I sure seem to remember a lot of 'bullying' go on from the Obama campaign on Clinton fans...maybe campaign is the wrong word, substitute camp.
Democrats are not above the practice either...they tried it last year with timetables for the war in Iraq...some 40 times they tried it. Didn't work, they were on the wrong side of the issue.
That's the thing...if you're on the wrong side of issues...you give in. They gave in.
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 11:06 AMThe problem is that the Democratic Congressional Delegation is there for the power.
Do not forget that all of the spying cost money and the telecoms are being paid billions to do it all with money appropriated by the Democratic Congress. Whe have not heard a single objection or any publicity pointing out how much they are spending to spy on US.
Nearly all of the Republicans, and most of the Democrats have simply bought into th assumption that the people and all of the people's data belongs to the government and not the other way around.
Forget the Democratic Party as a whole. It is time to focus on the farsighted few in the party who really belive in Liberts. They need our support and by giving our support, over the years, we may be able to grow that small minority into a thinking and honest majority.
It will take time, effort, and a lot of money. Nothing should be spent on the likes of those who voted and will vote in favor of FISA. The FISA vote is the best litmus test we now have of who can be trusted.
Posted by Nobody at June 28, 2008 01:31 PM32 senators and 105 house members...I'll take them odds nobody. You can keep Reid, we don't want him. Democrats have always been about the power...not the people. If they were worried about the people, many things would get accomplished and their app numbers would be higher...mich higher.
That's the thing...if you're on the wrong side of issues...you give in. They gave in.
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 01:53 PM"The FISA vote is the best litmus test we now have of who can be trusted."
Nobody, I agree. If there ever was a litmus test, this is it for me. You either believe in what is written in the Constitution of the United States of America, or you don't. It's as simple as that. Bush broke the law, and when you do not pay for your criminal behavior, it tells others it is okay. So here we are, eight years later and not one politician has stepped forward to stop this illegal activity. That tells me all I need to know about the current crop of politicians in Washington, D.C.
I would like to know how many Democrats were spied on through wire taps by Bush/Cheney/Rove. That information will be used against some Democrats long after they have left their Senate and House seats. Bush may be gone soon, but the melody will linger.
Posted by Judith at June 28, 2008 01:57 PM"Democrats have always been about the power...not the people."
Peter, now you know better than to make generalization like that. Furthermore, you know that is not true. Some of the greatest social programs to support people came from the Democratic Party. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are projecting onto the Democrats what you fail to see in the Republicans.
Posted by Judith at June 28, 2008 02:06 PMnot one politician has stepped forward to stop this illegal activity.
John Conyers has.
Posted by LizDexic at June 28, 2008 02:52 PMthe Republican Party is full of big oil interests who won’t even acknowledge global warming
Well, the IPCC is full of scientists who won't even acknowledge global warming. When the scientists become deniers, who can you turn to?
Politicians are just trying to get elected. The funny thing is that in 2008, both Obama and McCain have to move to the right to get the center votes.
Posted by Muck at June 28, 2008 03:04 PMEverytime I come to think that paradox cannot demonstrate a level of willful stupidity beyond his last post, he is able to surprise me.
"What is known is that for perverse reasons practitioners of bullying like it, it’s satisfying to them as long as the immediate results are pleasing. They’ll keep doing it, no matter how sick and disastrous the results to the victim..."
Ok, riddle me this children:
1. Which side of the political spectrum is responsible for speech codes on College and University campuses?
2. Which side of the political spectrum is responsible for "hate crimes" legislation, where -- absent an actual crime -- an individual may be prosecuted for their opinions and thoughts?
In the case of question # 1, what do you think the result is for students who stray from the accepted "norms" of the Adminstration? (And, for bonus points, on which side of the political spectrum do you think these accepted norms emanate?)
In the case of question # 2, absent an actual crime, do you think it is appropriate to prosecute an individual? Why, I think that you and I would agree that it is not appropriate. But the left has identified speech and opinion that it does not like and has successfully made that speech a crime: ipso facto a "crime" has been committed and our agreement vanishes.
Think about it, children: your side of the political spectrum has made thought and opinion crime in the case of # 2 and eligible for persecution in the case of # 1. Bullying in either case, be it under the color of the legal code or under the color of administrative authority.
Posted by Bagley at June 28, 2008 03:24 PMI am reminded of one of Molly Ivins' last columns as to why she wouldn't support Hillary. She said she had had it with the fucking equivocating, triangulating bullshit that was nothing more than a sellout of true democratic principles and adopting the rethug policies. Now I watch as Obama slithers over to AIPAC and sucks their dick, caves on telecom immunity, loves him some death penalty, and I am sickened. I understand politics and all, but damnit to hell, how about some fucking balls?
Posted by angryspittle at June 28, 2008 04:24 PMI've never understood why anyone believed that Obama was a progressive in the first place. Whatever progressive policies he espoused were cribbed from Hillary or Edwards, only vaguer. His economic advisors come from the UC school of Milton Freidman's disaster capitalists. His financial support comes from Wall Street, Big Energy and Chicago corruption. He has made no secret of trolling for votes from Republicans and libertarian independents. Why has anyone been "hoping" for anything else?
Judith, try this one from Matt Stoller
"The kicker of course, is that Alston and Bird did work lobbying on immunity for telecoms on FISA, even serving as a recruitment bed for the McCain campaign. And that's what is really going on. Bribery. Tom Daschle goes in the Washington Post and makes the argument that Obama is being pragmatic by caving to big business on a core issue of civil liberties. He preaches the virtues of bipartisanship while working at a firm whose McCain supporting lawyers also support immunity for telecom interests. Meanwhile, Daschle and his wife are and did make enormous sums of money lobbying for the firms benefiting from Obama's so-called pragmatism. It's a sick, perverted, corroded system whereby perpetual political losers like Matt Bennett and affable status quo lobbyists like Tom Daschle push their agenda through journalists like Jonathan Weisman, without any disclosure whatsoever about possible conflicts of interest. And it's bipartisan and flows through the leadership of both parties."
And Obama says he doesn't do lobbyist...Daschle and wife...big influence.
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 06:20 PMA real nice Democrat...
In surprisingly blunt language, U.S. Rep. Heath Shuler complained this week of "a lack of maturity" in the U.S. House.
The North Carolina Democrat accused some of his fellow lawmakers of thinking they're "Hollywood stars" and said many of them spend more time playing politics than doing what's best for the country.
"It's quite embarrassing," he said. "I mean, I wish all constituents could sit sometimes in the gallery and just see what goes on on the House floor."
Seems this goes for Senator Dodd...he deserved that VIP treatment from Countrywide.
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 06:28 PMThen Judith...and you too Paradox...
In defiance of traditional party labels, Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, may ask the defense secretary of President George W Bush to stay on if he wins the White House.
Obama’s top foreign policy and national security advisers are pressing the case for keeping Robert Gates at the Pentagon after he won widespread praise for his performance. The move would be in keeping with Obama’s desire to appoint a cabinet of all the talents…
Richard Danzig, an adviser to Obama on national security and a former navy secretary, said: “My personal position is Gates is a very good secretary of defense and would be an even better one in an Obama administration.”…
Gates recently said Obama and John McCain, his Republican rival, were likely to take a “sensible approach” to Iraq because “the next president would suffer the greatest consequences if we do get the endgame wrong”. Retaining Gates would give Obama “cover” for adjusting his policy if necessary, while reassuring Republicans that withdrawing from Iraq would not imperil national security.
Timesonline
Turning over yet???
Keeping someone in his post, a friend of the Bush family, now there, that has to hurt after all your support to get rid of these folks!
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 06:43 PM"Authoritarian intellectual structures inherently defy change.."
You are mixing a political party with an human individual personality type and it doesn't work, Paradox. The governing problem comes when either or one party completely controls the agenda and has no balancing input from the other. That's where we get group thinkand the oppression by the mob no matter how equal a voice each crazy person may have.
We have had such crap representation these last years that we have forgotten that compromise and balance and negotiation are good things, and that give and take is what has made us successful.
I have seen way too many fascistic tendencies in both parties this primary season - but the shocker has been that the Democrats are pretty goood at it - to just lay it at the Republican's door.
Posted by the young Judith at June 28, 2008 07:22 PM
"I have seen way too many fascistic tendencies in both parties this primary season - but the shocker has been that the Democrats are pretty goood at it - to just lay it at the Republican's door."
Amen! Evidently some of the Bush policies are completely acceptable to some Democrats, including illegal spying on American citizens in the name of National Security. Maybe "impeachment is off the table" because the Democrats plan on committing the same criminal behavior we have faced for eight years with the Bush Administration. Their silence on FISA alone is making me wonder about things I would rather not consider.
Posted by Judith at June 28, 2008 08:28 PM
Seems Judith missed the middle paragraph completely. That is essential for making our government work. What many here see as caving may very well be that compromise. Democrats understood incrementalisms back in the 70's, not today. All or nothing these days. And we get the nothing.
Posted by peter at June 28, 2008 09:38 PMWell, I hope Obama turns out to be a Man of Destiny, cuz this whole canoe is about to go over the falls.
Posted by Sharkbabe at June 29, 2008 12:19 AM"What many here see as caving may very well be that compromise."
There are some freedoms that are not up for compromise, period.
Posted by Judith at June 29, 2008 01:51 AMFurthermore, compromise is just fine except in the area of criminal behavior by those holding office. I would hate to believe that impeachment is off the table because of some compromise.
Posted by Judith at June 29, 2008 01:58 AMAren't you compromising 'criminal' behavior by giving Senators Dodd and Conrad a pass? They have apparently done something very much in gize of what Abramoff was doing, buying influence, but this time the American dream has been assaulted. A million foreclosures, and these two are getting favors. A long with many more who won't be named...there's now a sub-prime six, all Democrats. Obama, Clinton, Dodd, and sure McCain just to cover bases for Countrywide/Bank of America bailout get lots of campaign monies on the backs of those foreclosures.
Posted by peter at June 29, 2008 09:19 AMI never said I gave anyone a pass, so please don't put words in my mouth. ANYONE, REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT who is involved in 'criminal' behavior should be discharged of their position, and prosecuted. Too bad the GOP doesn't believe the same way, i.e., after being convicted, Bush pardons Abramoff.
Posted by Judith at June 29, 2008 09:45 AMor Bush not keeping his word about firing anyone in his Administration involved in the outing of an CIA Agent, an act called treason by his own Father. Let's keep things in perspective Peter. Which is criminal, Dodd and Conrad getting special treatment from a loan company, or the outing of a CIA Agent and putting other covert operations in jeopardy on an international level? I think you get my drift.
Posted by Judith at June 29, 2008 09:54 AMThere are some freedoms that are not up for compromise, period.
Posted by Judith at June 29, 2008 01:51 AM
Agreed.
Posted by the young Judith at June 30, 2008 07:25 AM"...For loyal Party members like myself this constant parade of capitulation [on, for example, FISA], going on for an ungodly seven years now, is beyond galling...."
The two parties (with more exceptions on the Democratic side) are 2 sides of the same coin: the party of war, with empire abroad and korporate authoritarianism at home.
pants pissing peter: "That's the thing...if you're on the wrong side of issues...you give in. They gave in."
good old ppp, ever the boot-licking authoritarian
bagless bagley: "Which side of the political spectrum is responsible for "hate crimes" legislation, where -- absent an actual crime -- an individual may be prosecuted for their opinions and thoughts?"
The stoopid, IT BURNS. The purpose of hate crime laws is additional punishment where there was an ACTUAL crime (usually violent) committed based on prejudice.
Posted by Gay Veteran at June 30, 2008 10:37 AM