Turkana, stop misrepresenting what PUMAs believe.
We DO NOT support John McCain, he does not appeal to us, nor do we want him to be President.
We consider him the lesser of two evils. And we consider Obama the evil of two lessers.
Posted by myiq2xu at July 11, 2008 02:17 PMWhile the Obama cultists refuse to abide fair criticism of their idol...
Please start the list Turkana?
I don't know anyone who isn't an Obama supporter who hasn't critized him for his moving to the center and failure on FISA.
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 02:18 PM"When the lies and smears start rolling in."
Start? They started a while ago. The media has been going to the wall for McCain for weeks now.
The media has been peddling the RNC's "Obama is an unprincipled, lying flip-flopper" talking points while ignoring McCain's egregious changes of position.
And a number of liberal/Democratic blogs have gone along with it eagerly.
Of course, then one has the behavior of admitted fraudster concern trolls who should be acknowledged as playing for Team McCain.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 02:20 PMAnd anybody who thinks McLame, his pampered upbringing and his wife's pampered life is the lesser of 2 evils is a plain idiot!
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 02:21 PMWe consider him the lesser of two evils. And we consider Obama the evil of two lessers.
And rational people consider you contemptible.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 02:22 PMApparently, Barack is looking into being a sponsor for NASCAR.
Can an NRA membership be far behind?
What is your definition of "leadership"?
Posted by jj at July 11, 2008 02:32 PMWhat is your definition of "leadership"?
A black politician who isn't afraid to pander for votes from the NRA and NASCAR crowd?
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 02:46 PMNASCAR =! NRA.
NASCAR is a cultural sporting event, the NRA is a rightwing political operation.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 02:48 PMA week or two past, Barry Obama said something to the effect that it would take 10 years till we saw any result from off shore drilling for oil. Today, that number dropped to seven years. Thing sure do 'change' in a short few weeks. Three weeks from now will it be down to 4?
Then...where's his fund raising number?
His January results came in on Super dooper Tuesday(32M). His February results were released on March 6th(55M). And his next good month, April 3(40M+). Well, he didn't do too well for April, that number came out on May 20(31M). Then his dismal May number waited till June 20(22M).
Wonder what the hold up is for June fund raising numbers? He was able to count $55M by March 6th. Seems to me he's dragging out his June's numbers, either they're much higher than February's, or the much worse.
He may release them this weekend? Or try to bury the news well into the month again. Have y'alls disappointment hit him where it hurts?
Posted by peter at July 11, 2008 02:53 PMpeter, do you really want to have us cover all of McLame's fuck up's this week?
Thanks for the laugh petie.
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 03:02 PMNo Seven, y'all do that well enough.
Posted by peter at July 11, 2008 03:13 PMSorry Turk, until someone can explain to me why I should vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of someone like Nader, whose positions more clearly mirror my own, I'll continue to cast my vote for the best progressive candidate.
Posted by Radix at July 11, 2008 03:33 PMRational people consider Geekesq a lying shill, and ignore whatever he says.
Obama truly is a horrible candidate---probably the worst Dem. nominee in 100 years or more; however, McCain is epically bad.
This is a sad election year.
A black politician who isn't afraid to pander for votes from the NRA and NASCAR crowd?
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 02:46 PM
Sorry; Pandering is not leadership.
P;ease try again.
Posted by at July 11, 2008 04:34 PMRadix at 3:33 pm
Extremely well said. What is going on in the United States today, unlike most other advanced countries, is that one's choice is limited between the two major parties. This is reminiscent of Orwell's Animal Farm-two legs good, four legs bad. In this case, one can essentially vote for any candidate one wishes, as long as that candidate is either a Democrat or a Republican.
The Democrats and the Republicans conspired with the television executives to make sure that Nader was not going to be seen and heard during the televised debates of 2000. It remains to be seen if Nader and/or Cynthia McKinney will break through that invisible wall and be seen on stage this summer against those two corporate tools, McCain and Obama.
Posted by Erroll at July 11, 2008 04:51 PMSorry; Pandering is not leadership.
Sorry, a black man risking it around a NASCAR crowd shows he isn't afraid of anything! Pretty brave if you ask me.
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 05:37 PMMarkL,
I believe geek is the assigned resident Obama minder for this blog lately.....shilling loudly and boldly for Obama purity and advocating strongly for the ixnay on the iticismcay of The Precious because doing so only helps the other side. Personally I wish s/he'd go back to the Daily Cheeto where s/he was exhaulted, praised,and recommended to high heaven on a daily basis...but apparently there just aren't enough reality based non-believers over there for her/him to insult and troll rate so s/he had to come here and spread that Obama unity.
Personally I don't fully understand how geek thinks that the way to win or convince anyone who is teetering on the edge of support for Obama that bullying, stalking, hurling insults and blaming everyone else when people point out Obama's weaknesses and problems isn't a way to win hearts and minds...but hey whatever. Best to skip those comments and move on.
Turkana,
Once again you just soooo get it....credibility baby. And I'm sure you aren't surprised that the kewl kids are back using the Raygun rulz for this part of the election..it was predicted by many here that this is exactly what the press would do and what would happen...how convenient for McSame's BBQ lovin base to change sides now that they helped get the monster Hillary out of the way.
Posted by emal at July 11, 2008 05:55 PMPeter,
Lets not get into misspeaks when every person remotely associated with McLame is either a liar or idiot. Unfortunely the MSM is still buying into the "straight talk" crap and giving him a pass. They would rather report on Jackson than the multitude of lies and misspeak of McLame and his Decepticon Liars.
From his stance on Social Security (Privatization), lie about naming the Pittsburg Steelers during his capture, Fiorina's lies about McLame's votes on healthcare, Gramm letting the cat out of the bag on the economy and too many Faux liars too numberious to mention.
My only question is why Obama is not nailing him on this crap?
MarkL is fond of spreading rightwing lies he reads at No KKKwarter about Obama's citizenship:
Go back to St0rmfr0nt, you racist son of a cockroach.
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/pumas_are_swiftboats_darragh_murphy/
PUMA PAC.Org has been exposed. All those Democratic Posers can eat crap!
Posted by angryman at July 11, 2008 08:00 PMOf course the PUMA's are Republicans and/or racists. I've known that about that crowd for months now. They're the ones who infested Mydd putting diaries on the Rec List that called Michelle Obama a 'welfare queen.'
That bunch of lowlifes leaving DailyKos to hang out at dumps like TalkLeft was the single biggest improvement to DailyKos in its history.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 08:09 PMmyiq2xu
horsepoop - I have seen lotsa posts pushing McCain on the relevant Puma sites and got chewed out because I refuse to lockstep with that crap.
You can say whatever you want but you have to OWN it.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 11, 2008 08:18 PM
Geek - you are just so redundant.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 11, 2008 08:20 PMWhile the Obama cultists refuse to abide fair criticism of their idol...
Please start the list Turkana?
I don't know anyone who isn't an Obama supporter who hasn't critized him for his moving to the center and failure on FISA.
Posted by Seven of Six at July 11, 2008 02:18 PM
This would make more sense if you said you dont know anybody who IS a supporter who hasnt....
Turkana, before you try to read minds, maybe you should actually, you know, talk to a PUMA. Then you would find that:
1.) We are not all going to vote for McCain. *I'm* certainly not.
2.) We don't take orders. We are not Republicans. Hillary can encourage but this is not an issue that leadership on her part can solve. It is a matter of conscience and at this point is wayyyyy beyond Hillary.
3.) She didn't concede. She suspended. She didn't release her delegates.
4.) If the party wants us to vote for Obama, the best thing they can do at this point is to have a free, fair and transparent convention and allow for a knock down, drag out fight on the floor. May the best candidate win. Anything less will solidify the division in the party. Anything less and Obama will be an illegitimate candidate who did npt win on his merits while the better candidate was deliberately sidelined by the party iself.
and if THAT happens, Obama will NEVER get my vote. NEVER. And I will do everything in my power to make sure that this abomination version of the DNC does not survive this election cycle. I will not be happy until Howard Dean is exiled for life from a leadership position in it.
He will be responsible for forcing a nominee who violates every principle of the party and offends my conscience.
Any intelligent person should be calling for Dean's head for throwing away victory. Direct your attention to the person(s) responsible. Don't blame the PUMAs for sticking to their principles and refusing to go along with the Republicanation of the Democratic party. We will have none of it.
I think we see in this thread the worst of both worlds.
Posted by andgarden at July 11, 2008 09:10 PMI think we see in this thread the worst of both worlds.
If someone can find an example of me saying that the mere act of criticizing Obama for his FISA vote was a bad thing, go ahead and post a link, and I'll never post another comment here.
There are such people, of course. But they're not in this thread.
But, of course, false equivalency isn't just a game the media can play. Because people who spread rightwing racist slurs against the Democratic nominee and those who advocate on his behalf are just as bad. David Broder told me so.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 09:32 PMandgarden - you can see that in just about any thread on any site wherein two different candidates supporters show up, niether of whom have the smarts or imagination to move beyond the same old sh*t.
Riverdaughter - you are getting stale.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 11, 2008 09:54 PMThere are about five different ways I could respond to you Geek, but you're not worth it.
There are about five different ways I could respond to you Geek, but you're not worth it.
I know, I know. You don't talk to people who respect Barack Obama as a human being. Which is why you hang around people like Turkana, Armando and their PUMA fanclubs.
Because, only people who loathe Barack Obama and call him a lying sellout fraud can be honest critics of him. Turkana and Armando say so.
Anyhow, those who are supporting the party's nominee will have to take on McCain and media with out y'all. Because it's perfectly clear that your crowd would rather spend a lifetime trashing Obama and complaining about him than spend ten minutes trying to help him defeat McCain.
Ironic that y'all talk about the need for partisanship but are unwilling to lift a finger against McCain because you think Obama is icky.
andgarden - you can see that in just about any thread on any site wherein two different candidates supporters show up, niether of whom have the smarts or imagination to move beyond the same old sh*t.
Actually, I have nothing but nice things to say about Senator Clinton and her issue-based supporters who have now committed to putting a Democrat in the White House.
The PUMAs are agents of McCain and thus the enemy.
Posted by Geek, Esq. at July 11, 2008 10:54 PMHave fun talking to yourself Geek.
Posted by andgarden at July 11, 2008 11:31 PMA big problem is that McCain's gaffes must be balanced in the media with one from Obama. If Obama had none, then McCain's don't get reported.
Posted by bob h at July 12, 2008 04:14 AMthe young Judith: stale or not, you still have to deal with us and calling us stale does not endear us to your candidate, oddly. I'm surprised that you haven't seen the connection yet. And they said *Hillary* supporters were dumb.
Posted by riverdaughter at July 12, 2008 04:53 AMActually Riverdaughter, neither you nor your blog represent me, a Clinton supporter.
And I hate to break it to you, but I dont have to deal with you and certainly not anybody who calls themselves "PUMA". Cripes, I'd have to breathe in too many late night bar fumes for that nonsense to sound attractive.
the young Judith (tyj), Our new grammar Nazi! ;)
Thanks for the help, English wasn't my top subject. But then if you knew my history here you would have known that.
Posted by Seven of Six at July 12, 2008 08:50 AMWell said young Judith: Agree with you whole-heartedly. The only question is I wonder if Obama supporters would have been so outraged had he not won the nomination? Maybe we would have...I dont know.
Many are upset that the DRC didnt take the nomination from Obama and give it to Clinton. This is weird. Why do they think Clinton is entitled or that this is her turn? Lets consider for a moment that the dems have a floor fight and Hillary prevails...what next? Can she beat McCain after ripping the democratic party apart? The problem here is many Clinton supporters who are still decenting want McCain to win so that Hillary can challenge in 2012. To me that is not an option. Think of the country under MCLAME...need I say more.
oh 7of 6, your meaning was unclear. Just helping you out. Of course, you could have meant what you wrote there but it would have a different meaning. I wont say anything in future.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 12, 2008 09:24 AMangryman, the irony of your comment (and your posting name) is that Obama peebles won and some are outraged at Clinton and supporters like me anyway. I think most of them just want to go on chat boards and rant anonymously because they have no power in real life. Makes me yawn, frankly. If it werent Clinton (and it is hilarious that it still is) it would be some other sh#t that makes them feel impotent.
Not all, of course. But enough to notice.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 12, 2008 09:30 AMyoung Judith - again I think you are dead on. As a former Edwards supporter I was angry because I didnt think Edwards was being given a fair shot in the media. When Edwards dropped out I got even more pissed and vowed not to vote of either Clinton or Obama. As you can see I have gotten over it. Hell when I think about, no politician has ever been 100 percent what I want.
Posted by angryman at July 12, 2008 11:06 AMyes, I could see that when you referred to Obama supporters as "we".
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 12, 2008 12:38 PM>The other form of derangement deludes itself into believing that a compromised and compromising politician is as bad, or worse, than a truly deranged one.
Uh, no. I'm well aware that McCain will be a worse President than Obama. But Obama will be quite bad enough to revive the fortunes of the GOP, while McCain will further damage the GOP brand. I'm not interested in 4 years of a faux Democrat followed by another generation of Wingnuts; I'd rather 4 years of another Wingnut followed by a generation of Democrats. An awful choice undoubtedly, but the fault of those who foisted Obama upon us, not those who tried to point out the Unity Pony had no clothes.
Posted by tdraicer at July 12, 2008 06:29 PMtdraicer - we get it. you want to eff the country for it's own good. got it.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 12, 2008 07:48 PMRight now I'm biding my time to see what I plan to do. I find myself sympathizing with the PUMAs. I think this primary cycle was a disgrace and the DNC deserves to reap what it has sown. The only way I seriously see myself voting a Democratic ticket is with Hillary Clinton on the ticket.
Furthermore, the more Obama opens his mouth the more I find myself questioning myself pulling that lever for him.
Not liking McCain isn't enough for me to vote for Obama(he needs to give me a reason to vote for him other than he ain't McCain and he ain't doing so well so far). Especially when I know that voting for Obama is like telling the DNC and the bullies and slanderers that how they handled this cycle was appropriate, when it wasn't. I want a way to make it clear that it isn't, wasn't and ain't ever gonna be.
At the end of the day I know there are going to be people saying that "I" will be responsible for McCain being in the WH. Well, I'm willing to take on responsibility for it but the full responsibility will rest on Obama (who failed to deliver that unity and change) and the DNC(wh managed to have someone claiming neutrality shilling for a particular candidate and disregarding 2 states in the process to ensure the contest ended as it did.
>tdraicer - we get it. you want to eff the country for it's own good. got it.
Clearly you don't. But let's try again; reading comprehension takes practice, after all. I believe Obama will be a failed President. So will McCain. Given the choice of two failures, I'll take the one that can be laid against the Right over the one that gets blamed on the Left. I would very much prefer a successful Democratic Presidency, but (in my not so humble opinion) I haven't been offered a reasonable possibility of one.
Posted by tdraicer at July 12, 2008 10:20 PMYeah rrrrrright TD. I have been reading you post the same thing over and over and it sums up to you saying eff the country for 4 more years with an admittedly worse choice (mcCain)so supposedly your dream of that somehow hurting the GOP will come to fruition. You much be good at Yoga cause that is quite a reach. You said he was worse than Obama but you want him as President. Gee, that's smart.
As for reading comprehension requirements to read you, keep flattering yourself. You aint deep. You are as boring as Riverdaughter now.
Congrats! And bye bye.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at July 13, 2008 10:30 AM
Turkana, and everyone else.
I have made a decision to not vote for Obama. It is a given I will never vote Republican. So McOld won't be getting my vote, either.
I doubt that Obama will pick Hillary Clinton as his running mate (even though there is now an article up at rawstory reporting that she is still in the running, as per Obama's own words, but as we all know, Obama's own words can't be depended upon--see the FISA BS).
With that all in mind, the best, most qualified, and still the only person with "the vision thing" of any realistic spectrum of any of the candidates, Republican or Democrat that have been running, the best of everyone is and remains Hillary Clinton.
I will be putting her name in the Presidential slot on my ballot in the write-in effort section of the ballot come the Autumn election. I will be voting Democrats in for all the rest of the slots on the ballot. Without equivocation, without hestitation.
But not Obama.
Obamabots have been attempting to tell everyone to "talk to the hand." (And they still haven't examined him very closely, even now.) Well, you're going to be talking to my hand, and my hand (and a lot of other Pennsylvanian's hands as well) is going to be speaking loudly and clearly in the Autumn election.
We'll see what happens at the end of next month, at the Convention. But I am not going to be holding my breath. But all we need is about 175 delegates to reconsider their support for Barack Obama, change their support vote, and Hillary wins.
Because Obama can't garner the nomination outright.
But there are always "wild cards" in this political business. Let's see if the Bush/Cheney/Addington cabal get their way, and the US and Israelis attack Iran the week after the Olympics are concluded. (Sounds extreme? This upcoming week, and the weeks following, there will be high-level Israeli delegations visiting Bush, Cheney, the Joint Chiefs, Rice, and so on.)
Let's see if the Sinclair issue gains traction, or not. (Yes, the issue is still around.)
Let's see if whether Obama will talk to directly about the issues and claims in regards to his upbringing while he was living in Indonesia with the Soetero family. Such as attending mosque services, and learning the Quran in the Arabic, and having massive swaths of it known by rote. I doubt that they would let non-Muslims attend mosque services regularly, and learn about the Quran in Arabic. (Obama claims he was never a practicing Muslim. I am not worried whether he is Muslim, but whether if he was Muslim, why he would deny it currently.)
Let's see if these things shake out.
I would encourage Steve to get someone who is well-versed in Islam and ask them to field such questions as:
If one is a practicing Muslim, can one just walk away from the religon, and then sign up for attendance at Christian fundamentalist/evangelical services (say, in Chicago), and declare themselves Christian, and that is accepted as an authentic religous conversion from Islam?
What is the viewpoint of Islamic scholars in regards to Americanized Christianity? Do they consider fundamentalist Protestantism as authentic Christianity? (As say, juxtaposed to Roman Catholicism.)
If these could be asked of a Muslim scholar, the responses that they would give would be most helpful and informative.
Posted by Troubled American at July 13, 2008 12:56 PM