from crooks and liars...
Marietta bar owner Mike Norman says the T-shirts he’s peddling, featuring a look-a-like of cartoon chimp Curious George peeling a banana, with “Obama in ‘08″ underneath, are not meant to offend.
Norman acknowledged the imagery’s Jim Crow roots but said he sees nothing wrong with depicting a prominent African-American as a monkey. We’re not living in the (19)40’s,” he said. “Look at him . . . the hairline, the ears — he looks just like Curious George.”About a dozen prostestors rallied against the shirts Tuesday afternoon, condemning them as racist and asking Norman, longtime proprietor of Mulligan’s Bar and Grill on Roswell Street, to stop selling them.
Marietta native Pam Lindley, 47, joined the protest after reading about the controversy online.
“I don’t want people to think this is what Marietta is all about,” she added, motioning towards the tavern. “This is what some people think the South is still like. Marietta’s come a long way but I guess it’s still got a little ways to go.”
ahh. the monkey rears its ugly head once again. i mentioned a bit back whether or not race and racism will show/ effect the (imminent?) candidacy of obama. i wonder if you guys here will have the temerity to actually cover this. this is prevelant, the right winig will be quick to echo this in an albeit more subtle fashion, but this is offensive. the terrible thing is that 45+% found this t-shirt inoffensive. wtf?
i mentioned in previous posts many examples of how racism injects itself in this election cycle, yet obama has not risen to the bait. i think; however, he will once again need to address this. can one help me understand why the black candidate needs to address the race issue?
btw, one helluva endorsement speech from edwards.
Posted by anthony at May 15, 2008 03:29 AMSeems to me that all the men trailing Clinton last year in the polls have come together behind a "not Clinton" candidate in Barry Obama. The Break guy coming out last night in Grand Rapids was the final piece. Nice party you guys have...glass ceiling and all. Gang up on the woman in the pants suit, send her home to do the cooking. What a bunch of wimps. And at what cost!
McOld vs. McYoung, 14 to 1 money advantage and yet the race is still basically even. Look how Democrats throw money around...like an ATM is out there...sure shows how they'll run the economy into the ground throwing our tax money around, increasing our burden for their pleasure.
Posted by peter at May 15, 2008 03:36 AMWell McCain looks way more like Curious George than Obama does. Obama has a triangle head--not like Curious George at all. More like the man in the yellow hat. But yeah, pretty offensive. I still wonder though, how many years, or how many generations does it take before something like that is acceptable. No one bats an eye when GWB is called Chimpy or compared to a chimp. How long does it take before the racial overtones are gone and it's equal opportunity insults for any race? I'm not saying it's now--just wondering how long that takes.
Posted by CG at May 15, 2008 05:15 AMi wonder if you guys here will have the temerity to actually cover this.
Doubtful. They shy away from anything controversial around here. Can't you tell?
i think; however, he will once again need to address this.
You think he needs to directly address the fact that some guy is selling tshirts with Curious George on them out of his tavern in Marietta?
can one help me understand why the black candidate needs to address the race issue?
You
re the one who just told us you think he's gonna need to address it. Why do you think so?
I have to agree with Johnny Mac on one thing. Bush is Dumb As A Stump. I guess it's still OK to call Bush a chimp.
Posted by JohnT at May 15, 2008 06:37 AMI agree with the college educated elitest, CG.
I have been calling Bush a chimp for 8 years, so if Obama does something stupid and simionesk why is it off the table for him?
And fuck crooks and liars. They banned me for linking to the book "Vietnam" by Avro Manhatten which shows the involvement of Cardinal Spelling and the Catholic Church in pushing John Foster Dulles and the US into sending "advisors" into Vietnam to help protect ill-gotten church booty.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 15, 2008 06:42 AMAnd how couragous is John Edwards, waiting till many saying the race is over to come out for Obama? Obama's crowd in Michigan showed their mettle last night by booing when Clinton's name was mentioned by Edwards while he was making a reconcilitory comment trying to unify the party.
Obama and his wimps, ganging up on the lone woman and treating her poorly.
Posted by peter at May 15, 2008 06:47 AMJohn Edwards' praise of Hillary Clinton last night drew boos from the crowd. Classy.
I find it interesting that Edwards didn't endorse until now and Gore still hasn't. Is it out of respect for Clinton, or is it that they're really just not 100% sure about Obama?
So, Anthony, if you explain depicting Obama as the cartoon monkey Curious George (which he DOES resemble in some ways) as clear racism, then how do you explain the consistent depiction of George Bush as a chimpanzee?
Posted by Shirin at May 15, 2008 06:58 AMReading the comments here, it looks as if the 2008 election will center around the issue of racism.
Forget Iraq.
Forget Global Warming.
Forget the economy.
Forget energy.
Forget tax policy.
Forget gay marriage, school prayer, abortion, and flag burning (the usual front-pagers of election years).
All we're going to discuss until November is racism.
"Will white people vote for Obama?"
"Are black people racist if 90% vote for the black candidate?"
And potentially: "Is adding a Latino candidate to one of the tickets to 'get the Latino vote' racist?"
Probably very frustrating for anyone who wants to discuss solutions for any of the above issues.
I can take a stab at explaining that to you Shirin. One word - HISTORY! There is a long and not very venerable tradition in American racist circles, of depicting people of African American ancestry as monkeys, to put it bluntly. There is nothing mysterious or difficult to understand about this. Everyone knows about it and everyone knows exactly the sub-human, inferior status it's meant to imply.
That was why the "Macaca" meltdown of George Allen was so powerful. It was VERY clearly understood as a racist attack on someone who, even though as much a citizen as himself, looked "other" than lily white. It was mean souled and small minded and allowed the public to recognize those traits in Geroge Allens' three sizes too small, little heart.
When similar analogies are drawn of a privileged, white member of a ruling class family, it's easily understood that, in THAT case, it's referring to the personal characteristics, the stupidity of that individual, the sub-human intelligence or ability demonstrated. In case A, there's a long, revolting historical meaning. In case B, it's simply personal. Capiche?
Posted by DeminNewJ at May 15, 2008 07:28 AMI believe we are being derogative to chimps since they are much more intelligent than Repugs.
Posted by JohnT at May 15, 2008 07:46 AMI think DeminNewJ prettymuch nailed it.
What will be interesting, should Obama be elected the next president, is how the media (including the cottege industry that seems to thrive on ridiculing the occupant of the White House whoever it may be) and places like the blogosphere will deal with this if, or when, the love affair with President Obama is over. No priviledged white man occupying the seat in the Oval Office to take easy swipes at. Uncharted territory for sure.
Posted by snark at May 15, 2008 07:57 AMshirin, I'm not sure where you live nor do I care to know. However anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line knows without any question that referring to a Black person as a monkey is a racial slur. It will quickly get your ass kicked if said in the wrong place to the wrong person. DeminNJ does a fine job of breaking it down. There is absolutely no way that the bar owner in question printed that shirt with anything but derogatory intent. I'd like to see him wear one around central Houston, or Watts, or Detroit.
Posted by T2 at May 15, 2008 08:06 AMJohn McCain figures he can win the war in Iraq by 2013 but he's not making any promises about Afghanistan.
More like this Johnny.
Keep that straight talk comin'.
Posted by snark at May 15, 2008 08:26 AMJust to follow up on Steve's post from yesterday, "...that Team Obama wants to control all the Democratic money this campaign cycle themselves." Seems that is not the entire case:
Democratic rivals agree to raise money together for November election
WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton can agree on one thing: They want their party to have more money, no matter who is the nominee.The Democratic National Committee announced yesterday that it had signed agreements with both campaigns to begin raising money together. As part of the agreement, donors can contribute up to $33,100 to the newly created Democratic White House Victory Fund. Most of the money will benefit whichever candidate becomes the nominee.
Officials at the DNC said chairman Howard Dean has been working with both campaigns on the idea since February. At the end of March the DNC had $5.3 million in the bank, and the Republican National Committee had $31 million.
It would be nice to see an update.
From MSNBC;
In a speech to Israel's Knesset, Bush said: "Some seem to believe that we should negotiate with the terrorists and radicals, as if some ingenious argument will persuade them they have been wrong all along.
"We have heard this foolish delusion before. As Nazi tanks crossed into Poland in 1939, an American senator declared: 'Lord, if I could only have talked to Hitler, all this might have been avoided.' We have an obligation to call this what it is — the false comfort of appeasement, which has been repeatedly discredited by history."
Obama responded with a statement, seizing on Bush's remarks even as it was unclear to whom the president was referring.
"It is sad that President Bush would use a speech to the Knesset on the 60th anniversary of Israel's independence to launch a false political attack," Obama said in the statement his aides distributed. "George Bush knows that I have never supported engagement with terrorists, and the president's extraordinary politicization of foreign policy and the politics of fear do nothing to secure the American people or our stalwart ally Israel."
The White House said Bush's comment wasn't a reference to Obama.
"It is not," press secretary Dana Perino told reporters in Israel. "I would think that all of you who cover these issues and have for a long time have known that there are many who have suggested these types of negotiations with people that the president, President Bush, thinks that we should not talk to. I understand when you're running for office you sometimes think the world revolves around you. That is not always true. And it is not true in this case."
Ouch!
While it's hilarious hearing anyone in the Bush administration say that the world doesn't revolve around someone I think Obama better get better at responding to crap like this.
Can you say Tier One, Tier Two campaign anyone?
Hillary apparently apologized for her "white Americans" remark, which I think is odd, since I think she was simply pointing out that she was only getting the support of white working class voters, not black working class voters, but whatever.
Obama called a reporter "sweetie." He called her to apologize and said he has a bad habit of calling people "sweetie" and meant no disrespect. He better get over that habit fast. How and why did he manage to develop that habit in the first place?
Posted by CG at May 15, 2008 09:22 AM...I think Obama better get better at responding to crap like this.
Sounds like Obama should have defended the whole Democratic Party. Something is campaign team will have to look closely at before responding so quickly. He will have to differentiate between personal attacks and attacks on political ideology. He definitely could have phrased it better.
Oh no, not the deadly W.O.R.M. again.
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 09:22 AMOh, and McCain has unveiled plans for a flat tax?? Where did that come from? I don't recall him campaigning on that.
Posted by CG at May 15, 2008 09:24 AMHow and why did he manage to develop that habit in the first place?
I bet he calls his Daughters that.
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 09:24 AMOh, and McCain has unveiled plans for a flat tax?? Where did that come from?
McShame sounds like he's really, really reaching out to everyone... especially after Ron Paul supporters said they want to disrupt the Republi-con convention.
I wonder if Huckabee will be on his ticket. He favored a similiar plan as Ron Paul's. (I think.)
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 09:29 AMOK, so chimp is off the table.
But since he's half white what about imp?
1. naughty imaginary being: a small, mischievous, imaginary being
2. mischievous child: a high-spirited or mischievous child
3. demon: a small demon or devil
Can I get a ruling here?
TIKI, What about PIMP.
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 09:36 AMI bet he calls his Daughters that.
Which is why it's so offensive to adult women, and why a lot of us think he's a prick. His "apology" was pretty weak, as well. If he expects to woo all the women his campaign has offended into voting for him in the fall, he's gonna have to do better than a "duly chastened" dismissal.
Posted by iamcoyote at May 15, 2008 09:37 AMSnark, just getting ready to post the same story. Guess we know what to expect from the GOP during the campaign, as if we are surprised.
Posted by JudithONe at May 15, 2008 09:40 AMCG, you reminded me of an incident when George Herbert Walker Bush was running. He had just given a speech and a female reporter asked him a question. He responded with "my dear young girl," in a condescending tone. I'm sure she never received a phone call from Bush.
Posted by JudithOne at May 15, 2008 09:45 AMWhich is why it's so offensive to adult women, and why a lot of us think he's a prick.
I guess that uppity negro is supposed to know his place and always snap to and say, "Yes Ma'am!"... "No, Ma'am!"... "Anything else, Ma'am!"
His "apology" was pretty weak, as well.
He personally calls back to apologize, and make a follow up with her... and that's not good enough?
Obama apologized in a voicemail he left on Agar's cell phone at 3:16 p.m:"Hi Peggy. This is Barack Obama. I'm calling to apologize on two fronts. One was you didn't get your question answered and I apologize. I thought that we had set up interviews with all the local stations. I guess we got it with your station but you weren't the reporter that got the interview. And so, I broke my word. I apologize for that and I will make up for it.
"Second apology is for using the word 'sweetie.' That's a bad habit of mine. I do it sometimes with all kinds of people. I mean no disrespect and so I am duly chastened on that front. Feel free to call me back. I expect that my press team will be happy to try to make it up to you whenever we are in Detroit next."
So coyote, from your point of view how should Obama address her and how should the apology go?
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 10:18 AMt2,
i agree, if it aint racist, where it somewhere outside of your comfort zone, how bout 9th ward new orleans, where aid still hasn't arrived for those folks.
i started documenting the overtones on monday, from the huff post, to the wash post, and now msnbc, are all starting to trickle out stories of racist barbs thrown obama's way.
imagine if an obama operative stated he/she wouldn't vote for hilary because she's a woman, as the wv volunteer claimed she wouldn't vote obama because of his race.
i'm waiting, and i hope im not proven wrong, but i'm waiting for him to get pissed and the media starts with "ohh look at the angry black man." for some reason, an angry black man brings more fear.
say what you want, but it is true. as deminnj and t2 so kindly interjected, it is offensive.
hey snark:
how is it with you?
i would very much like all the dems to go to bat against this shit. it is a very poor reflection of our country. a spanish co-worker bluntly told me obama wouldn't win because he is black, and he liked him, but he quoted our nation's history back to me better than i remembered. from pa to wv, his campaign and his volunteers have been subject to racist bs, from other dems, if what was printed is true.
if it is just getting out now, can you imagine how much of this was experienced?
but, then controversy is nuttin new here, huh? ;)
Posted by anthony at May 15, 2008 10:19 AMsorry, it should be wear, not where...
tiki al, "college educated elitist," if referring to me, thanks for the compliment.
cg:
dunno about when it's ok. but then again, snark and i had long running commentary on monkeys and black folk. i guess, when we all are willing to have genuine conversation about race, without hard feelings, pandering, or sarcasm, we could get past this shit. or, just acknowledging how fcuked up slavery was and educate our kids to what went on vs. a week in 8th grade, it would go a long way to foster understanding. damn, germany teaches the holocaust, and throws folks in jail for denying it happened or for wearing nazi regalia. they get by, by sporting the stars and bars... wonderful that, a symbol representing for some, hatred, is used by nazi sympathizers and skin heads in germany...
For those who were interested in my shots of wildflowers in Syria, I have put a few up here
Posted by Shirin at May 15, 2008 10:28 AMI guess that uppity negro is supposed to know his place and always snap to and say, "Yes Ma'am!"... "No, Ma'am!"... "Anything else, Ma'am!"
That was really uncalled for SoS.
Posted by snark at May 15, 2008 10:28 AM
I call my kids sweetie and have maybe occasionally called an adult very close friend sweetie, but never have I called someone sweetie in a professional setting. I really don't get how you get that mixed up. I think his apology was a little lame. It was ok, but could have been better. He could have been more contrite, rather than saying "oh right--I do that sometimes, my bad." Instead of "so I am duly chastened" which sounds a little like "ok, whatever" he could have said "I am really very sorry and I will make sure I don't do it again."
Posted by CG at May 15, 2008 10:44 AMThe 'uppity negro' phrasing may be overboard, but the expectation for snapping to, apologizing ad infinitum, and base obsequious deferment for weeks afterward - that's entirely appropriate.
To be blunt - I honestly think that's what a certain, vocal segment of Hillary Clinton's supporters absolutely, positively demand.
Posted by idiosynchronic at May 15, 2008 10:49 AMThat was really uncalled for SoS.
I think it's pretty trivial thing to jump on him about. It certainly was no "Macaca" moment.
"Sweetie" is a term of endearment. Not for professional usage, I guess. From my point of view, my wife loves to be called "sweetie".
To me it screams of something to accuse him of by Hillarians, again. He has said many times, he's not perfect.
Posted by Seven of Six at May 15, 2008 10:54 AMI think it's pretty trivial thing to jump on him about. It certainly was no "Macaca" moment.
"Sweetie" is a term of endearment. Not for professional usage, I guess. From my point of view, my wife loves to be called "sweetie".
So the reporter should not have been bothered by it because it's a term of endearment that is appropriate between a husband and wife? I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it but I'm not a woman.
To me it screams of something to accuse him of by Hillarians, again. He has said many times, he's not perfect.
And your response typifies the "any criticism of Obama can be stiffled by screaming racist" mentality that I find coming from many of his supporters. Iamcoyote's comment had nothing to do with Obama's race. But you tried to make her out to be asking him to subjugate himself like a slave when she was doing nothing of the sort. And to be blunt, I thought it was reprehensible.
Shirin, OMG, how lucky you are. The assortment of flowers is absolutely beautiful. I'm jealous that you have poppies. I have tried to grow them in Zone 5, but never successful. Yet, you have them growing wild. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by JudithOne at May 15, 2008 11:08 AMI guess that uppity negro is supposed to know his place and always snap to and say, "Yes Ma'am!"... "No, Ma'am!"... "Anything else, Ma'am!"
Can you please point to me where I mentioned anything about his race? Thank you. PS - screaming "uppity negro" everytime someone fails to suck on the Unity Schtick is really getting old, and will definitely damage Obama in the GE.
So coyote, from your point of view how should Obama address her and how should the apology go?
If you're really interested, (which I doubt), you can read this thread to get an idea of why women are pissed off and why it could be a problem for him later on. And be sure to read the trolls coming in to call the women there vile names and laugh at them, try to resist joining them, if you can.
As Melissa says at the link:
"Duly chastened" means, in my experience, "reluctantly admit I got busted on something I don't really think should be wrong in the first place."What makes a good apology is saying what you did wrong, explaining that you know why it was wrong, and then saying unequivocally it was wrong.
"It was both unprofessional and condescending of me to refer to Ms. Yeager as 'sweetie,' which is quite obviously an inappropriate attitude to take toward women and not a good trait for the leader of a nation. I was wrong, I'm sorry, I'm glad it was brought to my attention, and I will absolutely not do it again."
Considering this isn't the first time he's done it, either. Only this time, it was a reporter, and he only "apologized" because he had to have seen the scathing newscast she did afterward. He was forced to issue some statement because he looked like a prick - I'm sure you see nothing wrong with it, but that short little clip is why I think he is a prick.
Like I said before, I'll vote for the fucker in Nov. but I don't have to like him. I think it's better not liking him anyhow; I won't be as blind to his faults as many here seem to be, and I won't be disappointed when rainbows and ponies don't fly outta his ass on inaugeration day (if he manages that "unity" shit he's always promising while being a divisive bastard).
Posted by iamcoyote at May 15, 2008 11:09 AM"TIKI, What about PIMP."
...if the aligator shoes fit.....
I called our female Bengal cat "Sweetie Pie" and snapped my fingers. She jumped up on my lap and peed all over me. Not gonna do that again.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 15, 2008 11:10 AMThe worst part of using the word "sweetie" is that the MSM will now spend five days on analyzing what Obama meant by the term. Never give these assh*les a reason to redirect the focus.
Posted by JudithOne at May 15, 2008 11:15 AMThru the years I have been called "hon", "honey", and "sweetie" by countless waitresses in greasy spoons from coast to coast.
At the time I thought it was cute. Were these girls being naughty? Was I being verbally violated, and didn't even know it?
And to think, I innocently slept with some of them.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 15, 2008 11:32 AMIt is just astonishing to me how in this campaign people fall all over themselves to see racism and sexism in practically everything. Unfortunately, the ultimate effect of this panting eagerness to detect, concoct, or invent racism and sexism is to blunt criticism when it actually occurs.
Posted by Shirin at May 15, 2008 11:45 AMshirin:
fine, buy the shirt, and wear it in a predominantly black community. if you come out whole and without signifcant bruising, then you are correct, depicting a black man as a monkey, eating a banana, is just a joke, and is inherently not racist, lets not forget, this is georgia...
ps...
please put your ass kicking on youtube...
thnx
Anthony, I will not buy or wear the shirt for the simple reason that it is disrespectful to Obama as a human being, and I do not believe he has earned that disrespect. Also, I do not do logo shirts. If I DID wear it, it would not be a racist gesture for the simple reason that it would not be my intent. Whether or not the image is racist depends not on the perception of others, but on the intent of its creator, and of each individual who displays it. since I have no idea what is in their minds, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt until they give me reason to believe otherwise.
Posted by Shirin at May 15, 2008 01:21 PMshirin:
point taken; however, the shirt is offensive, and without doubt purposefully offensive...
btw,
this is hilarious...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-palevsky/facing-racism-in-america_b_101869.html
Anthony,
I agree entirely that the image is offensive and purposely so, which is one of several reasons I would never display it (let alone wear it!). In addition, it shows poor judgment, particularly if the creator and wearers do NOT intend it as racist, since it is so easy - and for some tempting - to interpret it that way. My only argument is with the automatic assumption that it is racist.
By the way, one of the biggest problems I have with some people's eagerness to leap to the racist or sexist accusation is that it becomes a very easy, cheap tactic that avoids addressing real, substantive issues - kind of like the Barack HUSSEIN Obama ploy, or some of the irrelevant crap about Hillary.
Posted by Shirin at May 15, 2008 02:04 PMFYI, 1st quarter GDP likely to be revised up from .6% to 1%.
I think Obama would rally the crowd if he held up the t-shirt and said something like, "Bananas have a lot of potassium. Everyone should have at least 5 or 6 servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Why not include a banana?"
Totally disarms the monkey reference, and the t-shirt (and bananas) then become pro-Obama.
Posted by Muck at May 15, 2008 06:05 PM(And the Obama girl, wearing that t-shirt, and seductively eating that banana? A Youtube instant fav...)
Posted by Muck at May 15, 2008 06:07 PM