If you charge your battery by hydroelectric, nuclear, or wind power, you clearly are avoiding carbon dioxide emissions. But what if your utility generates its power by burning a fossil fuel? Has anyone done a study of this?
Posted by bob h at May 25, 2008 04:29 AMSince this is an open thread, I feel free to make some observations.
Upon reading Steve's post entitled "Please Leave Now" and the comments that followed it is clear that.
1.A large part of those commenter's are clinically insane.
2.The front pagers here are indeed driving this blog into the fog of of inanity.
3.True democrats are going to have to win this thing without the help of the authoritarian cult wing represented by the commenter's on that thread.
Fortunately, a cold reasoned study of the problem indicates that the fanatics, while noisy, represent a lot less of a percentage than previously thought.
I will check in from time to time on this thread and will respond to sane people if desired. There are some good people still about, and I respect their tenacity. I do not feel it necessary to respond anymore to the clinically insane.
It has become common wisdom amongst those that will carry the fight forward against the true enemies that the charade of trying to let the crazies work out their feelings is counterproductive, and they should just be ignored.
One more thing. I used to feel at home on this blog. At this point I feel like an outsider looking in. I offer my opinion strictly in that light. I only offer this opinion in the hopes of enlightening anybody who still hopes of returning sanity to this blog. I have found a home elsewhere, but I do feel a nostalgia for more rational days.
Once again, I must say I found the calls to ban Steve Soto from his own blog to be comedy gold. I will make it a point to invite as many sane people as possible over to that thread so they may laugh at the sheer lunacy of it also.
I only hope that some of you will find your way back to the daylight, but for others I suspect it is far too late.
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 25, 2008 06:31 AMAffordable cars for the Chinese and Indian market means a vehicle which costs about $3000 new. I doubt you're going to get a well-engineered hybrid like the Prius for that sort of money.
The Chinese/Indian boom going on is lifting 2.3 billion people (8 times the US population) out of bullock-plough agriculture levels of technology into a world of cellphones, Internet and paved roads. What they end up with will not be what the US commonly has today, with three-car families living in remote suburbs 30 miles from employment, schools and entertainment.
Posted by Robert Sneddon at May 25, 2008 06:43 AMAs to Mary's topic, I work in the Oil and Gas exploration business. The contractors(people who own the rigs and do the drilling) are telling their people to expect $200.00 a barrel and 5.00+ in the near future.
Anybody who cheered Reagean's tearing the solar panels off of the White House roof is an asshole. We should have supported Carter, and now we will learn the teh stupid actually does hurt.
A lot.
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 25, 2008 06:57 AMseem to me if we were expecting long term high prices than, someone would be building "oil shale" plants to extract oil from rock shale...
http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/CO3191/
Posted by a4L at May 25, 2008 07:16 AMbob h,
Generally and relatively speaking, modern plants can pollute very little compared to petrocars. Off-loading energy to more easily controlled power plants, while not green, per se, is a step in the right direction.
Posted by IntelVet at May 25, 2008 07:17 AMseem to me if we were expecting long term high prices than, someone would be building "oil shale" plants to extract oil from rock shale...
Very inefficient and messy. It takes a lot of energy to do the extraction and therein lies the conundrum.
That was always a bill of goods.
Posted by at May 25, 2008 07:25 AMif honda, et al were really serious
they would have already begun engineering for a non-carbon fuel using car, and this includes hybrids.
if global warming from co2 is as bad as scientists think, and they are beginning to think they have underestimated the effect of co2 on global heating,
then ALL carbon-based fuel for ANY use (transporation, cooking, electricity generation, hating,)
must be replaced - and fast.
Posted by orionATL at May 25, 2008 07:55 AMAs someone who has done work for the auto industry in both India and China, I don't think I buy this.
The markets are not the same. In India, there is so little infrastructure (as in, traffic lights) that having full-powered cars is just unnecessary. Tata makes several cars with teeny engines because, for the forseeable future, you're not going to want a car in India to go faster than a rickshaw anyway. So it's not clear that hybrid--and not some other technology--is the answer.
In China, several other things will begin to limit the auto market: in Shanghai, for example, one must buy a license plate at auction, and at times, those auctions have charged $4000 yearly for the license to drive the car. And, obviously, there's teh whole problem of parking which, even given China's great infrastructure, is an upward limit. China is currently limiting gas consumption wiht taxes on the size of engine, which I think it smart. But in China, I expect you'll see the elite begin to use hybrids developed in other markets because the other limits on cars will ultimately limit who can use cars in China (and trust me--I've seen a Lincoln Navigator sell in China for $100,000, with the huge taxes on it, they will pay for what they want).
In both countries, of course, you're much better off stalling hte development of the auto industry and instead further encouraging public transport.
If you want cheap hybrids to be useful in either country, you're probably best to focus on cheap hybrid TAXIs.
Posted by emptywheel at May 25, 2008 08:04 AMI think we can declare war on OPEC by cutting our fuel use by 50%. It has nothing to do with government action. We have a government of inaction. It's up to We the People to grab our pitchforks and march on OPEC.
The way to do this is collectively cut our gasoline use by 50%. We can do this by
- making your next vehicle purchase a hybrid. (This is the easiest way, since you can go from 20mpg to well over 40mpg).
- ridesharing, carpooling, vanpooling.
- mass transit.
- working from home.
- combining trips.
Mixing and matching of the above will easily reduce America's gasoline consumption by 50%. We use approximately 21 million barrels a day of oil. 13 million of that is imported, while 8 million is domestically produced. By cutting down our use by 50%, we could eliminate most of our imported oil, yet still import from non-OPEC nations.
I think the government could encourage folks by restoring the tax break for writing off the interest on car loans for cars that get over 40 mpg.
We should also prepare ANWR and other domestic sources for drilling, because we will eventually need that oil.
Orion may be right about the need to eliminate the burning of fossil fuels entirely. Some of the new hybrid plug-ins will get over 150 mpg. But the problem is that we have to plug those in to the grid. We get 50% of our electricity from coal and about 30% from natural gas. This would be devastating increase in CO2 emissions. So we'd have to quadruple the number of nuclear power plants to provide the electricity. Which is a good idea. We should start immediately.
Fortunately, watching the hybrid sales and the public outcry to build more nuclear power plants, we're getting there. It's taking us longer than the rest of the world, but we're getting there.
Posted by Muck at May 25, 2008 09:53 AMAt the start of the Busch administration America -the developer of solar cell technology- produced 40% of the world's solar cells. After 8 years of Busch we now produce 8% of the world's solar cells with most of those being shipped to Europe and Asia.
What Honda does is a moot point if we don't have an energy policy that encourages using new and existing technologies, sets strict CAFE standards, implements rational tax policy regarding business use of autos, and invests in an infrastructure that encourages mass transit. The republi-cons and democ-rats both fucked away 30 years of time to support the old business model of energy consumption and profitable inefficiency. Maybe the new Congress and President can address these issues. I doubt they will because it's going to be tough to slap them off the $-teat of the inefficient energy giants.
Posted by phidipides at May 25, 2008 09:56 AMSo we'd have to quadruple the number of nuclear power plants to provide the electricity. Which is a good idea. We should start immediately.
For the cost of 1 nuclear power plant that will take 8-15 years to come on line 300,000 homes can come off the grid and actually dump electricity into the grid at peak production. Or you could do 3 million to 5 million electric auto charging station. And the best thing is the owners of these systems won't be taking it in the ass from some energy corporation.
Posted by phidipides at May 25, 2008 10:03 AMnot to get too far afield, but just to get a sense of the carbon-fuel problems this world is facing,
much of the cooking and lighting in rural and poor latin america, south asia, and africa, and maybe east asia, too,
is done with kerosene or propane.
anybody know the relative co2 ouputs of a gas/electric hybrid and 24hrs of food and light supplied by kerosene?
i assume, without knowing for sure, that propane is slightly cleaner burning.
Posted by orionATL at May 25, 2008 10:37 AMOnce again, I must say I found the calls to ban Steve Soto from his own blog to be comedy gold.
You and me both SS.
I have a feeling a lot of these responses are coming from newbies (and repuke trolls) who don't understand that Steve is on sabbatical.
...for others I suspect it is far too late.
They are such a small portion of the voting public. Let them take their hurt feelings and piss off. I'm done with them.
Ahhh Seven. I am glad to see you my friend. I followed you on that thread, and I must say you did as good as anyone could do.
Good luck to you my friend in the future because this drama is far from played out on this blog.
Elswhere, Rossane Barr has sung the national anthem and the boos are starting.
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 25, 2008 12:03 PMChina and India have no desire to go "Green" or whatever it is. They have no obligation to do so and between them they have 2 BILLION people.
Quickest way for oil prices to drop is a Congress with an Energy Plan that actually produces energy. By passing an energy bill that opens up ANWR, the oil shale off California, the Florida oast the World will see that we are serious and oil prices will drop overnight. They are so high because the World sees that the Ugly American is so rich they are willing to pay $200.00 a barrel rather than go to the trouble of drilling their own. Drop all incentitives for alcohol, it is a bust for at least 5 - 10 years. Increase incentitives for coal to oil production. It has and can be done. Research is needed to do it in massive amounts. We have coal for hundreds of years.
Look seriously at the Air Cars which have been developed in France and Australia. The French car starts sales the first of 2009. The secret was accomplished by a former Formula I racing engine engineer who developed a far superior air compressor. With their hybrid they have a six passenger vehicle which goes 95 MPH and will go coast to coast here on a tank of gas.
I know you have forgotten but Nancy Pelosi promised that the Democrats had a plan to lower gas prices (they were $2.40 a gallon at the time)if they were elected to Congress in...in early 2006. Well Liberals, where is that plan?
Posted by Markle at May 25, 2008 01:00 PMI followed you on that thread, and I must say you did as good as anyone could do.
I don't have the time or patience to argue about the Obama/Hillary shit anymore. It's over, she's dust.
At the beginning, I had always tried to give Hillary and her fans the benefit of the doubt, mainly because I have always said I will vote for whichever candidate was the nominee. But the stupid shit stirred over him calling a female reporter "sweetie", then how they brazenly overlooked the "assasination" comment have made me see their blind unresonableness. And now, they are trying to hold their Party vote hostage becuase Hillary was treated mean in a political campaign? All the while this Nation goes in the toilet... it has me fucking furious!
People shouldn't put so much stock in political candidates, they are prone to get beaten in a political campaign by better prepared and organized candidates and campaigns.
Her biggest mistakes, putting all her eggs in the Super Tuesday basket and ignoring caucuses, but somehow that's all Obama's fault. Beaten by a candidate who had the foresight to see the value of all States and play by the rules in the 2 states who fucked up.
You have a great Memorial weekend SS. From one Veteran to a another.
Back at you brother Seven.
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 25, 2008 01:36 PMHey SnarkyShark, hang around. It can only get better, I hope, and I like reading your comments.
I can only assume that those who want Steve Soto gone, are those who haven't bothered to read the left-hand side of this Blog. Comedy gold, indeed.
Posted by Judith#1 at May 25, 2008 04:32 PMAmerica has no substantial reserves of cheap oil left--they are all tapped and declining. And even the expensive ones we have left (deep ocean, arctic, shale oil) are quite small, and none of them individually provide even a year's worth of our consumption.
The jig is up. We squandered the past 30 years, and wasted fuel like there was no tomorrow during the past 15 years of global glut. SUVs and Monster Pickups everywhere, every conservative white male and his braindead family had to had one.
Bushco went so far as invade the country with the second largest oil reserves on earth so that our oil companies could get at them. That's been a bust, and it cost us $1 trillion to boot. All poured down a rathole, gone forever. With thousands of disabled vets and their lifetime healthcare on our hands for another 60+ years.
Ignorant wingnuts like Malarkle have gorged for years at right wing internet shit troughs tellin' them that America is awash in oil, but hated lib'ruls and demonic enviros won't let us access our own massive reserves. It's a total lie, and no Big Oil company thinks it. That's why Exxon is starting to diversify out of oil---there's no future to trying to provide it.
All we can do is massive conservation efforts ASAP and start building mass transit---pity about the $1 trillion "conservatives" like the pinhead Malarkle just HAD to pour down the Iraq rathole, that could have gotten us somewhere.
No "conservative" should be listened to in the slightest on any energy issue---they are energy traitors and should have a special tax levied on them fort he rest of their lives---the shithead conservative and national decline tax.
Posted by euzoius at May 25, 2008 04:37 PMThank you Judith#1, that means a lot to me. I haven't given up on TLC, but I am not going to made to feel like a diseased leper again.
If the atmosphere improves, I think I can get a few of my new digital friends to come round and try to add to the discourse.
It used to be fun in here, and it would be great if we could all take on the thuglicans together.
I know, I've been drinking way to much of that unity kool-aid.
No one is more surprised than me ;)
Posted by SnarkyShark at May 25, 2008 04:45 PMNo "conservative" should be listened to in the slightest on any energy issue---they are energy traitors and should have a special tax levied on them fort he rest of their lives---the shithead conservative and national decline tax.
Win
Posted by at May 25, 2008 05:18 PM"It used to be fun in here, and it would be great
if we could all take on the thuglicans together."
SnarkyShark, I agree. I don't really enjoy coming here much anymore, but I still have fondness for TLC, as it was the first Blog I discovered years ago.
Posted by Judith#1 at May 25, 2008 06:21 PMI don't really enjoy coming here much anymore, but I still have fondness for TLC, as it was the first Blog I discovered years ago.
I came here after a freedom of speech issue at TalkLeft -certain ideas were not allowed. Judith (the real one, not the pseudo-judith) and Steve were the first to welcome me here. I appreciate this blog and am quite loyal to it.
Hang in there. When Obama is the official nominee and Hillary and her supporters get finished with the hair tearing and gnashing of teeth most of those who are being the biggest asshole circle-jerkers in support of Hillary will be gone. I do wish they could have expounded any substantive argument about why one should have supported Hillary. Instead, they lumbered around like Frankenstein being frightened by fire. "Rar, rar, rar, rar!! Obama-bot bad!!"
Posted by phidipides at May 25, 2008 06:48 PMWell Phidipides, we sure use to have fun, especially when you use to divulge the 'family secrets' on what really happened at the TLC conventions. So many no longer posts here, and I miss a few of them quite a lot.
I'm hanging in, but barely. I just want to get this election over and move on.
Posted by Judith#1 at May 25, 2008 07:40 PMWell if you are depressed, I hope you didn't watch "Recount" on HBO tonight.
It was nice of Loserman to insist that the military votes with no dates on them be counted anyway. Oy!
Let us never forget what the supreme court did.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 25, 2008 08:51 PMWhat would you expect from Loserman, a Republican?
He should be 'shunned' by the Democratic Party.
Believe it or not, I don't have cable, so I didn't get to view "Recount." I am sure it was depressing, as it was at that point this Country was sold out.
Posted by Judith#1 at May 25, 2008 08:58 PMAmen, Classic Judith.
And the fact that Gore's advisors wanted him to go back to the Florida Supreme Court to petition for a remedy after the US Supreme Court ruled there was an equal protection violation, and Gore decided the Nation had suffered enough further depressed me.
Of course, this just shows that Gore wasn't tuff enough to do important President stuff like invade Iraq for no reason and ignore Katrina victims for 8 days.
Posted by TIKI AL at May 26, 2008 07:23 AMeuzoius...Please step away from the Kool Aid!
Our KNOWN reserves exceed 100 BILLION barrels of oil. Today, Cuba and Red China are drilling for oil 45 miles off the Florida Coast. We haven't even been able to explore for oil off our coasts. There could easily be another discovery the size of the one off Chile just this year.
Drilling in ANWR and off our Coasts would also provide more than 700,000 jobs, not according to the Department of Labor but according to the Teamsters Union.
More than half our annual Deficit is due to the price of oil. It also exceeds the cost of the Iraq War and the war in Afganistan.
We have the bulk of the worlds coal. We have the technology and ability to make oil from coal. It needs more technology to convert large amounts.
The minute the world saw that we were finally serious about an Energy Plan, instead of outlawing light bulbs, the price of oil would plumet.
The purpose of Iraq was NOT to provide "cheap oil" to the United States. Our presence in Iraq, with one of the largest Air Bases in the world also helps stablaize the country. When Iran attacks Israel, or Israel mounts a pre-emptive strike on Iran it will be a blessing to have a base, aircraft, supplies and troops in the area.
euzoius, Thanks to for once again proving that it is impossible for the Left Wing Nutroots to make a point, only to call names.
Enjoy those freedoms Conservatives provide for you.
Al Gore lost. Get over it. Even a count after the election by the Miami Herald proved he LOST BY 527 VOTES.
If Al Gore was so great, why did he need Florida? All he had to do was win...HIS OWN STATE. ROTFLMAO
Kind of makes one think that they knew him better than anyone else.
Sorry Nutroots, the system worked. Now get on with your life.
sorry princess markle, but under Bush the price of oil has increased five fold
"passing an energy bill that opens up ANWR"
the stoopid, IT BURNS. opening up ANWR is a drop in the bucket of what we need. We cannot drill ourselves out of the problem we face.
Posted by at May 27, 2008 12:35 PMthe al Qaeda terrorists could not have damaged this country more than what has been done by right-wing tolls like princess markle
we have met the enemy and it is the American right-wing
Posted by Gay Veteran at May 27, 2008 12:38 PMNice to know. None of the Nutroots have a clue as to how much oil we have nor the effect of drilling our own oil would have on the world price.
Ignorance is indeed bliss.
Posted by Markle at May 28, 2008 03:30 PM