A couple of weeks ago, Howard Dean said the most important candidate will be the one who loses the primary. If that is Clinton, there will be much more that she can do to heal the party than Obama can do. Let's hope that whoever loses, he/she takes the high road.

i disagree. dean has been wrong about quite a bit, this year. it's the winner- and leader of the party- who is responsible for the healing. clinton will have to do her part, but obama has to take the lead.

Obama will have to reach out to the Clinton voters to win us over on issues that were important to US, like health care. we don't owe him our vote.

As for McCain, I expect such a huge swing to the dems in Congress that many people may well vote for divided government (that Americans seem to prefer) to keep an eye on them. Its not inconceivable that people would vote for McCain.

Obama's big thing is the war and that is not the priority of all voters. Redirect dollars fro Iraq back home and the war occupation will dry up on its own.

It's the winner's job to offer a gracious hand up to the opponent who's been knocked down. I haven't seen that hand yet, and I doubt I ever will.

Amen Turkana!

I think this has allowed a mirror to be held up to some left leaning bloggers to see how silly they act towards republicans / conservatives. Of course for some it has just given them a new category of people to hate. More "others" as it were. Maybe the dems don't need "healing" as much as they need forgetting and/or refocusing of hatred / bitterness. Hillary/Obama will soon be removed and replaced with John McCain to defile and everyone on the left will fall in line. The conservatives appear to be waiting in theirs. Yippee.

I cannot speak for all Hillary supporters, especially since I move over from Edwards. I can speak for myself.

Supporting Obama is politically based and shouldn't be personality based. And there lies the problem.

Obama just announced through Donna Brazile that he intends to break up the FDR coalition. (That is, Democrats consist of minorities - Hispanics, Asians, AA and Jews.) Instead the "new party" will have AAs, urbanites, suburbanites and the young. (Does it mean that once you turn 40, for example, you'll be expelled from the party unless you live close to a major city?)

Did the Democrats discuss that issue in the campaign; not that I can recall. So, Obama is a foreign body penetrating the party trying to take it over. Such processes are called a hostile takeover or, in medicine, cancers.

Of course, Obama also is not for universal health care, for privatization of social security, for Reagan but against Bill Clinton.

What does it take for me to get into the car. For Obama to leave.

Turkana - great cover post and excellent point in the comments.

I am not passionate bout Mccain or Obama. I havent heard anything substantive come out of Obama's mouth that hanst been a repeat of Clinton's postions - so I will be looking for that from him - not some rah rah I didnt buy the first time round.

Democrats have not reversed the tax cuts and thye have not ended the war - in fact, they backed the "surge". The also didnt block the appointment of Bush's picks for the Supreme Court.

So telling me i should just vote for more of the same doesnt cut it. Clinton is still fighting the GOP - let me know when Obama starts.

"If the past year has taught us anything, it is that we can't expect much leadership from the ostensible leaders of this Democratic Congress. And ...he certainly would be paradigmatically different than the extremism that is Bush, and that would be McCain."

Therein lies the rub. Because Obama would not be any different from those Congressional leaders who have shown zero leadership. And that's why Clintonites won't support him. Obama can't "win us over" by appealing on the issues, because he's already shown quite clearly where he stands on all those issues. He's dogwhistled Social Security, voted for tort reform, caved on energy, tanked on women's rights, surrendered on universal health care, the list goes on forever.

Whatever HRC's faults (and yes, I'm aware the DLC casts a shadow over her and I know Mark Penn works for a PR firm that advertised its union bashing), we believe that she genuinely supports the working man and woman of this country and that she did not suddenly become so overnight, as the MSM would have us believe. One needs only look at her record of accomplishments over the last dozen years.

We also believe that Obama does not care for the working man and woman. He is every bit the triangulator that Bill Clinton was--the difference being that Clinton was forced into that position by a gutless Congress and Obama chose to be so, despite the 06 elections. He has praised the ideas of Reagan, and this is not a peccadillo taken out of context, because he has put his money where his mouth his: ensconcing as his economic brain trust a train of libertarian pro-marketeers, like Cutler,Liebman, and Goolsbee. These are not accidents, they are choices.

Similarly, the brouhahas over his associations with fringe characters--Wright, Rezko, and Ayers-- are significant not only because they reveal a politician who will unabashedly choose anyone who will help him with his rise, but because they reveal a politician with nothing inside, devoid not just of judgment, character, and integrity, but of a firm belief system to guide him personally and, more important for us, politically. These associations were not accidents, either, they were choices.

As for the Supreme Court issue, it is not to be dismissed so lightly--Obama came very close to voting for Roberts because he admired "his intellect" and was only stopped by his aide at the last minute because of its impact on his presidential run. This is the extent of his commitment to liberal values. And the fact that he hasn't taken this bit of history down from his website shows that it, too, is no accident.

Maybe we could forgive Obama his dirty campaign tactics, the fact that he has forever tarnished the legacy of the first Clinton presidency and wielded mysogyny so cavalierly throughout the campaign, but we can't forgive him for who he is. And he's not a liberal. He's not a "progressive". He's not a fighter. He's not a leader. I'd say, "just look at his record", but there isn't one. So we're left with "just words"--and those words are not very pretty.

To the victor go the spoils. And the headaches of leadership. I agree that Sen. Obama needs to reach out. I'm not looking for an opportunity to slap his hand away, but I'm not motivated by the snarling and shouting of "get in line!" that mostly comes from his supporters.

"One needs only look at her record of accomplishments over the last dozen years." yes, lets look at them. Do you have a list? And don't leave off voting for the AUMF. Come on...gimme the list.

The Obama supporters on Daily Kos are like the most extreme sort of Jesus Freaks. They expect not only that you'll vote with them (which I absolutely will) but want an apology and to rub Clinton supporters noses in their likely defeat. They are so babyish, whining, "I know I won, but I STILL want to complain, and I'm STILL mad that your candidate had the nerve to run against our precious Obama." If you don't think the exact same way they do, they are furious, and they certainly act as if they don't WANT Clinton supporters' votes unless they are properly reeducated. It is an extremely unattractive attitude. I am embarrassed to tell you how much I have supported DKos in the past. Again, I will support the Democratic nominee, but I am sickened by the asses we have in our party!!

See!

It's only been two days and already people are coming together!

I can feel the love.

Can you?

Turkana states:

Clinton had electability problems, but anyone who believes Obama doesn't is delusional. And discussing the demographic aspect of that is not racist, it's factual. Reality-based. A long lost concept, in the shrillosphere.

Speaking of facts, perhaps the demographics are not as dire for Obama as Hillary supporters are attempting to scare us from:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107110/Obamas-Support-Similar-Kerrys-2004.aspx

And I really can't see a very good excuse for her to continue discussing this "demographic" with incendiary language as she said yesterday:

"working, hard-working Americans, white Americans"

The writing is on the wall, and yet Clinton continues to divide our Democratic base in this manner away from our likely party nominee. That, I'm afraid is not only continuing to play race-based politics outright, but it's also plain stupid and self-destructive to our party at this point.

And those Obama supporters who have paroxysms of hysterical shrill every time the Clintons or their surrogates take a tough shot- or even every time a tough shot is invented or promoted or post-parsed into being by the magical prestidigitational powers of pathological liars- might as well just spend the next several months buried in tabloid magazines, avoid all blogs and news media, and ignore television altogether, because when the GOP 527s take aim at Obama it will be as ugly and vicious as anything any of us have ever seen. And some of you aren't prepared for it. But Obama and the professionals around him had better be

Do you honestly believe it wouldn't be any different, if not even more vitriolic towards Hillary if she won the nomination? Her disapproval ratings have consistently been higher nationwide versus Obama, plus the hatred of the Clintons by the Noise Machine is immeasurable.

No one can truly prepare well for the Rovian attack dogs, and you'd be kidding yourself to think Hillary would have fared any better. But I will say that both candidates seemingly have learned from the mistakes of 2004 and swing back against the smears well.

Obama's most passionate supporters need to understand that many passionate Clinton supporters have valid reasons for their anger- both at the Obama campaign, and even more so at you. If Obama is going to beat McCain, both he and his supporters are going to have to figure out a way to be political healers. It won't be easy, but failing to succeed at it will mean failure in November.

As I've stated in other posts, the onus to heal does not and should not be put squarely on the shoulders of Obama and his supporters. Do the Hillary supporters really need to be persuaded of the simple fact that McCain represents a 3rd term of Bush and the neocon agenda, and that it's infinitely better to hold your nose and put a check mark by any Democratic candidate, yes even Obama, over that GOP turd? Good grief that shouldn't even be an argument.

Love baby!

Love!

yeah snark, I'm getting goose bumps. It's truly joyful.

That photo you have below of McCain in the armpit of George Bush:

If they can "heal", then Obama and Hillary can too.

Obama will have to reach out to the Clinton voters to win us over on issues that were important to US, like health care. we don't owe him our vote

You owe AMERICA your vote. America cannot pull itself out of its current self-destructive spiral under a Republican administration.

Quite frankly, the fat lady has yet to sing. Whether Obama goes forward with his plan to on May 20th declare victory - before he even has the needed delegates - makes not a whit of difference. It is not over yet. Yes, Clinton most assuredly is down. But she is not out. And until she SAYS she is out, Obama supporters only make it worse with their demands that Clinton supporters move over to him. I live in Oregon and our primary is not over yet. I would bet the people of WV, KY, SD, MT, and PR would also have some choice words for Obama's continued campaign to stop the primaries and coronate him. It isn't coronation time yet. We have months before the convention. And let us not forget that is months more for the VRWC to roll out Obama's dirty laundry.

Another thing to think about: this election cycle, as none I've ever seen in my 55 years, have brought out the worse kind of hatred and misogyny I've ever seen. And NOT from republicans, but from democrats. Don't make the mistake of thinking all is going to be forgiven when all is said and done. You should be noticing that every time we have a primary, the exit polls show an ever higher number of Clinton supporters who say they will never vote for Obama. Some will. But I wouldn't bet the farm that enough of them will to defeat McCain.

Something else to mull over: the wingnuts may be craven, but they have never been stupid about elections. They have been paying attention very closely to what is going on. And you can bet your bottom dollar that McCain will especially be going after the working class voters, latinos, and women that Obama has spurned and insulted at ever turn. That would only be good politics.

we don't have to worry about McCain appointing Supreme Court justices, because the Democratic Congress will prevent their being confirmed

I don't know who's making this argument (and I don't particularly want to) but I think whoever it is has forgotten that if he's not in the White House, Senator Obama will be sitting on the Judiciary Committee, where he has shown less than fervent zeal about stopping the last two horrible nominees, with Senator Biden, who actually seems to prefer them.

We're one sick old judge from jumping back to the imaginary pre-enlightenment world the Federalist Society dreams about. This is not a time to play games.

I commented about this on Crooks and Liars.

I am a Black Latina voter from Florida. I've been a Democrat all my life, and have voted in 4 presidential elections (Clinton 92, Clinton 96, Gore 2000, Kerry 2004) as well as support all Democratic candidates down the line.

I WILL NOT SUPPORT OBAMA:

1) My state was denied a re-vote from the Obama camp and still refuse to count my vote. If it doesn't count now, then it certainly won't matter in the GE.

2) No Universal Health Care

3) No repeal of "No Child Left Behind"

4) Does not have a progressive energy policy (compared to Clinton & Edwards) - and Excelon Nuclear Energy (an Obama major supporter/David Axelrod client) IS NOT progressive policy.

5) Obama is a media-created, inexperienced hack with the most mediocre accomplishments ever to run for a presidential candidate, even George W. Bush's resume looks better than Obama's (at least he was governor of Texas.)

6) The most heinous manipulation of media chauvanists and frat boy comradery could have been stopped if he would have made a plea to end the hatred among his followers. But he didn't because it went to his advantage.

7) If I lived through 8 years of Dubya, I can stand 4 more years of McSame. But Obama? At least McSame has more experience.

Look, I think it would be completely illegitimate for Hillary to pull off the nomination in the fashion she envisions.

But I would still vote for her in November. The stakes are far, far too high to do anything else.

Supporters of both camps need to reconcile themselves to that necessity as early as possible.

Julia, are you saying it is safer to have Obama in the white house than it is in the judiciary?

Now that is a new one:

"save the supreme court from Obama : vote Obama!"

Obama the uniter must heal the party and bring people together. If he can't do that, his campaign has been a lie.

Obama's most passionate supporters need to understand that many passionate Clinton supporters have valid reasons for their anger- both at the Obama campaign, and even more so at you.

Please, give me a break! Has she quit yet? Will her continuing on, further damage the Democratic Party?

Let's have Hillary drop out first, then we'll talk.

And dj is right! You owe AMERICA your vote. If not, you deserve the McSame AMERICA.

I just got finished watching CNN, made me puke about how sweet they were on McShame... sickening!!

misteropus,

always and ever the stereotype.

shelly,

i completely agree.

There are 8 people in my family and not one of us will vote in the general election if Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee. My daughter who is 20 voted for Obama in NY and regrets it very much.

We plan to stay home in November.

The damage is done.

"Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? its alright we told you what to dream."

Dems have to face the fact that Obama is untested--he beat Alan Keyes for his Senate seat 3 years ago (how easy is that?). Hillary has had her underwear drawers riffled through by Ken Starr's goons, has been a senator for 9 years and the media hate her. I fear that Obama is the McGovern/Dukakis of this election, and though I will vote for him, by the time the Rethugs and the "fair and balanced" crowd get through with him, we'll be looking at that cadaver McOld taking us back to the 18th century.

does the whole McOld tag offend / drive away the AARP crowd? speaking of FDR up there...

I believe Obama is such a fatally flawed candidate that he has virtually no chance of defeating John McCain anyway. In the campaign thus far, despite sycophantic press coverage and an overwhelming financial advantage, he has actually lost support among Democratic voters while at the same accumulating a lot of nasty baggage. I don't see how it's going to get any better when the Republicans take the gloves off.

It would be nice if Obama reached out to Clinton supporters, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Just don't ask me to swoon over him. (That's not mandatory yet,
is it?)

Obama, Donna Brazile and the Obama camp know they cannot make the case for middle class voters, so they are pushing the theory that a new coalition has emerged that will be the Democratic party.

Good luck on that one. The middle class isn't going away, it votes, and it would vote for Clinton over McCain. It will not vote for Obama.

Plus there is a league of woman voters out there like me that will in no way shape or form vote for the guy - and the more he tries to 'make nice' the more I say forget it - as one blogger said - we've been assaulted. Saying I'm sorry isn't going to hack it.

Don't vote Obama! Write in Mama!

In all seriousness as an independent I really think that no one should vote straight party line. Personally I think that this primary race has shown how people really feel about each other in the so called democratic coalition.

Ever since 1980 at least (maybe you could count 1972) many folks have voted against their bread and butter interests for various identity issues instead. If the most of Hillary's supporters either vote for McCain or stay away from the polls it might be a good thing, maybe its' time for the part to split again.

Frankly I don't care who the democrats pick, what I would like is a viable third party that will represent my progressive views and will actually fight for them aggresively.

I don't really expect that from the democrats no matter if the have Obama or Hillary on the top of their ticket. Maybe the democrats will loose the election, and if they do well that will just confirm for me that they don't represent black folk like me, let alone a true progressive agenda. If the democratic nominee looses the election I won't weep or feel bad I will just hope and work very hard for a party split so that the centrist democrats can go their way and progressive can make their own path.

Again the nomination race has shown me that there are people I would rather not have on my side.

In case anyone missed it on an earlier thread, tenacitus is a right wing troll pretending to be independent, and yesterday, pretended to be a Clinton supporter. He also has made borderline racist comments and shouldn't be trusted.

The AARP folks who I know (most of my friends) think it's nuts for McCain, who will be 72 if he is elected, to run for one of the most exhausting jobs in the world. Knowing the infirmities suffered by those "of a certain age", they are concerned that his physical and mental condition cannot withstand such a grueling job for the duration.

Koshembos, get off that the Brazile schitck. You know she didn't say anything of the sort.

That is the kind of stuff that we have to put up with still. It's stupid!

Hillary is going to have to have her people come over and Obama will have to reach out. It's pretty simple... it's going to take a concerted effort.

and if they do well that will just confirm for me that they don't represent black folk like me,

Gee, fuckwad, just yesterday, you said you were a white guy.

ya cant just throw a switch, Turkana. You can do it as you have no passion, as you said. But there are people who have passion that is based on genuine conviction. And sincer conviction doesnt spin on a dime.

misteropus,

always and ever the stereotype.

I'm not exactly sure where I created a stereotype. If you are referring to the quote from Hillary, then perhaps an explanation as to why she said that by your camp would be best.

Seriously, Turkana, how do you expect us to hold out an olive branch when Hillary takes a pee on it by continuing this race further and discussing demographic/racial divides that could potentially hurt our party's nominee come November, not to mention the depiction she used?

BTW, Obama spoke very highly of Hillary today. I'm wondering if you might have seen it.

From Cognitive Dissonance:

And until she SAYS she is out, Obama supporters only make it worse with their demands that Clinton supporters move over to him.

Moreover, every time Obama supporters do this, Hillary brings out the angry old ladies (me included).

What is it about Obama supporters, do they havesome learning disabilities? Or is it just selfcontrol issues?

As CognitiveDissonance pointed out above, it ain't over yet. Hillary can and probably *will* win the popular vote, at which point the superdelegates, one will hope, can think on things like momentum and whether an Obama nomination or a Hillary nomination will cause a greater exodus of people from the democratic party, complete with ruminations on a MUCH greater potential defection of Hillary voters in swing and blue states, whereas the states most affected by Obama supporters leaving won't be won anyway.

Desert Dog and SM covered most of my reasons for differing from you on whether there *is* a substantial difference between Obama and Hillary (and given your concern for the environment, I'm still shocked you haven't made more of her preference for solar over his for nuclear/clean coal)(if you doubt whether solar can do it alone, please check out the issue of Scientific American from a couple of months ago that detailed exactly how it could, and it didn't even cover that solar/wind can also generate a significant amount from non-central sources, thus empowering individual consumers and leaving things open to more competing small businesses and less centralization of energy control; and on the off chance you haven't read it Helen Caldicott's Why Nuclear Power is Not the Answer is worth a look if you think nuclear is a good option)

And while the supers and the rest of the dems mostly probably won't think about issues such as those in the following link, because if they really cared we wouldn't be in this position, the following link to violet socks at reclusive leftist contains a very moral argument for not voting for Obama (one among many for ditching the democrats or getting rid of damn near all the leadership, at this point):

http://hillarysvoice.reclusiveleftist.com/2008/05/07/why-i-will-not-vote-for-obama-even-if-hes-the-nominee-and-why-you-shouldnt-either/

Considering that the Obama supporters (or at least the ones who post on blogs) have spent several months saying to Clinton supporters "We don't need your vote", it can hardly be surprising that Clinton supporters are not fond of the idea of voting for Obama. And get this clearly - In the GE Democrats are not required to vote Democratic, nor are Republicans required to vote Republican. All must vote for the candidate who will be best for the country. (Note to the zealots on all sides: it is irrelevant that you "know" who the best candidate is. Other people have other opinions, and their opinions are just as valid as yours. You must convince them of the rightness of your opinion. "Why are you too stupid to see the obvious" doesn't cut it.)

My grandma is one of these people that says she won't vote for Obama (unless he puts Hillary as the VP).

I've been disgusted by many aspects of Obama's campaign, but I don't see the logic of not voting for him in the GE. We all know that McCain would be a bad President, but Obama may end up being a very good President.

That photo you have below of McCain in the armpit of George Bush:

If they can "heal", then Obama and Hillary can too.

Obama's endorsing her for the nomination, like Shrub endorsed McCain? Yeah, that would help the healing. ;-)

Those Clinton supporters who have started to rationalize that life under McCain might not be all that bad will be joined on November 5th by the Obama supporters who will...for the first time... realize that Barry had no chance of winning. So, once again, we'll all be one big, happy, losing family of malcontents.

mojave wolf,

you're right in that ain't over yet, but it is a longshot that she will win the popular vote. it's not probable. she's down by 526K right now (counting the caucus states and FL) and would need to make it up with WV, KY, OR, and PR. That's possible, but probably won't happen.

For me, it's not about the candidates - I'm no Hillary lover or Obama lover. And they're not that different policy-wise despite what the shrill partisans for each say.

No, for me, it has been about the process. And the process that Obama and his campaign and his supporters chose has been ugly and sickening to this lifelong democrat - the constant racism charges, the thuggery at caucus sites, the sexism, the entitlement, the bullying your way to the top, the exposing of outright contempt that so many black people really feel towards whites and Latinos, the disenfranchisement of voters, the list goes on and on and on.

I would never vote to be part of that. It's immoral to me.

Yes, for one to follow, someone must Lead and it's up to all of us as individuals whom we choose to follow. Obama is not qualified and he may also be too fragile to be President. I still won't be following if he is the nominee.

Now it's time to finish the Primaries and then on to the Convention!"

Hillary '08

http://www.contrariancommentary.com/community/Home/tabid/36/mid/363/newsid363/207/Default.aspx

Oh crap, I have to once again distinquish myself from the other Judith. This is the old Judith. I will use JudithOne to separate my comments from the new Judith.

Turkana, your post was condescending. If you want the Democratic Party to win the Presidential election, then don't go around insulting potential voters. There is a reason the democratic voters are divided. There are significant differences between the two candidates. Obama represents the neoliberal/liberterian policies: privatization of social security, continuation of the Iraq war (listen to Samantha Power), the rejection of universal health care. You have poor analytical abilities if you can't see the policy differences between Obama and Clinton.

"You owe AMERICA your vote."

dj Moonbat, great slogan.

Rove must be rubbing his grubby little fat hands and laughing his ass off. He couldn't have done a better job of dividing our Party. The bottom line is if we cannot unite, then the enemy has won.

In the end, if Obama and Clinton do not show a united front, then it was power and ambition, and not the welfare of the Country, that was always at stake.

I suggest Obama supporters and others who have not descended into madness to leave this blog. It pains me to say it, but whats the point?

From Turkanas snide dripping with contempt screed that makes a mockery of the title, to the complete insanity of most of the commenter's, why settle for the abuse? I hung out at a blog today where actual issues got discussed. Everything from intelligent discussions about feminist issues and history, to hilarious foibles about Republican misdeeds, it was wonderful. I felt like I was talking to sane people for a change.

This is madness, its obvious that supporters of the Democratic Nominee are not welcome here.

Hillary's coordinated statements about how negros need to go back to the 3/5 scenario based on a survey done before the primary make it clear what road she is on. Obama will be magnanimous as usual, and these damaged people will twist it into something ugly. You know they will. Why subject yourself to it? Your better than that. I don't know if Steve is trying to do something behind the scenes but it is not working.
I'm sure paradox and Cal pol know what will happen if they try to front page. Have you seen them even try? It would be a nonstop hate-fest.

It is not up to Turkana to decide who needs to apologize to who. If it is desired to have and echo chamber in here like my DD and No Quater, then let them have it.

Posts filled with nothing but the same bitter hate, post after post. Isn't that something to look forward too.

There are some very articulate commenter's here that are wasting their ability. I can assure you you would be appreciated. LGM, BJ, Hullabaloo, there are plenty of medium size blogs or even smaller where you could make a difference. This place is too far gone. Where you could have a debate that at least tries to adhere to simple high school debating rules. Where the goalposts aren't always being moved, where the arguments aren't circular, and where people might actually concede a point on the truth of it. Truth is the innocent bystander that got run over a long time ago in here.

You are not running away, your letting them have what they so desperately seem to need. A place full of fellow travelers who think just like them.
Who are we to deny them that?

Its time to write it off, and its time to write them off and go on. I know plenty of disgusted ex-Republicans who will come over to The Democratic Nominee in Texas, I talk to them every day. The independents don't have a dog in the hunt, and don't care about all this. They will vote for The Democratic Nominee

This primary has already shown that the new will replace the old. Lets let em go and move on.

I feel for Steve, but he let it happen. We could always check in from time to time to see if we are welcome back, but until these people can work out their issues don't subject yourself to anymore of their abuse.

Sometimes to let an addict get over their addiction, you have to let them fall. To bad it will probably mean the end of this blog as it once was, but that is a choice they made and continue to make.

If you look at the ratio of (H) vs (O) on this thread, you will see that process is already underway. Sad, but life goes on and important things are afoot. Too important to waste time in this insanity where there is nothing to be accomplished.

OMG!! Are there only a few here that understand the seriousness of this next election? After reading some of the comments, you would think that this election was about hurt feelings and vendettas.

rjarnold -- I know there are different ways to count the popular vote total and it's been a while since I did the math, and unlike yours my math included Michigan (w/me giving him an estimated share of the uncommitteds that reflected what I believed to be how he and Edwards would have divvied that up), but unless the media drumbeat of "she can't win" drives down her numbers and his up in a huge way (an admitted possibility but one I'm hoping won't be too great), she should pick up very large margins in Ky, WV and PR, and I'm expecting Oregon to be w/in a few % points either way, again hoping that media coverage post-Indy/NC won't devastate her turn-out.

When I did do the math before, it was pre-Penn and I was actually expecting something not that different than what happened in NC/Indy, #'s wise. The reason for the huge letdown this week was all the polls showing the gap closing the week before the election, then Indiana going down to the wire (it was closer than I expected, by about 5% points, but NC was closer than I previously expected, too, as the demographics there were the same as VA -- I thought she'd get it down to around 20%, so I'm guessing the previous #'s I used--which I borrowed from somewhere else--I think Chris Bowers?--as far as totals and then slightly twigged for my own predictions.

So, maybe I'm being over-optimistic, but *if* she can keep the previously projected win margins in KY/WV/PR, either win or lose narrowly in Oregon, and not lose too horribly in SD/Montana, I think she has a good shot at the popular vote. I won't say "probably" again because I can't predict the affect of the "she has lost now" stuff on voters, but I don't think it's that long a shot.

As for logic of not voting for him in the general, check the link on my previous post -- it's not only whether he's more likely to be a better president than McCain in a lot of ways, but validating the type of campaign that he's run. And even that isn't all--those of us who think he's likely to have a very pro-corporate, laissez faire economic agenda think he will be able to get bad stuff done easier than McCain(see the giant mistake Bill Clinton made w/telecom dereg) and we don't really trust him on the supreme court much(see previous posts).

If you think it will be a horror movie if all the Hillary supporters bail on him, call it The Revenge of Alice Palmer.

"..and if they do well that will just confirm for me that they don't represent black folk like me,"

"Gee, fuckwad, just yesterday, you said you were a white guy."

Iamcoyote, I gotta love you. You never miss calling it each and everytime. You must have a good memory, because I could never remember what someone said yesterday, much less today. I'm one of those AARP members.

working, hard-working Americans, white Americans

Can I just say that if Clinton had not added "white Americans" people would be screaming racism because they'd say "hey, she says she's getting hard-working Americans, but she's not getting the black vote. She must think black people aren't hard-working!" She was clarifying that she's getting (only) white working people, not all working people. Sheesh.

Snark,

Sadly, I'm in agreement. I came back here after I've been gone from occasional posting for probably a year or so, and it's unfortunate to see what has occurred here as of late. I am truly sorry that the hatred and vitriol runs so deep against the likely Democratic nominee, and despite my efforts not only are the same anti-Obama talking points being pushed over and over, but I've allowed my own emotions to bite back against some whom I believed were a little disillusioned.

I do hope that our party can come together, but judging by the emotions here there's still a lot of hurt and anger that's getting in the way. That will likely continue for awhile, but hopefully soon even the most ardent Hillary supporters will come to grips with the idea that voting for McCain or abstaining for voting for their party's nominee does this country much, much worse.

So best of luck to you all, and hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we will all come together to fight the GOP machine in the very near future. Despite our sincere differences of opinion, I do wish you all the best.

Opus

Sharpton just told Hillary to exit the stage saying that the show is over. That is the kind of class we have come to expect from Obama and his supporters.

The Democratic party is being taken over by far-left nuts. There is no room for pragmatic, middle of the road Democrats in the party.

We are in the process of leaving this party. And the Obama wing of the party will go down to historic defeat this fall losing the white house and the congress. It has to stay in political wilderness for a while and learn its lesson. Only then some sanity will return to this party.

Bill Clinton tried his best to teach these lessons to the party. The current crop of Obama nuts don't want anything to do with it. Well! suit yourself. You will learn life's lessons the hard way.

thank you, Judith -- I would appreciate it. I respected your wish here and on Digby where you asked me to not post with my own name as you had been on both sites first. I did so. You then posted as Judith on another board where I had been first and ignored 3 requests I made of you not to. Respect and courtesy work both ways.

Judith, I don't think it's fair you have to change your name, but thanks - I expect now that this mess is close to over we'll be seeing more of you here if you get the chance. Hope your mom's okay, SoS says his mom is on the mend. Yay!

hey snarky shark - he aint got the numbers so he AIN"T THE NOMINEE.

whats yer hurry - afraid of counting the next primaries?

"You owe AMERICA your vote."

I am feeling the love, nice reach out. I owe shit. I got drafted and served during Viet Nam. I paid my dues.

Hillary's coordinated statements about how negros need to go back to the 3/5 scenario based on a survey done before the primary make it clear what road she is on

She never did any such thing and you know it.

Thank you, though, for deciding to be the "My way or the high way" bad sport around here. If you're this much of a jerk in victory, I'm glad you won't be here when you're inevitably defeated. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I agree iamcoyote - Judith can use her name - she was here first and I immediately agreed for two sites when she asked. I'd just like the same courtesy and I didnt get it and I think that is very rude. Hence my visit here today.

So Judith - extend the same manners you request, please. Thanks.

g'night.

I am feeling the love, nice reach out. I owe shit. I got drafted and served during Viet Nam. I paid my dues.

Hey, if a bunch of people decide that the only way to punish Obama for perceived slights is to plunge America into a second Gilded Age chock full of illegal abortions, that's their business.

SnarkyShark, I share some of what you are saying. My first love is TLC, as I stumbled upon this site several years ago. To me it has been the best site for discussions and information. I have learned so much from the bright and educated people here. Having said that, I hope we can return to that TLC.

SnarkyShark, I share some of what you are saying. My first love is TLC, as I stumbled upon this site several years ago. To me it has been the best site for discussions and information. I have learned so much from the bright and educated people here. Having said that, I hope we can return to that TLC.

will use JudithOne to separate my comments from the new Judith.
Posted by Judith at May 8, 2008 04:26 PM

WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO WITH "old judith"

"thank you, Judith -- I would appreciate it. I respected your wish here and on Digby where you asked me to not post with my own name as you had been on both sites first. I did so. You then posted as Judith on another board where I had been first and ignored 3 requests I made of you not to. Respect and courtesy work both ways."

Young Judith, that was not me. I post nowhere except here at TLC. Haven't time.

I thought said you also post at Digby. I backed off both sites in respect for you.

If I am incorrect and that was not you on the third board, then please excuse me.

Please keep your posting name as it was. I was making a point, not trying to wreck this nice board.

Bye.

As an Edwards supported who went to Clinton when he dropped out, I'll be frank - I don't like Obama. I don't have to vote for him. And considering how assholeish the Obama supporters are, and how Obama has yet to do anything to win my respect, I can just piss-away my vote on a Green candidate.

I'm so fucking sick of this Corporate Congress I don't see all that much difference between the Dems and the Republicans besides the Republicans are slightly bigger assholes as they destroy our country. But it's not like the spineless Dems haven't done their damage as well.

We've got a literal criminal sitting in the White house and our already dodgy country has officially jumped the shark. Blech. We don't have a government. We have a bunch of losers, criminals and enablers in suits.

young Judith, sorry about the name thing, I hope you'll come and play with us again. Our Judith isn't a rude person! I am, some might say, but Judith's not!

I hope we can return to that TLC.

Probably not, its too far gone. Look at the posts after mine. Thats where its at now, and without any counterbalance, thats where it will always be.

What made me wake up and smell the coffee is all the commenter's that should have been here that aren't.

The exodus has begun, the patients rule the asylum.

Good luck to you if you plan on hanging around. I would love to see you at the new place. So much sanity, so many smart articulate people. You would love it.

Iamcoyote, I don't mind changing my name, but I do mind being accused of something I didn't do.

Mom is happy, safe and secure. We moved her into an Independent Living arrangement, and she is absolutely loving it. Thanks for asking. I didn't know that SoS's Mom was ill. Hope all is well with her now.

Yes, I'm back home and will be posting more after this election is over. I am so burnt out right now, and I am sick to death of the Hillary vs. Obama fight. I just can't understand why this had to end up in a bitter fight among supporters.

Yesterday I was just having fun, I take positions counter to what I say from time to time to get people going. After all yesterday Iamacoyote I admitted to trolling. I was only repeating things I've heard some Hillary supporters going because sometimes a flame war is fun in the way that watching Jerry Springer is.

However if all you can say is that I am fuckwad then I guess that is the way it goes.

SS said:

"There are some very articulate commenter's here that are wasting their ability. I can assure you you would be appreciated. LGM, BJ, Hullabaloo, there are plenty of medium size blogs or even smaller where you could make a difference. This place is too far gone... Truth is the innocent bystander that got run over a long time ago in here"

I couldn't have said it better!!
s a long-time reader and more recent Obama supporter, I felt that my 'mission' was to offer counterpoints to the jaundiced rhetoric and unprovoked attacks that was spewed by eriposte and Turkana.

Now that HILLARY HAS LOST, Obama certainly doesn't need me or the valiant others to defend, clarify, or advance his positions.

Left Coaster might survive if Turkana and eriposte would be exiled to wherever small-minded and self-serving SMALL TENT "Democrats" land in the "shrillosphere".

Until then Turkana and acolytes, vote for Obama, don't vote for Obama. It won't make a dime of difference. When OBAMA is the next PRESIDENT of these United States, you will still be petty wanabees.

The independents don't have a dog in the hunt, and don't care about all this. They will vote for The Democratic Nominee

Posted by SnarkyShark at May 8, 2008 04:53 PM

You're not very bright. I've voted for independent Presidential Candidates in the past.

Perot. Nader.

I see no reason to NOT vote Green or Independent. Because, unlike you apparently, I will protest vote instead of running along like a sheep.

Um, DJmoonbat, you really don't get it.
Obama has shown no devotion to any liberal principle whatsoever. If HE is elected, I would not be surprised to see Roe V. Wade overturned, and with his blessing.

"young Judith, sorry about the name thing, I hope you'll come and play with us again. Our Judith isn't a rude person! I am, some might say, but Judith's not!"

I've been known to leave a snide comment or two, ask Baggy. Iamcoyote, you just call it the way you see it. With millions of people posting, I'm not surprised that two people would have the same name.

Good luck to the sane. I am done, I will not risk my sanity for another second.

Feel free to ridicule at will, I will not respond.

Seven, it would have been nice if you would have got my back once or twice, but oh well.

Same to you Steve....good luck, you need it. I hope it works out, but I don't think it will.

Now its off to rip McKranky a new one.

Enjoy your echo chamber haters.

Judith, let's just say that I've got some logical issues with the idea that we can let McCain nominate Supreme Court justices to keep Obama out of the White House because we can count on Obama to be a firewall on the Judiciary Committee.

Not an Obama fan by a long, long stretch (largely because of how he responded to the Alito and Roberts nominations), but that's a completely insane argument. There is no question _at all_ that whatever we have to do to keep John McCain from getting unchecked executive power with a packed court behind him we have to do.

Because the Senate is not saving us, and they're treating it as an act of principle. We can't count on them, and we know it.

I keep saying this, but people died for rights that are going to pop like soap bubbles if they get one more seat on the Court. If I have to hold my nose until my fingers meet, I'm voting for whoever has the (D) after their name.

tfitz and opus,

charming as ever. you do your candidate well. people like me will vote for obama, but you're not doing anything to convince the wavering and the skeptical. you're driving them away. here's a clue: they're not inclined to care whether or not obama wins. their candidate has lost. they don't need you, you need them. you won't win without them. if you're too petty and ignorant to realize that, then you deserve what happens. obama deserves better. hopefully, he has the clue you lack.

Snarkyshark, I think you should hang around. I have always enjoyed your postings and I am sure others have also. Maybe once this fight is over, we can begin to fight the real enemy, the GOP.

julia and judith (at least i think it's judith):

agree completely with both of you, too.

Our Judith isn't a rude person! I am, some might say, but Judith's not!

We're all hidiously evil people... we're liberals!

Yeah Judith, Mom just back home from the hospital, about the 3rd time in 5 years with pneumonia. This was a close one. She ends up taking care of Dad, who has Alzheimer's and ignore's her own health. It's a struggle for me to haggle with her, so I called in family to help me.

Julie, I assume your comment was meant for young Judith. My head is spinning. That along with being burnt out is not good.

s a long-time reader and more recent Obama supporter, I felt that my 'mission' was to offer counterpoints to the jaundiced rhetoric and unprovoked attacks

You know, it creeps me out anytime someone is on a mission, unless it's a beer run.

Judith, no! Let SS go, it's for his own good!

yes, Julia's response was to my post above I think. Not sure I follow the logic but I sure follow the emotion. My issue is we seem to be following the title Democrat when I am not sure the definition is the same. I have to believe that it is before puling the lever for anyone other than Clinton.

iamcoyote - that was nice of you.

Judith - you are letting the name down if a little thing like a second Judith confuses you so much! And just how many Judith's can there possibly be on the internets anyway? I hated getting this old fashioned name when I was a kid and now I just love it. No, not Judy. Jud-ITH. the YOUNG Judith. Grr.

I will not vote for Senator Obama if he is the nominee of my party. I will vote for Senator McCain and with a fair amount of enthusiasm. Senator Clinton has every right to play out the primary season. I will re-register as soon as this primary campaign season is over. Peolis, Reid, and Dean are a profound embarassement to me. And that business with Florida and Michigan is insane and the party refuses to deal with it. I am a Clinton supporter and I admire and respect her and I wish her well. Obama will never, never get my vote and I profoundly dislike his wife.

Seven of Six, I am so terribly sorry about your Mom. We had the exact same situation with my Mom, who also took care of my Father who had Alzheimer's disease. It is so typical that the caretaker doesn't take care of themselves or their needs, and often are reluctant to ask for help.

Taking care of your Father is a 24/7 job with no breaks, as you know. If she doesn't take care of herself, she won't be able to take care of him, but sometimes it is hard to convince them of that fact. It is also emotionally exhausting as well as physical. I hope she continues to feel better and is well soon.

Have you contacted the Alzheimer's Association. They are absolutely great when it comes to helping the caretaker and their needs.

I just got back from visiting with friends who are Clinton voters. These two have spent many a HATE BUSH session with me over the last eight years. We all agree the Bush years have been criminal. I've not seen them since I voted for Obama, and they Clinton, in our primary. Today they were actually discussing voting for McCain, because Obama was such a horrid, vile candidate (if he is nominated). I wondered how two white ladies, 50ish, partners, could disregard eight years of Bush bashing and actually consider voting for McCain because they hate Obama more than Bush's surrogate. I have not seen the depth of the hatred, the vile campaign, the vile remarks they attribute to Obama towards Clinton. Something so bad, so deep that it would cause me to vote for a continuation of the Bush Administration. I thought, where is that hate coming from? I've seen it on these, and other pages, but for the first time in person...it was scary....Our friendship precluded me from delving into a discussion, but if they vote for McCain...we're done.

"And just how many Judith's can there possibly be on the internets anyway? I hated getting this old fashioned name when I was a kid and now I just love it. No, not Judy. Jud-ITH. the YOUNG Judith. Grr."

Young Judith, I am convinced that every girl born to a family in 1941 named their little baby girls 'Judith.' However, I am sure that most are known by Judy or Judie, or Judi. I hate my name, and I also go by Judith, not Judy (too cute). Ah, if not for Judy Garland.

i just hope you two judiths can straighten it out so we can keep it straightened out, because you're both interesting commenters!

You know, it creeps me out anytime someone is on a mission, unless it's a beer run.

or toilet paper.

I will not vote for Obama if he is the Democratic candidate. I have changed my registration to Independent after 23 years of voting in every state, local and federal election.

Note to those who feel the same. Change registration and vote for Democrats down ticket. Then you have a choice; McCain, write in Clinton or don't vote for president.

T2, you're really missing the boat.
Obama IS the Bush-surrogate. Well, not exactly, but he is the carbon copy of Bush 2000.
McCain? He's something else entirely.
But Obama? He's a phony, inexperienced, foot in mouth inarticulate product who is being foisted on the public by the corporate media much as Bush was in 2000.
NO THANKS>
Eight years of an incompetent President is enough.
McCain has terrible politics, but he might be compeent. Obama? Not competent, not qualified by a mile.

Hope that helps you understand why Obama's not getting the votes!!
Have a good one.

Turkanajudith, I spit my coke out on my computer screen on that one.

Isn't life complicated.

I thought the last election was the most important election of our lifetime. Where were all the new improved Democratic voters who sat that election out and have now jumped on the Obama bandwagon?
No matter how Obama supporters try, they cannot turn McCain into Bush. That would be the McCain that voted against the energy bill that Obama supported.
And playing the Supreme Court card doesn't hack it either. I don't think McCain will put on Alito/Thomas. He has too many friends in the Senate.
As a woman, I feel the leadership of the party and the left wing (air america, Kos, KO) have raped my candidate. They will have to fight the battle without me if O is the nominee.

Well, this site has become worthless...

yeah - funny as hell!

Judith is Judith as she ever was Judith and

I am the young Judith and all is right (or left) with the world.

Love, love, love.
Love, love, love.
Love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

(Lennon/McCartney)

Can ya feel it?

Everybody now...

I had a rant and then canned it. Which I've done several times in the last few months.

So, ditto, DJ. Ditto.

"You owe AMERICA your vote."

"I owe shit. I got drafted and served during Viet Nam. I paid my dues."

Me, there are others on this board who have also served in wars, i.e., Seven of Six, Pvt. Keepout, and Tempus, to name just a few. Ask Seven of Six, who has been fighting the system for years, which Party better serves veterans.

Judith, I was named after a friend of my Mom's who died very young. It is a name I have grown to respect - and I enjoy it's relative rarity.

Queen Judith was a warrior queen, baby.

with all the posts i've made about bush's abuse of the military, and mccain's refusal to support the new g.i. bill, i would hope no one would have any doubt about who supports the military, and who doesn't.

Idio and dj, yep, I think this thread is unraveling.

Turkana, Amen!

I have 4 brothers who served in the miltary -all volunteered. Thank you to those here who served.

I wondered how two white ladies, 50ish, partners, could disregard eight years of Bush bashing and actually consider voting for McCain because they hate Obama more than Bush's surrogate. I have not seen the depth of the hatred, the vile campaign, the vile remarks they attribute to Obama towards Clinton. Something so bad, so deep that it would cause me to vote for a continuation of the Bush Administration. I thought, where is that hate coming from?

What they're thinking: "How dare that uppity n----r steal what's rightfully Hillary's!"

If Obama loses this fall thanks to these fair-weather Democrats, DINOs and McSame Dogs, it's the end of the Democratic Party. So be it; all good things must come to an end. We'll just have to start over and build a true progressive alternative to the Republicans. I admit, it will be amusing to see people like these women try to build a real progressive party on the backs of hard working white Americans alone. Then again, there are plenty of racist, fundamentalist Anglo-Saxons in the Republican Party who are not Wall Street mavens. Maybe they'll flock to Hillary's banner in 2012.

USA! USA!

Okay, you be young hot Judith, and I will be hot old Judith. Hey Phidipides, your missing a chance for a great storyline here.

Nite all. I guess we have taken this about as far as it can go, thankfully.

okay- we have judith, judithone, and the young, hot judith? i'm getting very confused.

Turkana - I hope all Democrats are supporting the bill. It is the very least they could do.

Turkanajudith, hell I'm confused. Now who was I?

can I be sparticusjudith next? Love the togas.

Well, this site has become worthless...

Huh uh! These last several threads have been invaluable for a lot of people who needed to blow off steam, to regroup, to mourn, and yes, to gloat. It's only been two days since the last, pretty decisive primary, and everyone's coming to grips with what it means. Just last week, I said I'd never vote for Obama, but you know what? I will. Because my feelings don't matter anymore, all the past grievances, all the unfair accusations, none of it. What matters is that the Dems win. I know it, you know it, we'll all admit it to ourselves when we're ready. Right now, though, everyone has to get their ya-yas out, and TLC is a good forum to do it, because it's not so strictly moderated and most of us know each other enough to know after all's said and done, we're on the same side.

Though I think it's too early to ask anyone to pledge they'll vote for the other candidate in the GE right now, the question's been asked, and people feel the need to respond. Let 'em. It's catharsis, and nothing's binding. As of now, it's all out of our hands. What's not out of our hands is how we're gonna behave from here on in.

And dj, I, for one, have missed your "good griefs," (even the implied ones); it's really nice to see you again.

Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to have this conversation on the Internet, since the trolls and mobys are out in force. It is up to Barack Obama to remind everyone why they are Democrats and what is at stake for this election. I am confident he is up to the task, but it will take time. Barack Obama ought to be (and appears to be) saying positive things with respect to Senator Clinton and turning his fire on John McCain. I hope Senator Clinton will finish with a positive campaign, which will help us reunite as a Party.

iamcoyote - really nice post. Put a smile on my young face.

see ya.

As always, I guess I'll have to be the thread adult and get back to serious business.

I propose selling McCain electronic self stabbing Voo Doo Dolls to anyone who does not want 4 more years of Bush.

When placed near a TV or radio, every time the doll detects McCain uttering the phrase "my friend", a 4 inch hat pin is thrust into its tiny gop-nads.

He won't make it to November, my friends.

I'll order two right now, TIKI! It'll make a great Mother's Day gift!

Seven, it would have been nice if you would have got my back once or twice, but oh well.

Snarky Shark, I used to like your postings from before your hiatus. It seemed like you took some aggressive pills this time, you were really overly passionate about Obama.

While I agree with most of what you said, both snark and iamcoyote are friends. You were doing fine on your own. Don't let 'em get to you.

What goes around, comes around, does it not?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/bill-clinton-hi.html

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=27631

Fasten your seatbelts..should be an interesting few weeks.......

Since I first voted in 1968, my choice for the Democratic nomination has never been selected. Not even in 1972, when my first choice was Shirley Chisholm. Sometimes my first choice or somebody with politics I favor never even ran in the Democratic primaries.

But I was never so stupid, even when the candidate was Hubert Humphrey or Bill Clinton to abandon the party. When Democrats got elected, issues dear to my heart got the ax, it is true. Not a year went by in Carter's four and Clinton's eight in which there wasn't something they did to make me spit nails. And the party was and remains filled with people (in and out of office) who make me wince (anti-choice, anti-gay, weak on environment, and always, always, always partial to the imperialist vision of America, whether it's the liberal or neocon version).

When this campaign season begin, I knew I would do what I always do whoever wins the nomination: vote for her or him in November. I haven't changed my mind. And I won't change my mind when November comes around. The nominee will be far from perfect. S/he will be a politician. S/he will, if elected, compromise and triangulate and otherwise do what politicians do. Sometimes, s/he will do what I want, or come close to it. Other times, s/he will cause me to gnash my teeth, shake my head, cuss, and write angry screeds.

And, all the while I am doing so, I will know that the alternative, as has been the case in all the previous elections I've voted in would have been worse. For this I have the examples of those alternatives who did win: Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, Bush II.

So, all you Obamanicans who won't vote for Clinton, and all you Hillarites who won't vote for Obama, go right ahead and vote for McCain or cast a blank ballot or none at all. And call that principle if you like.

More like suicide.

Hey Moonbat, et al..because of creeps like you this vote goes to the darkside(McCain).

Iamcoyote, good post. Sometimes you do just have to play and be silly.

Meteor Blades, I agree completely with you. There's a time to take a hard line, and this isn't one of them.

Don't you dare call dj Moonbat a creep. He/she is one of the nicer people here.

Wow! When you've got people going after djMoonbat the shit is really getting deep.

do you people really stay up all night doing this?

People are running on raw emotion right now, snark. But it is kinda funny to see dj get it. It's like those comedy sketches where the butler hears a noise and opens the door only to get a pie in the face. Poor dj, he hates pie!

I tried to read the whole thing.

To Turkana: Whiner, heal thyself.

First step. Recognize that someone who uses racism for self-promotion is a racist. And someone who supports that person supports racism. After you get the log out of your eye, things will look brighter.

"JudithOne"

I do not OWE my vote to Obama.

You need to ask yourself two questions.

1. Does Obamba carry Ohio or PA. Answer NO. The under $50,000 group goes to McCain, not Obama.

2. Does Obama carry Florida? Answer NO. The OLD folks there go to McCain.

Clinton supporters at this point hold an advantage because without our support, Obama will lose in November. Make Obama come to us. Obama needs us more than we need him now. Let's see how he can unify the party that he has torn apart.

Take it from this Edwards supporter, for a time you Hillbots will be as pissed as pissed can be because the other candidate did things that you think caused your candidate to lose, that were dirty, that weren't fair or weren't as smart as your candidate. But take my word for it: under it all, we're just most pissed because our candidates lost. Tuck it up and behave yourselves. Do you want the kids to see what sore losers look like?

Julie, I wonder. Does being an ass work in your daily life? I mean, when you're at a meeting with your child's teacher do you say "Stupid fuck, my kid's got special needs, help him NOW!!" Does that work getting your child what he needs? Cos I can't see it working any more than your snotty little comment above. I'll tell you what, see what you can do about the attitude, and maybe we'll look more kindly on you in the future.

is this Julie one of the Judith's? I'm confused.

"JudithOne I do not OWE my vote to Obama."

Me, I never said you did. What I said was that you may want to look at which Party/candidate better serves veterans. I'm not sure how you got voting for Obama out of that.

I am simply Julie. I used to post in here some, but have pretty much stopped checking in since this became a Hillbot echo chamber. It's clear that there's a clique here, and non-Hillbots aren't welcome. Such a shame--it used to be a fun plce.

"is this Julie one of the Judith's? I'm confused."

T2, if you guys don't stop it, I am going to get confused, and we know what happens when a 66 year old woman gets confused.

I think I'll change my name to Playboy Judith. Thata confuse the hell out of them.

It's clear that there's a clique here, and non-Hillbots aren't welcome. Such a shame--it used to be a fun plce.

Well, you're welcome to join our clique, Julie, if you'll dump the "Hillbot" garbage. We're trying to get beyond that shit and make TLC a fun place again. But everyone's gotta help. SoS is an Obama supporter, and he's in. C'mon. We don't want to wait for the politicians to tell us when it's time to start healing, the only way TLC will heal is if we all pull together. It's gonna take a lot of self-control on all of our parts, but this is my home base, and I'm tired of fighting. How 'bout you?

Oooh, I like Playboy Judith! Or how 'bout Healer Judith?

Iamcoyote, your last post to Julie is so right on. You were right, it begins with us. I'm tired of the fighting, name calling, and general malfeasance.

We certainly have had our share of laughs on this blog over the years, and though at times we have had angry differences, we never forgot we are among friends. This is how you heal Julie.

Color me polyanna.

"What they're thinking: "How dare that uppity n----r steal what's rightfully Hillary's!""
__________________________

See-- this is exactly why so many people won't vote for Obama any longer. EVERYTHING is turned into a disgusting, vacuous, immature charge of racism.

It's completely ridiculous, not to mention false. How dare this person put these disgusting words into people's mouths? People have seen now what Obama and his surrogates represent - racial bullying in order to win - and they won't, and shouldn't, go along with it.

Just look at the ugly and divisive words from Bob in Pacifica upthread as well. Simply revolting.

I'll never ever vote for this 'movement'.

And I do hope snarkyshark keeps his word and never comes back.

Hey, Judith, Pollyanna saved the town...or something, didn't she? Anyhow, everyone was dancing and singing at the end and that was a good thing!

Aw, nonny! Never say never. I hoped Hillary would make it, but they're not going to let her. It sucks, I don't like it, I don't like Obama. But I'm gonna put my feelings on hold, because I hate McCain even worse. I just told my daughter yesterday that we do the shit we have to do, so we're able to do the shit we want to do. I know how you feel, take your time. When you're ready to come play again, we'll be here.

PS, I agree about SS, though. He's said some nasty sexist things to the women commenters here, and I'm in no mood to forgive that.

Koshembos,

You are way out there. Are you saying Obama is closer to Reagan than McCain is?

Obama is not for privatizing Social Security, he is in favor of the government taking a role in increasing access to health care (an important first step). I suppose you prefer McCain's stances on these issues and many others.

Get real.

Holy.Fuck.

Yesterday, after reading the entire "Grace" thread, it took everything that I had to not throw up.

I have since come to believe that the majority of the "I will never vote for Obama" people must be right wing troll plants because I cannot believe that Democrats would be so short-sighted.

In this thread alone I have read that Obama is too left wing, too centrist and too far to the right. [Porridge anyone?]

I have to believe that these are right wing trolls because I remember...Just eighteen months ago not a one of us cared about who the nominee was, we just all simply could not wait until 2008. All of us pledged to do whatever we could do to get a Democrat elected. We were going to fight to win both Houses and the Presidency and every down-ticket Dem from Sec of State to Dog Catcher.

I cannot believe that so many would set aside the desperateness of our current situation in exchange for a single person, no matter who that person is. In addition - the degree to which any of these fucking representatives do anything that we want them to is directly correlated to how involved we are in the process.

This is our government and we need to hold them accountable. If you do not like the nominee's (whoever it is) platform, then work to change it.

Also, Brazille and Sharpton are not part of, and do not speak for, the Obama campaign. WTF.

If anyone seriously believes that a President cannot "be that bad" (as in, McCain will be fine) then look at all of the damage that Bush has done over the last 7 years. And, that logic is flawed when your argument is that Obama would be so bad that McCain will be OK. Huh?

McCain is a scary old angry fuck and we are in dire straights with his old shaky finger on the button.

I get it, for those who really did fall in love with Hillary. She is an amazing person. She fights like hell. She has tremendous energy. I wish she would have been our nominee in 2004. I am truly sorry.

I am not your enemy. Obama is not your enemy. We can do anything if we come together and work for our government to follow the will of it people. We have the power and they only have the power that we allow them to have.

On another note...it really does not matter. I am so desperate for things to get different, but I have realized that no matter which Dem wins in November, I will be let down. It is going to take a long time to try to fix all of the crap that is damaged. A.Long.Time.

Even if the new President works to end the war immediately, it will take 1.5 to two years to get the troops home. National Health Care will take years to get passed and implemented and it is all contingent on the Congress. Regardless of which President and which plan gets put forward, the Congress will rewrite it and change it and then let's see if it gets passed and check out the amendments and years to implement. It will not have any real affect on any of our lives for years.

I am desperate and I am desperate now. There are certain things that I need to change in my life right now, and I do not have years to wait...any of these candidates will "let me down" because I do not have the time. Years to change the tax code will not put money in my pocket by next year's filing.

I get how desperate that we are. Hillary or Obama - we will be disappointed because this shit takes time. However, none of it will even have an opportunity to be implemented unless we get a Democratic Presidency and Congress.

When people call into his show ranting about Hillary or Obama, Thom Hartmann asks them to name a couple of good things about the other candidate (the one that they do not support). I think that this is a good excercise. There are good qualities in each of them...though as humans, I guess it is easier to focus on the bad.

There is no damage that Rove & CO could do that is worse than what we have the potential to do to each other. Every single vote does count. I agree with dj, it is not a right, it is a duty.

I love my Country and my kid and his future more than I could ever love any single candidate.

(This one will not be deleted idio, though I have done that many a time as well. I am tired into the center of my bones. This shit has got to stop.)

"Hey, Judith, Pollyanna saved the town...or something, didn't she? Anyhow, everyone was dancing and singing at the end and that was a good thing!"

and the blue bird of happiness came down and spread sunshine throughout the valley.

Anjha, join the club.

You may have hit on something. Perhaps some of these so-called Democrats are really Republicans trying to get people to not vote. Something to consider.

Anjha, I understand the frustration, and these threads are a good place to get it out. The anger and despair won't go away overnight, it's been building for months now. I'm still gonna jump on people who make sexist and racist remarks, but I did that before this primary and luckily, it wasn't that often. Hopefully, we'll all get back to where we were, and forgive as we hope others will forgive us. There are very few who can say they didn't lash out at some point during these last few months, I'm sure.

I'm going to try to avoid the sites that make me angry and try to ignore some of the sillier stuff, and try to concentrate on the Republicans. They're the ones with the most investment in keeping us divided. Why give them any more ammo? It'll be tough, but worth it, cos I really like those bluebirds and sunshine!

Julie, I wonder. Does being an ass work in your daily life? I mean, when you're at a meeting with your child's teacher do you say "Stupid fuck, my kid's got special needs, help him NOW!!" Does that work getting your child what he needs? Cos I can't see it working any more than your snotty little comment above. I'll tell you what, see what you can do about the attitude, and maybe we'll look more kindly on you in the future.

If this is an example of "healing", then I guess coyote is looking to replace Dr. Mengele.

Heehee - Good one, Julie. But you were being a turd with the "Hillbot" stuff. Anyhow, when you're ready to get over your anger, we'll be ready to play again!

Dr Mengele?
How embarrassing.

iamcoyote - once again I am impressed with your good humor - but, yikes!

JudithOne - who is posting as just plain "Judith" now? - it isnt me.

Well, actually, coyote, calling the ...more passionate...Hillary supporters Hillbots was a lot kinder than what I was thinking about calling them, which was histrionic. But rest assured, I also call the rude, shit-throwing Obama supporters Obamabots. That has a bit of rhythm to it, doesn't it? Edwards wasn't in the race long enough for us to attach a "bot" to his name.

BTW, I wasn't angry. I gather you were, though. Sorry. The point I was trying to make (apparently not very well) is that blaming the opponent for your own candidate's loss isn't being intellectually honest. If your candidate lost, it's because more people liked the other one. It's that simple, so there's no sense in turning it into a blame-fest. Sure, it sucks to feel strongly about your person's loss. But, give it some time to cool down. Is there a comparable political term for "road rage"? Because that's what some of these comments here look like lately.

Whatever HRC's faults (and yes, I'm aware the DLC casts a shadow over her and I know Mark Penn works for a PR firm that advertised its union bashing), we believe that she genuinely supports the working man and woman of this country and that she did not suddenly become so overnight, as the MSM would have us believe. One needs only look at her record of accomplishments over the last dozen years.

We also believe that Obama does not care for the working man and woman.

I had not previously realized that Obama had failed to gain support from "the working man and woman," but now I do. In fact, I carefully researched exit polls from around the US and discovered that African American supporters of Obama were entirely part of the "creative class". Working class African Americans actually voted heavily for Hillary Clinton, but the MSM mysteriously failed to comment on this in their starry-eyed love affair with Barack Obama. Yes indeed, the scales have now fallen from my eyes. I once was blind, but now I see.

For young Judith, since the board doesn't have emoticons:

irony:
A sort of humor, ridicule, or light sarcasm, which adopts a mode of speech the meaning of which is contrary to the literal sense of the words.

"JudithOne - who is posting as just plain "Judith" now? - it isnt me."

I slipped up and forgot who I was. Not surprising.

Not angry, Julie, I'm Pollyanna with the Judiths today! But yeah, there's gonna be a lot of sniping for a while and it's gonna take a lot of self control to try and get things back to normal. And while I understand what you meant by "Hilbots" and "Obamabots," a lot of people see that and feel insulted. If we really want some kind of reconciliation, we're all gonna have to try to think of the other guy again. Our friends, right? That's all I want - and we can have fun again!

I heard Donna Brazile tell us about the new and improved Democratic Party and that it no longer includes me since I am not young or an inner city youth and the new coalition doesn't need the blue collar , white or Hispanic. She said it Tuesday on CNN during the primary results talkfest. I'll find myself a new home. One that includes this South Florida voter. Its been way past time for a third party anyway. But, you know what? I've not given up on a Clinton White House just yet.

Had to jump in again after reading some comments. People expressing surprize that the media is fawning over McCain, CNN and MSNBC. I think this is what we've been telling you was gonna happen. Thats why its imperative for Hillary to drop out now. So the corporate media can finally get to work and release the dossier they've been accumulating on Obama. They've only held back because he's not the nominee yet. Funny how the vitrolic progressive netroots, Huffington, Kos, Ameriblog, Sullivan all used to be Republicans. Maybe they still are.

glenn mcgahee, You're jumping the shark just like Begala did! Quit making shit up!

Donna Brazile did not exclude anyone!

Let me remind you what was said, with the exact text:

BRAZILE: Well, Lou, I have worked on a lot of Democratic campaigns, and I respect Paul. But, Paul, you're looking at the old coalition. A new Democratic coalition is younger. It is more urban, as well as suburban, and we don't have to just rely on white blue-collar voters and Hispanics. We need to look at the Democratic Party, expand the party, expand the base and not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

"EXPAND THE PARTY, EXPAND THE BASE." Making the Party grow, pretty much makes it all inclusive to me.

Judith/JudithOne - drat - I thought we had a 3rd.

I thought I could, but I can't. I'm one of those older white women Obama and his supporters have been insulting for months.

Now, like abusive husbands who, after beating the crap out of their wives, break down and cry and expect to be forgiven, they tell me to vote for him because the other guy beats his wife more often.

Ain't gonna happen. It's the equivalent of asking an AA to vote for a Klansman because he didn't mean it.

I won't vote for McCain, but I won't vote for Obama. I can't. It's not a question of punishing the Obama camp. Or the Democratic Party. Or America. It's a question of simple self respect.

Now, if it turns out that on election day we are looking at a Gore/Bush scenario, I might change my mind. But I live in California and I suspect that by the time I get to the polling station, McCain will already have won in a landslide.

I thought I could, but I can't. I'm one of those older white women Obama and his supporters have been insulting for months.

Now, like abusive husbands who, after beating the crap out of their wives, break down and cry and expect to be forgiven, they tell me to vote for him because the other guy beats his wife more often.

Ain't gonna happen. It's the equivalent of asking aa AA to vote for a Klansman because he's sorry for what he did.

I won't vote for McCain, but I won't vote for Obama. I can't. It's not a question of punishing the Obama camp. It's a question of simple self respect.

Now, if it turns out that on election day we are looking at a Gore/Bush scenario, I might change my mind. But I live in California and I suspect that by the time I get to the polling station, McCain will already have won in a landslide.

Julie - thanks for the definition - still no idea what you are on about though. Something you wrote meant to be ironic, I guess? The Dr mengele thing? If that was it then imo that wasnt ironic, that is called a serious lack of discretion. Still gotta hit the yikes button on you.

The way I look at it, FF, is that not voting is worth one vote against the (presumptive) Dem nominee, and a vote for McCain is worth two votes against the nominee. In other words, by not voting you are in effect voting against the Dem nominee, because it is a vote lost. I've also noticed that Obama gets a lot of blame for what others do in his name, so to speak,so I'd be interested in specifics of what Obama himself has done that you find offensive-- links would be helpful. There were a few Hillary supporters who did the same thing to Edwards, the candidate I supported. Not Hill's fault. Like I said, it sucks to see your candidate lose.

And for those here who call McCain "McOld", please quit.

Julie:
1. Obama knows what the media and his supporters have been saying and writing and posting about Hillary. I've not heard him suggest that the viciousness of the personal attacks constitutes an unacceptable misogyny. Indeed, he continues to insist that he is running a civil campaign and she is responsible for all the nastiness.

2. "likable enough" in response to a charming statement by Hillary that she thinks he's likeable, too, and (paraphrasing from memory) sure it hurts her feelings. She was smiling and courteous. He tossed off the "likable enough" with disdain in his voice, looks, and body language.

The only slightly covered up suggestion that a criticism by Hillary was due to that time of month (no, he didn't use those words, but that was obviously what he meant).

His dismissal of her foreign policy experience as having tea parties with wives.

The "sweety" and cell-phone comments he made to female supporters.

How he turned away from Hillary in the Senate when she shook Ted Kennedy's hand - although she must have been hurt by his decision to support Obama.

His body language in general in numerous debates & photos in which he was not only physically but emotionally looking down at her - like "what's a woman doing up here".

Not a question of misogyny but of basic principles:
His refusal not only to agree to seating Florida and Michigan but his refusal to permit revotes - even after Carville publicly committed 10 million to funding the revotes. This is the equivalent of Cheney's "so" when asked to comment on the fact that a majority of Americans did not support the war in Iraq. The last thing we need in the White House is another arrogant President whom the media love.

I started out trying to decide among Biden, Richardson & Edwards. When it became obvious that the first two were out, I went for Edwards because he was the only candidate telling Americans they would have to make some sacrifices.

I went for Hillary after New Hampshire, primarily because she was graceful both in defeat and victory whereas Obama was arrogant in victory and petulant in defeat. As time passed, Hillary impressed me more and more with her courage, her knowledge, her attention to detail. Obama's kumbaya wore thin very fast ... to say nothing of his insistence on blaming Democrats as well as Republicans for the state of Washington politics. (As a lifelong Dem., this offends me.)

So, now there are lots of fundamental differences between the two candidates that make me a Hillary supporter. But I could probably live with those. The misogyny I cannot accept - just as I could not accept racism in a candidate.

That's an interesting word, kumbaya, that Hillary supporters choose throw around with such derision.

His body language in general in numerous debates & photos in which he was not only physically but emotionally looking down at her - like "what's a woman doing up here".

Jesus, what do you expect him to do? He's a tall man.

Julie - I applaud you on asking people to refrain from age slurs on McCain - they do indeed hurt Democrats.

Julie - do tall men ususally gesture like they are wiping shit off their shoe when referring to other candidates or is that reserved for tall men just against women?

Let me detail 'the math' for Obama supporters, because now that it's finally becoming crystal clear I think it's time to face reality.

Barack Obama cannot win the Presidency.

You need electoral votes, not extra votes in small caucus states, to win. Most of the delegate-heavy contests are winner-take-all, not proportional representation, as with pledged delegates. The reason Hillary said that if we ran our primary like the Republicans she would already have won, is because the Republicans use winner-take-all elections in their primary. Hmm...why might that matter? It matters because of California, Texas, Ohio, Florida, New York, and yes...West Virginia.

You've been warned now, at least, and it's not a threat. It's a friendly warning, issued to those caught up in the religious frenzy of coronating Obama as the Crown Prince.

Obama's 'coalition' building was flawed from the beginning. African-Americans vote Democratic more reliably than most demographic groups. So-called "Reagan Democrats," though -- white, working-class voters -- do not always reliably do so. They voted for Reagan and they voted for Clinton, but not so much Kerry, Mondale, Dukakis, etc. (don't remember the numbers on Gore). His gamble is that the same attacks that have worked for 20 years, the narratives that people are accustomed to, will be inoperative this year. That case is failing miserably, perhaps because Obama and his base really are so out-of-touch with the lives of such people that there's an element of truth to the 'elitist' attacks that will be launched against him and have already begun to.

Think about this. The same criticism that many Clinton supporters have had of Obama -- that he has a lot of empty rhetoric -- is one that the Republicans are starting to use. And sadly, that's because it's true, and that's why it will work. Will I be able to defend Obama and say that he hasn't shifted the party's base from working class voters to well-off urban and suburbanites? No, my conscience wouldn't allow me to, because that's what he's in the process of trying to do. To break up the FDR coalition in the middle of a critical election -- now that's audacity, but not necessarily the good kind.

I've also heard a lot of talk about the Clintons "offending" black voters....many whites will interpret this badly, seeing it as unfair and ridiculous. And they'd be right, even if not all for the right reasons. You just need to face reality here. It's time to let the adults take over. (And no, I'm not hurling racial insults at Obama, I mean his deluded supporters).

I cannot think of one reason why I would vote for Obama. I have been a Democrat for 27 years and never missed an election voting Democrat and have donated liberally. But I am so done.

There is nothing that can make up for the lefts disgusting attacks on Hillary Clinton. Nothing. And after reading Bowers manifesto, I don't even want to be in this party anymore if that is the NEW Democratic government.

I have changed my registration to Independent and will vote downticket for Democrats but not for President.

Well, here a centrist Independent posting.

McCain is the worst candidate in my lifetime, and I voted for Carter. But really, the people who call themselves Democrats must get over themselves and support the Democratic nominee.

McCain just refused to sign the Fair Pay Act. I dont think Hillary supporters should even consider this man getting into office after all the work she has done for womens rights in America. McCain will also cave to the zero abortion platform of the Republican Party-no exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother. I dont care what kind of reservations you may have about Mr. Obama. On womens issues alone, this election is too important. Or would you like to be in the same camp as Phylis Shafley?

I would have been fine with Mrs. Clinton. Sorry Mark Penn lost the primary for her. But for people who profess to be Democrats that will not support the Democratic platform is beyond my understanding.

My sister, a lifelong Republican who voted for Bush twice, will support the Democratic nominee on the issue of the Iraq war. She lives in Arizona. I would hope that the Clinton supporters get over their loss in the primary and come to the realization that to vote for the Republican or to stay home will consign many more hundreds, if not thousands more brilliant American youth to their deaths in the Middle East.

I have heard rumours that some of the Clinton supporters would sabotage the Democratic nominee so their favorite Democratic candidate will have a crack at the White House in 2012. What if she loses the election in 2012?

We know what Mr. McCain will do. We will probably go to war with Iran. He has already angered the Russians. He will set the womens movement back 30 years or so. He may push America over the brink into fascism with his economic policies. With 60 or so lobbyists working for him, I would say this is a certainty. Some leading economists suggest that to continue the current economic policies of the Bush Administration will mean that we will no longer be a leading superpower in the world. Europe has already taken this economic title from us recently on the world stage.

This is too high of a price to pay for personality politics.

Shano,
McCain is the worst Democratic nominee I have seen i n my lifetime. He is very much the Democratic version of GW Bush.
It's difficult to be enthusiastic about voting for such an unqualified empty suit, no matter how bad the other guy is.

MarkL,

Mr. Obama has nothing in common with the neo cons, if that is your point.

Mr. Obama is a very qualified man, he will be running on the Democratic platform. He is qualified in ways that Mrs. Clinton is not, and she is qualified in ways he is not. If you are a Democrat, then you should support the Democratic nominee for the good of the country.

Mr. McCain is the most dangerous candidate I have seen in my life time. He will be completely controlled by lobbyists-this is his form from way back. At the end of his life, Barry Goldwaters deepest regret was supporting McCains run for office.

I admired Barry Goldwater. He was flawed, as all politicians are, but he was an honorable man in a way McCain can never be. And for him to regret a fellow Republican so thoroughly tells me that McCain will be a complete disaster for this nation.

"But for people who profess to be Democrats that will not support the Democratic platform is beyond my understanding."

Hey - lemme know when that platform actually shows up other than with Clinton, dude.

Both my Republican sister and I have gone over the Obama policy proposals and we think he will be an excellent president.

But you know how this works, dont you? When the nominee is finally confirmed, the Democratic party will define their platform in a negotiation. Many people will be involved. So the Democratic Platform will be defined by the Democratic Party.

The Democratic candidate will run on that platform. You see this happening now with the McCain negotiation with the Republican zero abortion platform. McCain will probably have to give in.

Shano - Oh, I get it now! The contenders dont need to say what their platform is until AFTER they get the nod.

What was I THINKING??? chuckle.

McCain sees an opportunity to go after the voters the dumb dumbs on Obama's team have peed on. One smart old dude, that McCainster.

No, that is not how it works. I dont see that Obama has peed on anyone. This primary has been a long tough battle and both the Democratic candidates have been beaten and bloodied. Not just YOUR candidate. BOTH candidates. So stop with this ignorance.

The Democratic Platform changes very little from decade to decade. It is the compilation of what the Democratic Party stands for, and the Democratic nominee must agree to that platform.
Do you think if a candidate went in and said, I dont agree with 80% of this platform that the superdelegates would give them the nomination?

No. the nominee must agree with the platform, not the other way around.

Shano - the correct quote from my post would ne:

"the dumb dumbs on Obama's team have peed on."

It is naughty to misrepresent what I said but I dont think you were really reading it anyway. I see that a lot - people who just want to post and who pretend they are actually responding to someone else's train of though or position. Carry on but count me out.

Bye

Shano,
Until you understand the gulf between us, there is no point in having a conversation.
Obama's political resume is paper-thin, and even that is puffed up (the bills in IL which he claims credit for which were given to him to sponsor).
He has no political accomplishments or experience to recommend him for the job of President. He has spent two years in the Senate, and even that job is too taxing for him. He's inarticulate when not reading prepared speeches; he's poor in debates.
The ONLY thing I like about Obama are his open government proposals; the Senate would be a find place for him to enact those and earn some credibility.
His language on health care and Social Security is deeply disturbing to me, as is fact that his economic team consists entirely of pro-privatization people.
His statements on foreign policy are generally ok, but he has no feel for nuance, IMO_--his repeated threats to invade Pakistan being an example.
He has demonstrated zero class, personally, in dealing with defeat. His flipping off of Hillary Clinton is frighteningly juvenile, on par with GW Bush's fratitude.

There's really no point in this conversation, IMO.
I find your evaluation of Obama delusional, to be frank. Obama is the chosen candidate of the DC elites---specifically Durbin, Daschle, Kerry and Kennedy. The worst losers in the Democratic party have put their imprimatur on Obama, and the media has fawned on him much as they did on Bush in 2000.

The only reason I'm posting this comment at all is that I am quite pissed at the blithe assumption that Clinton supporters will come on board and see Obama is a great candidate.
Um, I have seen all I want of Obama.
If he leaves the party entirely, I would be happy; barring that, let him stay in the Senate and DO something.
In my opinion, even if elected, he will be a disastrous President. The way he has divided the Democratic party already does not bode well for his unifying skills as President.

Totally agree with what you said, MarkL. He has lost my vote entirely and there is no getting it back. For me the clincher was the Michigan-Florida debacle but that was just the last straw on a growing pile.

Funny, there is only one thing about him I can say I like too, and that is his sympathy for the Palestinian cause (which the GOP will turn into "terrorist sympathy" of course), but that one thing is not enough for me to vote for him. I could vote for Cynthia McKinney on the Green ticket (similar issue), or I could vote McCain. Either way it won't be him, and I resent this automatic assumption that once again we will all fall into line and say "Yes, my abusive husband, you are welcome back." Not this time.