both Sunni and Shia consider Christians infidels."
No, they do not. First of all, an "infidel" is a non-believer, and the Qur'an designates Christians and Jews as believers, not "infidels". The Qur'an is very clear in a number of passages about the close and important relationship among the three Abrahamic religions and the people who adhere to them. Judaism and Christianity are closely intertwined with Islam, in fact. All three religions revere the same prophets. Jesus is considered to be one of the greatest prophets and teachers, Mary the mother of Jesus is a deeply honoured figure in Islam. There is a shrine to John the Baptist in the middle of one of the most important mosques in the world and every day hundreds of Christians and Muslims visit that shrine (inside that mosque also, which is a Sunni mosque, is a major Shi`a shrine of the Imam Hussein, and every day thousands of Shi`as enter that mosque as pilgrims to visit the shrine - the place is always swarming with Iranians, as a matter of fact). The importance of Judaism and Christianity and Jews and Christians to Islam is clear in the Qur'an, in the history of Islam, and in Mohammad's biography.
Second, the term and concept of infidel was originally applied not by the Muslims to Christians, but the other way around when the Crusaders referred to Muslims as infidels.
"Both Sunni and Shia hate Israeli's."
That is an imprecise, simplistic, and inaccurate generalization that does not begin to hold up under any kind of scrutiny.
"The US are Christian and Jews. The US wants to rule Iraq, using Shia puppets and Sunni puppets."
So, are you suggesting that if the US were not Christians and Jews, Iraqis would accept US domination? And how do you explain the fact that most Christian Iraqis have refused to accept what the US has done, and not a whole lot of Iraqi Jews are thrilled with it either?
"It's not gonna work, folks."
This is the one true statement in this post of yours. For sure it's not gonna work, but the reason has nothing whatever to do with the religion of either side. The reason has to do with the fact that human beings do not accept being invaded, bombed, killed, tortured, robbed of whatever normalcy their lives had, mistreated, in order that others can dominate them. It is that simple and that fundamentally human, not some silly "clash of civilizations" nonsense, or Muslim bigotry and xenophobia. It is just pure, basic, completely predictable human reaction. In short, Iraqis have reacted exactly as Americans would react to an attempt to shock and awe them into submission to a foreign power - any foreign power of any religious persuasion.
Posted by Shirin at May 5, 2008 06:26 PMIf the Iranians/Hezbullah are training or aiding or abetting any Iraqi militias it is the Badr militia, which is Al Hakim's militia and is therefore part of the Iraqi make-believe government. So, why would the Iraqi make-believe government have a problem with that?
And by the way, I think I saw more pictures of Hasan Nasrullah in Syria than I did in Lebanon - he is quite popular with some people in Syria.
Posted by Shirin at May 5, 2008 06:54 PM