The situation reminds me of an old saying (forgive me if it sounds bigotted), "You can rent an Arab, but you can't buy him."
In the end, Americans in general are infidels and no amount of "foreign aid" is going to change that mind set in the Muslim world.
Posted by brisa at September 16, 2008 03:48 PMIt is no surprise to me. The Pakistani intelligence service called ISI is in bed with taliban and Al-Queda. They have tremendous influence over Pakistani army. ISI is basically protecting their friends from being wiped out by American fire power. As long as ISI is protecting these terrorists, we will not be able to get to them. It is necessary to dismantle ISI if that is possible.
Posted by suresh at September 16, 2008 04:46 PMany fool could have seen this coming. Bush allowed his buddy Mushy to give the Al Qaeda's a safe haven and now they are entrenched, Mush is out, Bush is on his way out, and we find ourselves exactly where we were on 9/10. George W. Bush = worst
Posted by T2 at September 16, 2008 05:33 PM"You can rent an Arab, but you can't buy him."
You're talking about con-gress, correct?
And don't look now, but we're reneging on the deals with Iraqi Sunni that made the "surge" look successful.
Posted by phidipides at September 16, 2008 05:40 PMPhil:
I would posit that the CONgress is bought and paid for, lock, stock and barrel.
Posted by brisa at September 16, 2008 06:19 PMI would posit that the CONgress is bought and paid for, lock, stock and barrel.
Yup!
Posted by phidipides at September 16, 2008 07:07 PMIn the end, Bush/Cheney shall have betrayed all comers: bystanders, foes and friends alike. Their hubris, arrogance, and mockery of laws and standards of decency put them in a class by themselves in American history. They and their lapdogs in the Defense Depatment and Pentagon are apparently prepared to take each step, in a series of steps, that will likely lead to a conflagration.
There is no act of criminal aggression at which they will stop. They are willing to enlarge the war by provoking another adversary, and another one after that. Divide and conquer, destabilize and foment chaos, provoke armed conflicts, manufacture false flag operations, employ death squads and deny that such units exist,-- all gambits of aggressive war are in their hands.
And our Congress says nothing. McCain and Palin are advancing to grab the helm of office and hold true to the fatal course of militarism abroad and authoritarianism at home. And I think I know what those two mean by their political slogan, "Country First"...and I think it means something pretty sinister.
Posted by Copeland at September 16, 2008 08:01 PMI agree with Copeland. It does sound kind of sinister because these guy think they have the inside track and that god is with these assholes.
"Americans in general are infidels and no amount of "foreign aid" is going to change that mind set in the Muslim world."
Sorry, and I mean no offense, but that is ignorant, bigotted, deeply offensive pure rubbish. There is no such "mindset" in the Muslim world. That idea is an invention of western orientalists and anti-Muslim bigots.
Let me share a few facts with you:
1. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Therefore, whatever stupid, racist nonsense someone spews about Arabs cannot automatically be applied to Pakistanis.
2. All Arabs are not Muslims, and the majority of Muslims are not Arabs.
3. Not all Pakistanis are Muslims. Some are Christians. They are not considered "infidels" by Muslim Pakistanis, except possibly by a handful of the most crazy fanatics.
4. Most Arab countries - in fact, most Muslim countries - have diverse populations which include Christians. For the most part Christians have freedom of religion, and live and work and go to school and play in harmony with the Muslim population. Even Iranian Christians have freedom of worship and religious practice, and their social institutions receive funding from the government, as do Jewish social institutions.
5. Christians (and Jews) are considered believers because they believe in and worship the same God as Muslims, the God of Abraham, and are referred to as "People of the Book", the book being the Jewish Bible. Islam is considered the last in the same progression of Abrahamic religions going from Judaism, Christianity to Islam. The Qur'an has some very lovely versus referring to this relationship. A couple of such verses refer directly to the value of the Jewish Bible, and the Gospel, and states that the Qur'an contains those books, and stands as a protection to them. And indeed, such things as the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments are in the Qur'an and part of Islam.
5. There are many references in the Qur'an to the Bible, the Laws of Moses, Jesus, and Mary.
6. Jesus is considered by Muslims to be one of the most important prophets.
7. All the prophets of Judaism and Christianity are also revered as prophets in Islam.
8. The term infidel was originated by the Crusaders to refer to the Muslims. It is hardly used at all by the overwhelming majority of Muslims to refer to Americans or anyone else.
9. Syria is where Christianity was born - a source of pride to all Syrians including Christians, Muslims, and "other"s.
10. In Iraq you will find many prominent churches, one of which is pointed to with pride as the oldest church continuously in use. It is in Mosul.
11. Lebanon and Syria have many famous churches, and numerous Christian holy sites that are visited by Christian AND Muslim pilgrims.
12. Right in the middle of the prayer area of one of the most important mosques in the Muslim world - the Omayad Mosque in Damascus - is a shrine to John the Baptist, which is a holy shrine for both Christians and Muslims. In pre-Christian times the mosque was a temple to the god Baal. Later it was turned into a church. After Damascus became part of the Muslim empire the building was both a mosque and a church where both Muslims and Christians held services and came to pray. It remained that way for hundreds of years until, for purely political reasons, it was turned into a mosque only. And yet, that shrine to John the Baptist is right there, very large and prominent, in the middle of the prayer area.
Want more facts such as these? I've got plenty more. Just ask.
Posted by Shirin at September 16, 2008 10:07 PMAnd pardon me, everyone, suresh in particular, but Pakistan is a soveriegn country and has EVERY RIGHT to defend its territory against attacks by Americans or anyone else.
Pakistan is in the right here, not the all holy United States of America.
Posted by Shirin at September 16, 2008 10:10 PMWell, I certainly agree Pakistan is correct to defend its borders from the Imperial Sturmtruppen, but does anyone think that these "orders" have actually been issued? Isn't this just more bravado for doemestic (Pakistani) consumption?
Wake me when there's an "incident".
We can't attack "targets" across an international border without violating the law and basically committing an act of war. We can't work with the Pakistani military and get pre-arranged consent as the ISI will alert the target. Sounds like a bad spot to be in.
Heckuva job Cheney!
Posted by euzoius at September 17, 2008 06:03 AM"does anyone think that these "orders" have actually been issued?"
Yes.
"Isn't this just more bravado for doemestic (Pakistani) consumption?"
I don't think so.
"Wake me when there's an "incident"."
There already has been at least one incident, which apparently you slept through. Earlier this week the Pakistani military fired on two American helicopters that were violating Pakistani air space, and forced them to turn back and return to Afghanistan.
Posted by Shirin at September 17, 2008 07:28 AMObama is all for going into Pakistan:
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0132206420070801
Posted by Mr Damage at September 17, 2008 04:11 PM"Pakistan is a soveriegn country and has EVERY RIGHT to defend its territory against attacks by Americans or anyone else."
How I agree with that statement. Just as the Iraqis have the same right.
Posted by Judith at September 17, 2008 08:59 PMYes, Judith, and just as the Iranians will have the right to strike back at the U.S. with all its considerable force if either the U.S. or Israel is idiotic enough to attack it.
Oh yes, and Iran also has every right to develop nuclear technology for production of power or any other non-weapons use.
Posted by Shirin at September 17, 2008 09:15 PM