Those of us who've been paying attention have realized Al Sadr is the key in Iraq. If he says 'fight,' they fight. If he says 'peace,' then it's peace.
Surge or no surge.
Regardless of how the policy wogs here proffer their explanations for the Propaganda Press-Corps.
Posted by Moses at August 11, 2008 02:53 PMIt's always been the Iraqis. They have a huge manpower advantage (and a population armed to the teeth) and they are the people who were invaded. Only US Airpower has kept our forces afloat. Mahdi has bided his time and played his cards. So have all the Iraqi factions. The Bush/McCain mistake is that they think they are the "smart ones". They are not. They stepped into a Briar Patch that has taken 5+ years and 3000 + US lives for nothing. Iraq won't win this "invasion"...they've lost too many citizens and property. But neither will the US. Clearly, the Surge was just a speed bump and accomplished nothing substantial. A US pullout is what is left. Everyone knows it.
Posted by T2 at August 11, 2008 04:48 PMgotta fix it: Sadr/Mahdi Army
Posted by T2 at August 11, 2008 04:49 PMgotta fix it: 4000+ US lives for nothing.
Posted by euzoius at August 11, 2008 05:07 PMthanks euz.
Posted by T2 at August 11, 2008 05:27 PMSadr's over rated, Progressives just got to have their heroes and Sadr's it right now. He's the only way y'all will get your way now isn't he. His capability is over rated. His number are inflated.
Posted by peter at August 11, 2008 05:41 PMT2, Let's don't forget the millions thrown at the Sunni Awakening folks. Money does amazing things, like having people lay down their arms or even fight for you.
Posted by Seven of Six at August 11, 2008 05:47 PMHe's the only way y'all will get your way now isn't he.
Of course not, you big silly. Bush is negotiating with the Iraqis, Iranians, North Koreans, and learned he has no power on the World stage. You guys took care if it. Thanks!
Posted by phidipides at August 11, 2008 05:48 PMHow many times now has Moqtada Sadr "re-structured" his "army?"
How well did the last "re-structuring" work out?
Posted by Bagley at August 11, 2008 06:03 PMHow many times now has Moqtada Sadr "re-structured" his "army?"How well did the last "re-structuring" work out?
Posted by Bagley at August 11, 2008 06:03 PM
He's playing for the end game -- post-occupation power. After playing for the beginning (expand power-base) then the middle (consolidate). That you don't recognize the three phases through which he has passed only indicts you.
Posted by Moses at August 11, 2008 06:08 PMpants pissing peter and jarjar jj need to stick to blowing goats
Posted by gay veteran at August 11, 2008 06:18 PM"That you don't recognize the three phases through which he has passed only indicts you."
May I quote you in the future?
Posted by Baglley at August 11, 2008 06:31 PM706, yes. The "Surge" has been as much about the "surge" of money into the pockets of hostile Iraqi factions as anything. Bush has literally paid them to stop shooting at our forces. Again, they are smart, they get CNN, they know the US population is against the Occupation. Can't blame them for getting the bucks...My guess is that all Iraqi's have November 3 circled on their calendar. And for a bunch of them, 100 year McCain sounds pretty good for the pocketbook. But for more of them, 16 months and we are out sounds better. That is the battle going on in the Iraq government now. It is all up to them. Always has been.
Actually I did see this. If it wasn't here, it was on HuffPo. Gotta know where to get your news.
Posted by CG at August 11, 2008 06:50 PM"Money does amazing things, like having people lay down their arms or even fight for you."
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the so-called awakening is fighting for the US. In fact, those guys were fighting so-called Al Qa`eda way back back when the progandists were calling them "foreign fighters" and well before they started labeling all resistance "Al Qa`eda". They were being seriously hampered by the occupation forces, and numerous times starting as far back as 2004 they began approaching the Americans to as for assistance. The Americans, of course, rebuffed them completely.
It's not the Americans those guys are fighting for. It's lots of things, but it's not the Americans.
Posted by Shirin at August 11, 2008 09:57 PM"for more of them, 16 months and we are out sounds better."
T2, Iraqis are realistic and know you won't be out in 16 months, even if you don't. They understand very well that "withdrawing combat troops" does not mean you'll even be remotely out. They understand, in fact, that while fewer of them are likely to be murdered by Americans on their way to work, the aerial attacks that destroy cities are likely to continue.
Posted by Shirin at August 11, 2008 10:04 PMIgnorant, unimaginative, truly simple minded "folks" willlove this, but then, nobody cares what they "think" anyway.
It's going to turn out that al Sadr is actually the better actor in all of this, far better than any of the stooges and tools and grasping politicians that BushCo has paraded before us. Much better than al Maliki and ol whats his name, Chalabi. And that, predictably, the US Government will miss the opportunity once again to side with the guy that might actually get things to work.
We did it with Ho Chi Minh, the Iranians just before they joined the idiot's axis of evil, and many others far too numerous to mention.
What do I mean by the better actor, some (!!!!!) might ask. Well, I mean someone who is more concerned with the outcome for his people and her country than with accruing power and position. Which doesn't mean that she isn't interested in power and position for his self, just that they have a committment to their country greater than to themselves.
Simpletons use arguements that try to reduce the issues of state to that of personality, as if one man or woman can solve all problems. I think they cower under the banner of the Daddy Party.
That, of course, insults men and women pretty uniformly. The more accurate banner would be the Sheep and Lemming Party, the problem being that a lot of people get tangled up with their ignorance and self destructive ways.
But back to al Sadr. He's not a saint, then again, saints are manufactured for a price by those fine fellows in the Vatican, so who would want that anyway? But he has been remarkably restrained during Bush/Cheney's invasion and occupation, I think Saddams Sunni's other radicals have carried out more attacks against US forces, and of course, after Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld created the scenario for them, al Quaeada too.
But the Government and their willing fool tools will continue to demonize him, like they do Hamas and Hezbollah, when the better way is to work with them, talk to them, deal with them, seduce them. It's pretty well established that you can't reason with people by threatening them, no matter how loudly you yell they won't listen.
But if you establish dialogue, at some point you can discuss hard truths, hard realities. And turn the IRA away from violence. You can get the PLO to sign a deal, never mind that Arafat succumed to his petty fears.
But we shall see, when we leave Iraq, and we will, and with precious little to show for it except a return to some kind of order after we stomped on the ant hill. Of course it won't be the order the idiots were hoping for, and it won't be an order for our benefit, but it will be some kind of order, and if we were smart, we would hope for the idealist's influence and not the greedy politicians.
Posted by Duckman GR at August 11, 2008 10:18 PMSee folks, the Duckman proves my point. Sadr is a Democrat's hero. This person even elevates Hamas and Hezbollah to heroic status. Of course, this person could be funning with me here. Look at the heroes, IRA, PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah, all bad actors and this Democrat or progressive equates them to those American revolutionaries that brought us independence from England.
"when the better way is to work with them, talk to them, deal with them, seduce them. It's pretty well established that you can't reason with people by threatening them, no matter how loudly you yell they won't listen."
How telling is this statement? In 1938 there was an English Prime Minister that thought the same thing. Churchill had to rescue the English people from his folly and it only cost some 38 million plus their lives in the European theater.
Sadr is over rated. His forces have been over rated. The myth of the 60,000 man Mehdi Army never was that powerful. Iraqi's are better served heading along the path that America has set them on. Our soldiers have acted valiantly and their mission just. And we will leave just like we left all other places we've been involved in.
Posted by peter at August 12, 2008 04:03 AMWho is this Peter, and why doesn't his brain work?
Bagley, I don't give a damn if your quote me or not. Your incapacity to recognize the classic pattern of growth associated with any actor in a the growth or re-birth of a state is simply not my concern. I only point it out so that people can see the shallowness and vapidity of your opinions.
And we will leave just like we left all other places we've been involved in.
Yep, with our tail between our legs, our status in the world diminished, our blood and treasure spent, and with a crowd of goatblowers whining "why couldn't we just kill them all and take over?" Anyone surprised petr mcgoatblower's dream for Iraq is the same as bin Laden's?
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 05:32 AMThere you have it on full display, predicted and fulfilled, all in about 6 hours.
No mention of heroic anything. Quite the opposite actually. Incapacity to comprehend well researched history, let alone obfuscated to the nth degree current events.
A perfect demonstration why these traitorous scumbags should never be believed or listened to. I only pay any attention to try to expose not their stupidity, that's done for me, but the fullness of their mendacity and treachery so that less involved or less frequent readers can taste how desparately these wads wish to stab you in the back and steal your purse or wallet or both.
No matter how much effort they might make to push an argument, research it, link it (yeah, right), it doesn't matter, because they are made without any desire to inform or debate, merely to distract you from the cowardly thief in the night creeping through an open window to steal that which you have worked for. And I spit on them for it.
Posted by Duckman GR at August 12, 2008 06:41 AMNicely said, Duckman. And you're right about the inability to link; petr McGoat's "sources" are usually either Instapuke or Malkin, which pretty much shows the depth of his gullibility.
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 07:07 AMNicely said??
A perfect demonstration why these traitorous scumbags should never be believed or listened to. I only pay any attention to try to expose not their stupidity, that's done for me, but the fullness of their mendacity and treachery so that less involved or less frequent readers can taste how desparately these wads wish to stab you in the back and steal your purse or wallet or both.
Who are you even talking about? Peter? Is it Peter's traitorous mendacity and treachery that you decry? What are you, a pirate?
And I also wanted to add about statements like this:
So, there's this Olympics thing. And this John Edwards thing. And in local news, someone beat up a pit bull.
Fuck's sake, we get it. You bloggers are so more highly evolved and literate than the ignorant masses. Can we stow it now? That's why we're reading this instead of flipping through People magazine.
Not that I don't have five minutes in my day to skim the "other" news too. But the pretentiousness on this site has been getting pretty thick the last couple of days.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at August 12, 2008 08:01 AMHey! Duckman's a pal - be nice, you!
You want pretentious, try this shit on for size:
Without Blinding Flashes of Clarity - Those all to brief moments in our lives when our brains organize a bunch of discrete dots into a whole. An image of clarity that may either be completely new and novel or crystallize the previously fuzzy. The truly great minds always have such experiences and at a macro-level that is denied to we inferior beings. Our experiences are limited to the more mundane, less momentous or less insightful. We see nothing more than the dots strewn around or constructed by others and our individual powers of insight depend on the existence those dots. The fewer dots required for the neural reorganization, the greater the flash.This is the stuff of both delusion and insightful perception, and sometimes the difference between the two isn't clear. When communicated to others, the overwhelming initial response is that the speaker is mad. Time, and usually more dots, sorts out the difference between the two. But sometimes time moves slowly which is why creationism remains so alive today long after Darwin published "The Origin of Species" which was long after he had that initial flash. Real insight also takes time to coherently organize before presenting it to others; delusions spew out quickly with little to no logical or rational mediation.
I know it's hard to believe, but it got worse after that - talk about "dots" and shit. It was bad enough trying to keep my stomach down just reading that crap, but finding it on the front page here mortally offended me. Luckily, that poster is long gone now. Still, I'll never forgive her for exposing my beautiful mind to such tripe.
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 08:49 AMWTF was that?? And it was full of grammatical errors.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at August 12, 2008 09:01 AMThat was just the opening paragraphs of a screed about how we're gonna attack Iran any day now - last June. You see how that turned out, btw. By the end of it, I wanted to gouge out my eyes with a melon-baller. Just remember those phrases, next time you want to call someone on their flowery prose. It could be worse! The funniest thing about it, though was that the author swore she wasn't describing an "epiphany," because - get this - epiphanies are only about good things. Oy!
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 09:22 AMOf course he will lay his weapons down if we agree to get out. Then he can pick them back up once we're gone and have a much easier time.
Posted by Tex at August 12, 2008 10:28 AMuRcoyote: ...she could have posted that crapola over at Richard Dawkins and gotten some free anal laser surgery.
Posted by TIKI AL at August 12, 2008 10:31 AMTIKI, she could submit it to the website that keeps track of the worst opening lines in history - then she'd gain some sort of fame and a brown ribbon for her wall.
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 10:53 AMThat was about Iran?? Wow. I suppose that's what they call "burying the lead".
And for the record it should be "those all TOO brief moments" and "denied to US inferior beings".
Not that it would have helped.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at August 12, 2008 12:00 PMTalking points from Duckman and the Coyote pushing for more. Instapundit quotes Big Tent a lot, same as Mary here. They even do a better job getting people to convert their homes to those new light bulbs than even Daily Kos. The Left talks a lot, and does little.
Figures...
Posted by peter at August 12, 2008 12:35 PMWhereas peter talks a little and does nothing.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at August 12, 2008 12:39 PMPoor lonely goat blower, always lookin' for love.
Not that it would have helped.
Yeah, MV. Some idiot musta told her once that she could write, and so she kept doin' it long after she should have stopped. There aren't enough red pens in the world that could've fixed that mess. And yeah, it wasn't til halfway thru, paragraph after paragraph of muck and dots 'til she actually mentioned Iran. Oy!
I'll link at the other spot, if you wanna laugh at the whole thing.
Posted by iamcoyote at August 12, 2008 12:59 PMGreat thing about the internet. You don't have to be good to be read.
Posted by MaskedVigilante at August 12, 2008 01:00 PMMaskedVigilante,
Peter has no purpose on this board except to start fights or turn the discussion into not a discussion, so that the folks here from the left have to work harder to hone their arguments and exchange ideas and news about ways to rid this country of the Bush/Cheney corporate crime syndicate.
The positions that he takes are positions that will result in harm to me and most Americans. real, physical harm. He advocates emergency room healthcare, not directly mind you, he advances the forces of ecological disaster that only the greed mongering corporations can muster in their quarterly visions. He would have me choking on China's air, drinking filthy water laced with mercury and lead, he would have our forests and parklands and wetlands turned over to the corporations for exploitation, and turn the country into a great big dust bowl.
He denies global warming, he would have us turn Social Security into a Wall Street windfall, you know, all those people who got to retire last year and this year after the markets tanked, you think that they are happy about their portfolios right about now?
That's who I'm talking about. If somebody did that to you, would you consider them your friend? Defend them? No, you'd want to take them out with the rest of the garbage.
Thus, my generally indirect screeds against him and his fellow trolls. Get it?
Posted by Duckman GR at August 12, 2008 11:23 PM