eriposte...have you ever heard of a guy named John McCain? or George Bush? You used to dedicate your time exposing the lies of people like them. So are you telling me that the "lie" you've exposed regards audience response at an Obama speech? That's a little different that telling crowd after crowd that you braved deadly gunfire to prove how tough you are. Can you spell irrelevant, eri?
Man eRiposte, that's a reach isn't it?
It was a small quiet applause when he made the comments, then, only a standing ovation at the conclusion of the speech. Which is usually normal at any ending of a speech.
Is this all that's left? Applause at the conclusion of speeches?
She's lost because of her own mistakes, not because of anything that the Obama fanatics said or did. Time to move on. Obama ran a much better campaign and he's won fair and square. There's sure to be another woman who will win the White House. Just a matter of time. But Clinton wasn't the one. Bill lost it for her in South Carolina. No Dem is going to win the General with 7% of the AA's, which is where she's been at since Bill did all the dog-whistle racist stuff back in January. We need to focus on McCain, which Clinton is now doing.
Posted by JohnShreffler at May 16, 2008 06:49 AMShe's lost because of her own mistakes, not because of anything that the Obama fanatics said or did. Time to move on. Obama ran a much better campaign and he's won fair and square. There's sure to be another woman who will win the White House. Just a matter of time. But Clinton wasn't the one. Bill lost it for her in South Carolina. No Dem is going to win the General with 7% of the AA's, which is where she's been at since Bill did all the dog-whistle racist stuff back in January. We need to focus on McCain, which Clinton is now doing.
Posted by JohnShreffler at May 16, 2008 06:49 AMT2 and SoS, thanks for making my point. You just make it so easy for me.
Posted by eriposte at May 16, 2008 06:52 AMSorry for the double post.
Posted by JohnShreffler at May 16, 2008 06:52 AMNot to pile on, but we haven't seen the rest of the speech. The (very) tepid applause we heard came after he suggested that his "deal" involved partial respite from health care costs, IF they promised to reinvest the savings into fuel efficiency improvements.
At the beginning of the video, he describes a mild castigation of the industry for losing the initiative to Japan and telling them they have to do better. It's entirely possible that, in another, non-gotcha part of the speech, he DID make such statements to a stony silence.
This video; and the entire argument, is so utterly lame it does not deserve front paging. I agree that both candidates can be forgiven for making mistakes after 15 months of mind boggling repetition of talking points and literally, thousands of speeches.
The primary race is over and fixations on such silly and questionable gaffes should be the concern of the "serious journalists" in the Corporate-pwned Media. We're actually much better than that! Can we just agree to move on and skewer the truly dangerous panderings of Johnny McWar and his Military/Media Millionaire Minions?
Posted by DeminNewJ at May 16, 2008 06:58 AMMy point was that your point on Obama was irrelevant, a stupid attempt at "Gotcha" politics. As for the Queen of Tuzla's lie, the image of her meeting and hugging that little girl on the tarmac when she says bullets were flying all around told us all we needed to know about that episode.
Posted by T2 at May 16, 2008 07:15 AMWell, you're not calling him a liar for this because you know it would make you appear ridiculous.
In Gen'ral Eriposte's world, Obamans are required to acknowlege that all candidate "misstatements" are of equal weight, whatever the subject matter and however many times one pigheadedly repeats the error.
Kind of sad at this point.
Hillary should take it to the convention no matter what, right, eriposte?
Posted by euzoius at May 16, 2008 07:16 AMThe primary race will be over when A. the delegates and SDs have voted at the convention or B. all of the candidates but one have dropped out. Since neither of those have happened, any claim that the race is over is, at best, wishful thinking.
Posted by jwrjr at May 16, 2008 07:24 AMHere we have neville chamberlain rubbish being spewed overseas and this is the topic you decided to push? Are you kidding me? I dont mind genuine attempts to point out Obama's flaws but this? Personally I am surprised the "sweetie" comment didnt come up to me that is a no no and something that it would have been perfectly legit to discuss instead this....
Posted by jesse at May 16, 2008 07:25 AMEriposte, you need to take a deep breath and reflect. Why have you so tied your emotions to Hillary Clinton? Do you see her as a proxy for yourself, somehow?
You have gone way, way overboard for a long time on this. There is no objectivity in anything you write. You have become the equivalent of Sean Hannity, but for Clinton.
I used to compare your support of Clinton to Kos' support of Obama, but you are way, way past where he is.
Posted by Anonny at May 16, 2008 07:50 AMHillary should take it to the convention no matter what, right, eriposte?
MI and Fl, fuckers, just wait, the glory will be Hillary's soon. I can't wait to get on that bus...
Posted by Seven of Six at May 16, 2008 08:22 AMI hate to be petty, but there were small girls seated in front and his fly was open.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 16, 2008 08:36 AMI hate to be petty, but there were small girls seated in front and his fly was open.,/i>
I'm sure he said, "Everything will be fine sweetie".
Posted by Seven of Six at May 16, 2008 08:50 AMI hate to be petty, but there were small girls seated in front and his fly was open.
As long as he didn't do any "dry-humping" like someone else did at Xmas service!
Posted by Sharon at May 16, 2008 08:57 AMJesse is exactly right. The "sweetie" comment is a legitimate issue (although I would hate to see it blown completely out of proportion and Obama addressed it quickly).
Obama's desire to control the entire Democratic message machine and money is troubling and was properly addressed by Steve Soto.
But this...??? [shakes head in sadness and resignation]
Don't you fucking get it eriposte? When T2 says "have you ever heard of a guy named John McCain? or George Bush? You used to dedicate your time exposing the lies of people like them." it is called constructive criticism.
How did Hillary Clinton of all people -- who has utterly failed to use her position on the Armed Services Committee to investigate the myriad levels of criminality and corruption that pervade America's military policies -- become the hero of our most incisive Yellowcake investigator?
If Hillary Clinton had spent the last two years calling for hearings, investigations, and indictments on Blackwater, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, permanent military bases in Iraq, Chalabi, CPA embezzlement, contractor fraud, etc., etc., etc. she would have run away with the nomination by New Hampshire. She would be the darling of the A-list bloggers you now revile. She would be the hero of Keith Olberman and the toast of Huffington Post.
But she didn't. Like with her AUMF vote, and like Nancy "impeachment is off the table" Pelosi, Hillary chose a don't-rock-the-boat strategy that she thought would keep her from being slimed as a DFH by the Village. She even passed on the FISA fight long after Dodd proved the political advantages of doing the right thing. And now she has lost.
Posted by space at May 16, 2008 09:08 AMVery predictable. Any criticism of Obama is followed by an explosion of Hilary is Satan non-sense. Why can't you folks ever just explain Obama's gaffe by simply explaining it? Why do your explanations always involve how wicked Hilary is? Is it because you have no reasonable explanation?
One last thing, Obama didn't say he received a tepid response, he said he received no response, period. He messed up, it was his misstatement, it happens. Get over it.
Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated
Don Henley-The Garden of Allah
Posted by Radix at May 16, 2008 09:18 AMheh, don't listen to em, eriposte. history will prove you prescient and principled, unlike obama and most of his supporters.
Posted by kangeroo at May 16, 2008 09:28 AMRadix,
The difference, which is really so obvious that it is painful to have to explain it, is that Hillary fabricated a version of events in order to paint herself as a cross between Madeleine Albright, Douglas MacArthur, and Indiana Jones.
Whereas Obama's purported "misstatement" was not meaningful. Obama's point -- that his remarks were poorly received -- is valid whether he received no applause or tepid, polite applause (that he received the latter merely reflects on the manners of the audience).
Nobody said that Hillary was Satan. In fact, I didn't give her a hard time about her Tuzla comments at the time (IIRC, my response was to the effect of "She got busted trying to puff herself up. Not a big deal. Let's move on."
Posted by space at May 16, 2008 09:30 AMSpace,
what Obama said wasn't minor. What he was doing was trying to enforce the narrative that he will stand up for what's right, even in the lions den, as it were. That narrative wouldn't have been quiet as effective if he let on the lions were all purring and happy, now would it? See, it's all a matter of perspective isn't it? We can choose to be charitable or not. I can choose to be charitable about Obama's Selma statements and the Kennedy airlift, which he wrote about in his book, by saying that these were family "stories" which often get overstated in the telling, no harm there, it's typical. Or, I can say that Obama lied about these events in order to further his personal narrative about his connection with the civil right movement, said movement that he's made no real effort to sustain or push forward.
See how easy it is?
Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated
Don Henley-The Garden of Allah
Posted by Radix at May 16, 2008 09:45 AM
eriposte, are you an Obama supporter or a McCain supporter. At this point, those are your choices.
Posted by CA Pol Junkie at May 16, 2008 10:20 AMThat narrative wouldn't have been quiet as effective if he let on the lions were all purring and happy, now would it?
Sorry, Radix, that doesn't cut it. (a) The lions weren't purring and happy. They were being polite. (b) Detroit has a looooong history of opposing more fuel efficient cars and higher fuel standards and Obama is was correct they need to change both their attitude and their behavior.
A reasonable person might assume that -- because Detroit routinely attacks pro-conservation efforts -- Obama might have conflated the overall negative response that he has received from Detroit and exaggerated the coldness of the the audience response in his own mind. That is a far cry from misremembering being shot at. (Is there anyone who would seriously argue otherwise?)
Besides, contrary to your claim, I don't oppose criticism of Obama. I specifically mentioned two issues on which he warranted scrutiny, if not criticism. But this one is really, really weak.
Posted by space at May 16, 2008 10:36 AMBTW, Radix:
Even if Obama did intentionally exaggerate/distort the response that he received from the audience, that is exactly the type of self-serving bullshit that I expect all politicians to engage in. I don't put any politicians on a pedestal (save, perhaps, Howard Dean).
I have received thousands of solicitation emails and letters from Democrats. They all tell me how important it is that I give them money because they have been fighting so hard (NOT) against the GOP.
Hillary has also exaggerated/distorted her role in the passage of FMLA. Not a big deal. In the Tusla case, Hillary made the mistake of trying to be an action hero and not just a politician.
Posted by space at May 16, 2008 10:48 AMSpace, I understand your position, I do. As you stated, it is a matter of spin. I could just as easily say Hilary was tired and simply mis-remembered Tuzla, it all depends on whether or not I choose to be charitable or not, or if there is political advantage for my candidate in one direction or another. I could then also claim, that while Obama's flub about the applause issue was very minor in and of itself, but not when added to all the other minor mis-statements, it points to a disturbing trend of exaggeration. So, you see, it's about the politics of advantage, nothing more. One side will look at it one way, the other side will see it differently. To claim that one side has a better take than the other is naive, in my mind.
Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated
Don Henley-The Garden of Allah
Posted by Radix at May 16, 2008 11:06 AMI could just as easily say Hilary was tired and simply mis-remembered Tuzla,
Come now. Nobody misremembers being shot at.
Obama's comment is reminiscent of Gore's claim to have visited Texas with FEMA director James Lee Witt. In fact, Gore did visit Texas after the fires there. And he traveled with FEMA's deputy director. And he had traveled with Witt in the past. He just hadn't traveled with Witt to Texas when he said he had. But THAT was an example of credible "misremembering". Tusla? Not so much.
Posted by sp at May 16, 2008 11:25 AMMcCain can't tell Shi'a from Shinola.
Barack thinks there are 57 states.
Clinton said she landed "under sniper fire" when she should have said she landed "under threat of sniper fire.
And which one gets lambasted?
Right. Thought so.
Posted by No Blood for Hubris at May 16, 2008 11:31 AMObama is okay, Obamanists are scum. The fallout from Obamanist behavior this year is going to last a while.
Posted by Barry at May 16, 2008 11:47 AMall the wasted energy going on here could have been put to use fighting the gop hit machine. Get this fucking primary over so we can fight McCain. Heres the math stupids.....HILLARY CANT FUCKING WIN, did everyone understand that?
Posted by Joe at May 16, 2008 01:22 PMThrough the magic of Google, I uncovered this contemporary report of the reaction to Obama's speech:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-0705070759may08,1,5628036.story
Opening paragraph:
"DETROIT - In a frontal assault on the automobile industry, Sen. Barack Obama's call Monday for tougher fuel-economy standards and new financial incentives for hybrid cars would force a retooling of the way autos are built -- triggering a sometimes tepid response from business leaders in the Motor City.
The Illinois senator outlined a detailed energy proposal that echoes calls by other Democrats for higher fuel-efficiency standards and seeks to demonstrate he has environmental credentials as robust as those with longer voting records.
Republicans are getting in on the energy debate as well. Arizona Sen. John McCain has repeatedly called for higher fuel-efficiency standards, while former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney has said it makes little sense to "arbitrarily" increase fuel-efficiency standards without increasing alternative fuels and hybrid technology.
U.S. automakers are less excited. They have long opposed tougher fuel standards, saying they would hurt jobs, safety and affordability."
------------------------------------------
In other words, press reports AT THE TIME OF THE SPEECH noted a cool audience response, and the published substance of the proposal is something that the domestic auto industry has opposed.
Tell me again what the issue is here? What is Obama supposed to be lying about? Eriposte, you really need to acknowledge that Obama really, really didn't say or do anything wrong here.
The only liar here is the person who put that YouTube snippet up.
Wow, to think that this was the first political blog that I used to follow. How sad that it has fallen so far.
The applause came after he talked about making a deal with car makers if they would REINVEST in fuel efficient cars.
You are sooooo desperate for Obama to say anything even remotely on par with Bosnia, that you freakin make sh*t up.
So sad.
Would you please move on?
Posted by tonyt at May 16, 2008 01:49 PMI concede that the nomination is Obama's and the sooner Hillary exits the better for the unity of the party. However, what concerns me is not the candidate but his followers who seem not to be able to see any of their candidates' shortcomings.
While I believe the Bosnia blunder was a bigger deal and that Detroit speech probably has no legs, the fact that the Obama supporters chalk it up to exaggerations of a candidate on the stump demonstrates that perhaps their man is just another politician, not the deity they worship.
I will put an Obama sticker on my car in place of the Hillary one have now because I realize that in the end it is important that we not let another Republican near the White House.
Posted by Jerry Saleeby at May 16, 2008 02:55 PMI just finished reading some email from Bill O'Reilly's people sent to Markos recently. I'd like to apologize to Obama supporters out there for a comment I posted to this diary earlier today. There's no use in that kind of viciousness. It does us no good. I'm sorry.
Posted by Barry at May 16, 2008 03:27 PMOh my god! People clapped! Take cover, people are clapping at me! I think it's a little different then claiming you've been shot at. By the way, it was kind of a weak clap at that.
Posted by Joe B at May 16, 2008 04:44 PMHad eriposte bothered to use Google he would have found these reports:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080514/BUSINESS01/805140387/1014
"Obama's Tough Talk Backfires in Motown":
http://www.newsweek.com/id/34740
"Bill Ford, Jr. Miffed by Obama's Criticism of Auto Industry":
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277013,00.html
We all know eriposte knows how to use a search engine, why didn't he bother?
The problem for eriposte and for The LeftCoaster is we now know he is not an honest broker. When we read eriposte's work we have to asked ourselves, what is he hiding? What did he forget to tell else?
I can no longer trust his work.
Barry Obama's in free fall. Big loss in WV, another bog loss in Kentucky, and falling in the polls on Oregon according to ARG polling. He assumed the roll of an appeaser when he wasn't being referred to. And his new mouthpiece, another girl named Rice, made a fool of herself trying to defend questions about Obama. It's going to be long summer Democrats. Denver isn't going to bring any joy in August.
All these men ganging up on one lone woman...Wow, who'd have thought that some poor misguided Republican would feel sorry for a Clinton. Something, just something...
Posted by peter at May 16, 2008 08:34 PMThe same Obama trolls here as at myDD and DKos. No, really, do they pay you smug thugs or do you not have a non-Milosevic centered existence to atend to? To all you bs action hero guys for Obama and McCain, when someone (say, like Togo West) tells you the area has been under sniper fire, you do remember that. You don't know because you have never been in that situation. Obama has not won the nomination. Grasp that. Stop the premature ejaculations of victory already. Thank God none of you Obama fools has ever had a real gun and been on watch. The whole village would die if a cat crossed the road.
Posted by justslap at May 16, 2008 11:11 PMI think it would be interesting to examine the TLC threads of the past couple months and see which side, Obamans or Hillarians, was actually more personally insulting to the other, and to the opposing candidate.
I'm starting to doubt this "conventional wisdom" that the Obamans were more "insulting" to Hillary and her supporters than the Hillarians were to us....
Posted by euzoius at May 17, 2008 05:14 AMjustslap: did you follow the link posted? Note that the central claim that eriposte is repeating, and the false impression from the youtube bit, is that Obama was not being truthful *in this particular case*, and - guess what - contemporary press reports back him up. It doesn't mean he never does anything wrong, but this particular avenue of attack is just invalid. This is trolling...why? I do notice that the Clinton supporters on this thread seem to be completely ignoring this (rather central) point. Why?
Posted by Marc at May 17, 2008 07:02 AMOne question. Hillary who?
Seriously, get over it. The general election campaign has started. Obama and McCain are talking at each other, over hear head. Are you still going to be nursing your grievances in January 09, hoping that he falls off the podium when he takes the oath, so that Hillary can jump in with her hand up and continue taking the oath? Or will you rejoice that it's not Pres. McCain and four more wars. Seriously.
"Obama is a man, not the deity they worship"--nice strawman.
eriposte, I am not about to ask you if you still beat your wife. Ask you again, that is. I'm sure the police already covered that with you the other night when they got the 911 call.
Posted by at May 17, 2008 03:06 PMB. Hussein Obama is like any politician, he has a string of lies as long as any other politician.
He has yet to explain his ties to one of Saddam Hussein's money launderers Nadhmi Auchi. Source of the "loan" for Obama's estate.
For a young guy, he sure has a bundle of connections to the Chicago Outfit, domestic and foreign terrorists.
Of course most Obama supporters jumped on board the train wreck before they could even spell his name.
Posted by Markle at May 17, 2008 04:59 PM