An extreme Israeli regime? Which world are you living in. Isn't this the same Israeli government which withdrew from Gaza. Gave the Palestinians a chance to show what they truly wanted, to rule and control Gaza and as they wanted. What do they do? The kill their own, they preach hatred and antisemitism, deliberately target civilians, cut electricity to their own people, starve their own people in order to influence public opinion. Is it extreme for Jews to try and defend themselves?
Posted by dcc at May 20, 2008 01:19 PMdcc,
that's about as rose-tinted a description as would be possible. let's start with israel's continuing to expand settlements in palestinian lands in the west bank. let's talk about israel's preventing aid from getting into gaza. let's maybe mention lebanon. yes, pulling out of gaza was a rare positive step, but it wasn't taken by olmert, was it?
Posted by Turkana at May 20, 2008 01:28 PMits not rose tinted its fact. I won't defend the settlements and neither will most Israelis either but to believe that is the cause of suicide bombings, a refusal to make peace is just pure wishful thinking. look at when the aid was prevented from getting into gaza, it only happened after deliberate attacks make by hamas or other terrorist groups such as el asksa brigades. they are attacking the crossings and the supply trucks in order to force the closure of the crossings. In lebanon, who attacked who? who crossed the border and killed and kidnapped israeli solders? it didn't have to happen. if hizballah wanted the border quiet it would have stayed that way.
Posted by dcc at May 20, 2008 01:35 PMHe was there for one last suck-off of Saudi kings and to celebrate the creation of Israel...although those two things seem to contradict one another.
Posted by Jim DeRosa at May 20, 2008 01:40 PM"...why we can't afford to allow the wounds of the long primary season to prevent us from ending Republican rule of the White House"
Oh sooo saccharine! Why don't you contribute to the process by shutting up?
Posted by at May 20, 2008 01:44 PMThe Israelis were the first in line to declare the Hamas election win "unacceptable" and immediately began work to destabilize the first newly elected leadership the Palestinians ever had. Because of Hamas's "charter", not their actual stated positions.
And our pinhead president, having essentially personally demanded Palestinian elections as the next "step" in the New Middle East Birthin' (tm), immediately shit-canned his "democracy" policy because our lil' buddy Israel found the unquestioned winner unacceptable.......AIPAC's doing? or just more Bushco incompetence and thrashing about? Historians will have to decide.
Bush's "diplomacy" will go down in history as the most idiotic, damaging and incoherent in a century----I'd be hard pressed to name even an arguable "challenger". He's simply nonpareil...
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 01:44 PMshow me how the hamas has not tried to live up to its charter? why the quotation marks, it lives by its charter when it comes to the destruction of israel. in what ways is it only on a "charter" and not a goal that they are actively trying to accomplish. That being said I have to agree with you about bush but then I suffer a severe case of bush derangement syndrome.
Posted by dcc at May 20, 2008 01:49 PManonymous who is not really anonymous:
because i enjoy dialogue with toddlers such as yourself.
Posted by Turkana at May 20, 2008 01:49 PMdcc,
that's a false argument. no one ever said the new settlements were the cause of the bombings. but they do promote the idea that kadima wants a "greater israel." of course hamas has shown no interest in peace, but neither has kadima. that's sort of my point- the most extreme elements on both sides.
Posted by Turkana at May 20, 2008 01:53 PMThe time to look at Hamas's actions was in the weeks and months after it won the election, not after the years of Israeli aggression against their government and the people of Gaza, and after the fomenting of a Palestinian civil war with Fatah. Hamas has nothing to lose now, thanks to Israel's unrelenting hostility in every siutuation.
You need to actually read something about the situation by an expert sometime, dcc, and get your slop-encrusted face out of your right wing internet garbage troughs for a few minutes.
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 01:59 PMeuzoius - keep it civil. The most right wing internet site I visit is Talking Points Memo. you won't see me to the right of that. The point is I do know a lot about the middle east. I disagree with you on Israel but you wont find much else we disagree on. I think Obama is wrong on the need for mandatory national health care and the Edward's plan is the best way to go. Don't call me right wing because I disagree with you about Israel and the Palestinians. I have read a lot by experts and I have also been there and seen both sides first hand and I know what I'm talking about. Don't just read experts where you can find any position you want. Go there and see what is really happening on the ground.
Posted by dcc at May 20, 2008 02:17 PM"Oh sooo saccharine! Why don't you contribute to the process by shutting up?"
How dare you tell anyone on this Blog to shut-up. Come on big shot, put a name to your despicable behavior.
Posted by JudithOne at May 20, 2008 02:19 PM"Did anyone notice?" uh, yeah, the entire world did as Bush used the occasion to stand up in the Knesset and intimate Obama was the same as Nazi appeasers....It was 24/7 on every news cycle for days....Bush finished the trip off in a heart warming hand holding love fest with the leader of the country that sponsored 9/11.
Posted by T2 at May 20, 2008 02:31 PMAccording to the wonders of IP address identification, our anonymous poster is none other than pragmaticprogressive and tfitznc.
Tfitz, if you are going to take a shot at someone, use a name. The fact that you took a similar shot at me last night while hiding behind pragmaticprogressive after I was the one who removed you from being banned several weeks ago stings even more.
Posted by Steve Soto at May 20, 2008 02:41 PMActually, turkana, the very selection of the illiterate, shallow, ignoramus warmongering Bush as a "celebrant" for Israel's 60 year anniversary demonstrates what an extremist regime Israel is. I mean, what possible benefit can be gotten out of so honoring this lame duck fool that moderate Israelis are coming to see as having decreased Israel's "security"?
Unless, of course, they are wanting one last massive military strike by us against their endless list of "enemies" in the region. Then I suppose an appeal to egomania-boy's foolish preening makes some sense.
Or perhaps it was simply a big "Thank You, Boob"! for Bush's endless acquiesence in their projects, the Iraq invasion, the illegal wall, the unending settlements, the freeze-out of the Hamas government, the grossly disproportional bludgeoning and destrustion of Lebanon, the siege of Gaza and on and on....
dcc, when you come in with a load of propaganda blaming Hamas 100% for the current situation in 2008, its not very likely you are either objective or a progressive, at least not on foreign policy. But I'll watch your other posts with your "progressive" claims in mind.
And the idea that one must "see the situation for oneself" in order to have a valid opinion or an idea of whose views to believe is an appeal to anecdote and tourism as "expertise".
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 02:53 PMI am very disappointed to hear this information about posting under multiple "identities".
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 02:56 PM"pulling out of gaza was a rare positive step"
Not nearly as positive as the propagandists would have you believe. What they accomplished by "getting out" of Gaza while increasing their death grip on the border, the coast, as well as not entirely relinquishing their ability to murder Palestinians at will, and restrict their movement inside Gaza, was the illusion that they were divesting themselves of the responsibilities of the occupier while actually tightening their stranglehold on Gaza and its people on several fronts.
It was all smoke and mirrors folks. A performance intended to impress those who are not really paying attention to the details.
Posted by Shirin at May 20, 2008 02:59 PMIn military terms, pulling out of Gaza was like pulling out of an indefensible salient back to a shorter, easier to hold line.
But everyone is supposed to be duly impressed by any alteration in Israel's 40 year military occupation policy, I guess.
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 03:09 PMAccording to the Arabic press, Bush actually managed to royally piss off all those "moderate" Arab U.S. allies his regime has been courting to join him against Iran. Apparently the puppet despot Mubarak (whom some Egyptians insist is, in his own way, as bad as Saddam was) made sure NOT to attend Bush's speech at Sharm - a serious snub given that he was the de facto "host".
For those who don't read Arabic and want to see an English summary (with translations and good analysis too) of what some of the Arabic press are saying, check out this entry on this unique and indispensable blog. Check out some of the other recent entries, too, for more information on the Arab reaction and also to get a much better feel for what Sadr is really about.
Posted by Shirin at May 20, 2008 03:12 PM"hamas has shown no interest in peace"
Not so. Over the years Hamas has declared and honoured numerous unilateral ceasefires despite continuous murderous (literally) activity by Israel. Hamas has consistently - and unilaterally - honoured the few ceasefires Israel has agreed to and Hamas has done so in the face of repeated provocations.
Twice the Arab League has made an extremely generous offer of full acceptance, recognition, and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for Israel's simple compliance with international law and specifically UNSC 242, to which Israel is a signatory. In other words, the Arab League said withdraw to a reasonable approximation of the 1967 boundary, declare that your border, and we will welcome you to the neighborhood. Hamas has accepted that. Israel has refused to even use it as a basis for negotiation.
I could go on with more examples, but that should give you the idea.
Posted by Shirin at May 20, 2008 03:55 PMIsrael pulled out since the vast majority of the Israeli's don't want to be there, don't want to rule Gaza or have anything to do with them. Most just want to live in peace and be left alone. If you didn't follow the internal debates in Israel prior to the withdrawal then you don't know why it was done and are just following propaganda.
Don't conflate the bush suck fest by the politicians with what the people want and believe. To attribute what the israeli politicians are saying about bush to the Israeli public is the same as saying that all Americans support bush
Posted by dcc at May 20, 2008 03:59 PMDCC,
I echo Euzious's comments - sans unpleasant personal comments - on your actual knowledge of events and understanding of the issues involving Israel. You do seem to be echoing the standard "liberal Zionist" line, and you don't have all your facts correct either.
Regarding your last comment, what the "vast majority of Israelis" want or do not want has little to do with what their government does in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Whether the vast majority want to "rule Gaza" or not, Israel continues to rule Gaza, despite the fact that they have supposedly withdrawn. Whether the "vast majority" of Israelis want the settlements or not, their duly elected government is not only determined to maintain them, it is increasing the population of the settlements at a faster rate than the increase in the population inside Israel.
As for description of what started the Israeli hell against Lebanon in 2006, it is inaccurate, incorrect, and incomplete. Luckily for everyone here, I don't have time to go over it all with you, but this is a subject you would be wise to avoid with me.
I will point out one small, but very telling thing about the horror Israel committed in Lebanon - just in case anyone entertains the idea that there was a military purpose to the massive destruction and killing. And this is something I have seen with my own eyes, up close and personal. In Lebanon there are a number of instances in which there are two bridges side by side. There will be a large, modern bridge that is part of a large, modern highway, and next to it there will be a small, older bridge that is part of an older, smaller road. In case after case after case Israel destroyed only the large, modern bridge and left the smaller, older one intact. This makes absolutely no sense if the purpose of destroying the bridges was military. It makes perfect sense if the purpose of destroying the bridges was to "set Lebanon back thirty years".
And finally (at least for now), one of the purposes of mounting such a monstrous and protracted attack on Lebanon (in response to the capture - soldiers are not kidnapped, they are captured) of two soldiers, was to try to turn the Lebanese population against Hezballah. Of course, entirely predictably, that failed utterly as it has every single time Israel has attempted such a thing. In fact, it has had the exact opposite effect. Hezballah now has some very strong support even among many Maronites, including a lot who formerly were connected to the Phalange. So, it seems Israeli leaders don't learn any faster or any better than American ones do.
Posted by Shirin at May 20, 2008 04:30 PMThanks Steve. Such posters need to be exposed.
Posted by JudithOne at May 20, 2008 04:39 PMAmen Turkana, Amen
Eric in Austin
New York Times and the LA TImes.
Now there is a couple of real "credible" sources.
Please try again.
Posted by jj at May 20, 2008 05:01 PMyeah, it's ridiculous to use editorials from the nation's leading national newspapers and Der Spiegel and not jj's Wingnut Times, paid cir 1,000.
Push your head in deeper, jj, it'll fit! And always remember: Ignore Everything!
Posted by euzoius at May 20, 2008 07:30 PMI don't know which is more disgusting, Bush's remarks at the Knesset or the fact that a war criminal like Bush was invited to speak at the Knesset
Posted by Gay Veteran at May 21, 2008 10:31 AM