I can see his point if: 1)the plan is to bring the telecoms all before congress to find out what happened 2) The result of the hearings brings criminal charges against the Bushies.
Of course this would be during the next congress because the Justice Department no longer functions under the rule of law.
Scratch what I learned in HS Civics and AM Gov in college. Maybe we should re-write the constitution to recognize the "IMPERIAL PRESIDENT" who is above the law or makes them up as he goes.
Posted by angryman at July 18, 2008 11:20 AMAren't there lawsuits against the Bush admin that could still progress even if the telecoms have immunity?
Posted by CG at July 18, 2008 11:26 AMThrowing dust to hide the fact that the Democrats folded like an accordion. Democrats have given Bush all he wanted, and for the life of me I don't see how any Democrat can defend Hoyer, Pelosi Reid and the rest of the Democrats that day in and day out sell their vote. The Republicans make no bones about who they work for. I honor them for that.
Posted by prabhata at July 18, 2008 12:16 PMI'm a lifelong conservative activist and I'm backing Barack Obama
I'm a lifelong Republican - a supply-side conservative. I worked in the Reagan White House. I was the chief economist at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for five years. In 1994, I helped write the Republican Contract with America. I served on Bob Dole's presidential campaign team and was chief economist for Jack Kemp's Empower America.
This November, I'm voting for Barack Obama.
...
John McCain would continue the Bush administration's commitment to interventionism and constitutional overreach. Obama promises a humbler engagement with our allies, while promising retaliation against any enemy who dares attack us. That's what conservatism used to mean - and it's what George W. Bush promised as a candidate.
...
Even if my hopes on domestic policy are dashed and Obama reveals himself as an unreconstructed, dyed-in-the-wool, big-government liberal, I'm still voting for him.
These past eight years, we have spent over a trillion dollars on foreign soil - and lost countless lives - and done what I consider irreparable damage to our Constitution.
If economic damage from well-intentioned but misbegotten Obama economic schemes is the ransom we must pay him to clean up this foreign policy mess, then so be it. It's not nearly as costly as enduring four more years of what we suffered the last eight years.
Posted by Anonny at July 18, 2008 12:41 PMHe's on a mission alright, that's the problem I have with Ford.
He's 25% politician and 75% godbot.
Posted by TIKI AL at July 18, 2008 12:47 PMWow, did you read angry's two step process? Forgone conclusions, no need for hearings, everything is criminal. Y'all don't want justice, nor any appearance of due process. Find them guilty and lock them up. I seem to remember German courts having similar findings in the twenties, thirties, and forties. And the liberties y'all take by using the word "constitution". Taking your narrow understanding and wanting it applied broadly.
Posted by peter at July 18, 2008 01:19 PMY'all don't want justice, nor any appearance of due process. Find them guilty and lock them up. I seem to remember German courts having similar findings in the twenties, thirties, and forties.
Pot, meet kettle. Angryman may be making comments to that effect, but your fucking god damn authoritarian political party has actually argued in court, and gotten a district court ruling that says the President can permanently imprison any citizen without due process or a right to trial. No 6th amendment. No Habeas Corpus. Nothing.
God, you are so stupid peter. Don't you see that your own party has done what you just abused Angryman for advocating?
Posted by Anonny at July 18, 2008 01:28 PMwelcome to the wacky world of repuke logic...PPP is not merely as stupid as a bag of rocks he suffers from puke party delusion syndrome...acquired by supporting, excusing, and apologizing for the criminals that make up the puke party....give peter the award for most deluded....
Posted by headxray at July 18, 2008 01:48 PMgive peter the award for most deluded....
Posted by headxray at July 18, 2008 01:48 PM
Funny...he makes quite a fool of you most of the time...your claim to fame is being a potty mouth...find a job yet?
Posted by jj at July 18, 2008 02:13 PMjj, do you and peter live together and share everything together? Come on Peter, you really are jj aren't you?
Posted by Judith at July 18, 2008 02:17 PMN o o o...have no idea who Peter is...nor Bagley..what I do know is that you folks have a very hard time with both of them..it is fun to see. Other than about 2 of you, and that is marginal, you very much struggle to respond intelligently.
Your answer is to ban them.
How silly. You should be better than that.
Posted by jj at July 18, 2008 05:25 PM
There are numerous laws that were broken here---Bushco has already admitted that it violated FISA by wiretapping covered US persons without a warrant. That was admitted fairly quickly in the scandal, and now (another) judge has torpedoed Cheney and Addington's "rationale": that CinC Pinhead doesn't have to follow any laws he thinks "affect" his Royal Commandership duties. There was no legal basis for this argument whatever. Every judge presented with it has rejected it---even Bushco judges!
So Bush and Cheney and Addington have violated a criminal statute.
Telecom immunity involved violations of FISA and a variety of telecommunications laws involving direct access to communications and data. No civil claims can now be brought by anyone whatever for the telecoms (quite knowing) violation of these telecom data laws.
As to whether criminal liability has been immunized as well, I have to say I've never seen a discussion of that. It's hard to believe the telecom lawyers would have left that little "benefit" out of the recent capitulation legislation (Thanks again, Dems!)
The bottom line is that we likely will never find out what actually happened here, and we absolutely will now NEVER have a ruling by any federal court that Bushco both violated FISA and suborned the violation of numerous federal laws. That was what Bushco and "conservatives" were wild to get and that's what the Dems gave them. Think Repubs would have ever done such a thing for a criminal Dem president?
The Dem "leaders" tossed away the progressives' ONLY victory against the criminal lawbreaking Bush regime, and tossed away posterity's ability to know the level of lawbreaking that this Repub executive undertook. And eliminated the only route for judicial accountability for the Bushco criminals. For nothing.
Posted by euzoius at July 19, 2008 06:20 AM"twenties, thirties and forties"
Hitler assumed power in 1933, dimwit. The Weimar Republic had a perfectly fucntioning court system in the twenties.
And as Anonny states, your Fuehrer Cheney has argued that he has the power to declare American citizens and legal aliens "enemy combatants" and militarily detain them indefinitely. In fact, the extreme wingnut US Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, sitting en banc, has just this week ruled (5-4) that Der Fuehrer has the "right" to indefinitely detain citizens without need of filing charges, so our courts have descended (under "conservative" judges) to the level of Nazi tribunals.
This ruling will be appealed, but who knows if the Supreme Court will even agree to hear the case. All of our legal rights not to be rounded up and put in a military brig without charges now depend upon what one conservative justice, Justice Kennedy, thinks of this. One man decides what level of authoritarianism this country will operate under. After 200 years, the constitution is looking like a pretty fragile system, thanks to "conservatives".
That's what you work for and celebrate, peeter putsch, you vile un-American turd.
Posted by euzoius at July 19, 2008 07:33 AMEuz, the National Socialist German Workers Party was influencing the courts in the twenties and before it's rise to the Kanzler's office. Any reference to Weimar functioning there is wrong. They were weak and ineffective, even Hindenburg!
Posted by peter at July 19, 2008 09:34 AMYeah, that's why the German courts acquited 3 out of 4 of the Reichstag "arsonists", enraging Chancellor Hitler and Goering. And why the Nazis then created a "People's Court" run by the executive, i.e. dictator.
And of course you ignore the main point about OUR new "People's Courts" allowing indefinite military detention of citizens by Fuehrer Cheney, which of course you favor as a force-worshipping, authoritarian scum.
Posted by euzoius at July 19, 2008 09:45 AMWOW Pretty emotional people here.
Harold Ford was trying to explain to Markos and all those listening that his judgement wasn't as good as he thought it was.
It was MARKOS who convinced everyone to vote for Jim Webb and Claire McCaskill in 2006, as good "progressives" who aren't like that nasty old DLC.
And yet, come to find out, ole Webb and McCaskill , along with Obama, voted FOR FISA, which means they align more with the centrist DLC than they EVER did with Markos.
And FISA passed.
So, nobody really paid any attention to Markos, did they?
Next time Markos recommends a candidate, be sure and do your own research.
good old pants pissing peter and jarjar jj, always licking their master's boot
Posted by gay veteran at July 19, 2008 02:04 PMHarold Ford is every bit part of the problem as King George is.
Glenn Greenwald: "...the idea that the Rule of Law is only for common people, but not for our political leaders and Washington elite, is pervasive among the political and pundit class, in both parties. While common Americans should be imprisoned in record numbers when they break the law, the worst that should happen to the political elite when they commit crimes is that they should be voted out of office. That's the dominant mentality governing how our political system works...."
Posted by gay veteran at July 19, 2008 02:19 PMWell, of course Greenwald is right, gay veteran.
But while you condemn Ford , you must also condemn Webb, McCaskill, Pelosi, Hoyer, and Obama.
If you haven't the courage to do same, then your posts are complete fluff.
Posted by Mary at July 21, 2008 09:45 AM