The Mormon church, proudly racist until the government threatened to take away their tax exempt status in the 70s. They truly are a bunch of sexist, racist, homophobic scum who give religion a bad name.
Posted by WMass at October 24, 2008 06:32 AMParodox,
What did you expect from organized religion?
Posted by Parallax at October 24, 2008 06:50 AMOoops....sorry! I misspelled your name...Paradox.
Posted by Parallax at October 24, 2008 06:53 AMHaving lived in Utah most of my life, it is not surprising to see the Mormon Church using Rovian tactics. Some time in the 70s the it became necessary to be a Republican in order to be a good Mormon and go the Temple. Although they claim to be for Free agency, it is only free if you follow their Draconian revolting rules.
Posted by hal at October 24, 2008 07:07 AMI never met a name I couldn't mangle, please don't worry about it.
I expected more, yes. The Mormon church has demonstrated to be prudent and smart over many decades in many ways. This is fundamentally stupid on a lot of levels.
Posted by paradox at October 24, 2008 07:11 AMMembers of the Mormon church are extremely paranoid (not exactly sure the proper name for it is). About ten years ago, I and two of my co-workers were sent to Provo, Utah – to finish up a deal with a company out there which would have been financially beneficial for both our companies. I and one of my co-workers were single, the other co-work was married man of twenty some odd years. The married co-worker was an evangelical Christian (part of the story).
When the members of this small company, (later found out were all Mormons), discovered that myself and one co-worker were single, we two were treated as scum. Anything we did or said was immediately discounted or objected to. It began to look like the only way we could close the deal was to have the married co-worker to take the lead with the remaining negotiations. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you see it) the married co-worker made one of those evangelical comments within the hearing of members of the company – and suddenly all negotiations stopped. The deal failed to materialize.
I never did find out why myself and my other single co-worker were so “frowned upon”, as far as I could tell we never did anything “out of the ordinary”. The best I could figure was that being single after a certain age was some sort of “sin”. Several years later I learned the “Mormon Company” went out of business. I do not claim this happen because of their beliefs … however, it does make one wonder if mixing business and religious beliefs – is a good idea.
Just a thought.
As far as the “Blackmail” goes --
IMHO – What goes around comes around – meaning this type of activity will surely come to “bite them” sooner or later.
How delightfully ironic that the right wing cult which was the great proponent of polygamy is now the defender of "traditional marriage."! If they weren't seriously dangerous, I would get a big hoot out of this.
Posted by candideinnc at October 24, 2008 07:21 AMThat's extremely well said, candideinnc.
Posted by paradox at October 24, 2008 07:31 AMIn a society that has allowed and supported the GOP in lying, cheating, committing fraud, murder, and deception, what the Mormons are doing is a natural progression directly linked to the 'anything goes to win' mentality of the Right-Wing.
Posted by Judith at October 24, 2008 08:20 AMhttp://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10805121
I hope that the above Salt Lake Tribune article gets wide distribution in California. I wonder how many Californians thought they were receiving a local call, not from happy valley (Utah County, home of BYU).
Also Karl Rove Went to High School in Salt Lake.
Women are to obey their husbands and are NOT equal in any way in the church. They are expected to be subservient and accountable to the male priesthood hierarchy. No matter how much the church states otherwise, the church makes clear differences between men and women with women always below men. Now I know why women can't pass into heaven without their husband's approval. Better be nice to your husband and allow him complete control over you.
Wonder if women vote, and if so, I can safely assume their husbands tell them who to vote for.
It's time to stop giving tax exempt status to CULTS.
http://leavingtsccbehind.blogspot.com/2007/12/is-mormon-church-honest.html
Posted by Judith at October 24, 2008 08:39 AMAlthough I have a real problem with Mormon dogma and politics, I have known many Mormons who were all very nice people. Certainly there was no better place for my car to break down than Orem, Utah - people had stopped to help before I could even call AAA. Their massive support for proposition 8 really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, though. It disgusts me that they want every Californian to live by their dogma.
Posted by CA Pol Junkie at October 24, 2008 09:01 AMThanks for your comments, para. I've known many Mormons in my day. I've had relationships with a few. Their beliefs are no concern of mine, although it's just another death cult. A magic (and pissed off) sky guy had sex with a married virgin, the spawn got nailed to some sticks, and if you don't believe it your after-death will not be pleasant. ROFLMAO! Even our Founding Fathers couldn't buy into that nonsense.
Their political activities should lose them tax exempt status, as it should all of the death cults in the United States.
Posted by phidipides at October 24, 2008 09:21 AM"It disgusts me that they want every Californian to live by their dogma."
This Country has become so 'intolerant' and it has been the leaders of religious organizations (hate to say) that have lead this Country on this path. It has been enough having to deal with the Catholic Church and the Fundamentalists, and now the Mormons want to add their two cents.
Posted by Judith at October 24, 2008 09:31 AMIf the Mormans were smart they would use the gay thing to address the discrimination against pologamy.
They would be able to make a good argument that their rights have been infringed same as the gays.
From there we would be able to have large groups of people get "married" in order to be able to gain spousal benefits offered to all other married people.
Imagine the benefits one will be able to obtain by just marrying into a group.
Need health care, marry into a group that has one person employed by the government. Need access to a pension plan, marry into a group with a union member. And so on. A person that has a job with benefits extended to the spouse would be able to charge people to marry into his/her group.
Posted by manapp99 at October 24, 2008 09:37 AMI fucked a Mormon girl during spring break in Mexico. Amazing how a couple of margaritas loosen up their so-called morals.
Posted by DL at October 24, 2008 09:37 AMIndividual members of any faith may be perfectly nice, while the group advocates noxious sentiments. I've seen it with many more groups than just Mormons.
Posted by joel dan walls at October 24, 2008 09:50 AMNeed health care, marry into a group that has one person employed by the government. Need access to a pension plan, marry into a group with a union member. And so on.
Need welfare, marry into a group that requires one man to be married to one woman... the rest live off welfare...
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 09:59 AMI have always been fascinated by this observation by Harold Bloom, although I can't vouch for its veracity:
"Mormons have extended their missionary work from the American public and foreign nations to our federal government, so that the FBI, CIA, and allied organizations have become very Mormon indeed."
(page 118; The American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation," Simon & Schuster, 1992.)
I also found fascinating a book titled "The Mormon Murders," which involves 2 murders, book collecting, and very highly placed members of the Mormon Church leadership. I couldn't put it down.
Happy reading, everybody!
hancock
Posted by hancock at October 24, 2008 10:13 AMAllow me to introduce myself. I am a Mormon. I am NOT a republican and I don't support Prop 8. I am also disappointed with many of the comments here. Resorting to stereotypes and broad-brush denunciations of entire groups of people is a sign of intellectual laziness and ignorance.
Based on the few comments posted so far, Mormons are racist, sexist, polygamy-practicing, paranoid, unethical, dangerous cultists. Oh yeah, and Mormon women are easy.
FACT:
The official list of donors over $1,000 shows just under 5,000 donors, many of whom (but not all) are alleged to be LDS members. A second published list shows approximately 450 smaller donors. Even if all of the donors were LDS, which they are not, it would mean that only a tiny fraction of LDS members were contributing funds to Prop 8. There are over 6 million LDS Church members in the United States and over 770,000 in California alone. You can do the math on the percentage of LDS members who are actively contributing funds to the Prop 8 cause.
Please refrain from blanket Mormon-bashing. The world has enough of bigotry. You can't fight homophobia with religious bigotry. They are two sides of the same insidious coin.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 10:36 AMTruthserum--You had better get your fellow Mormons onboard, because they are telling us that they are spearheding the assault on gay marriage. Take a look at this link:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/18/221623/752/785/603307
Truthserum--You had better get your fellow Mormons onboard, because they are telling us that they are spearheading the assault on gay marriage. Take a look at this link:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/18/221623/752/785/603307
Dear TruthSerum:
The church that you support treats women like shit, that's called sexism. The church that you support treats homosexuals like shit, that's called homophobia. The church that you support treats African-Americans like shit, that's called racism. If you support the church, you are supporting their policies. Therefore Mormons are sexist, homophobic and racist. If you don't want to support these things, then stop supporting the Mormon church.
You are like an SS member in Germany in the 1930s, saying "I'm not a racist scumbag, the SS loves Jews"
Posted by WMass at October 24, 2008 11:07 AMBased on the few comments posted so far, Mormons are racist, sexist, polygamy-practicing, paranoid, unethical, dangerous cultists. Oh yeah, and Mormon women are easy.
TruthSerum, Which part wasn't true?
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 11:32 AMFrom the "13 articles of Mormon faith"
13. "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."
...so is gay bashing virtuous, lovely, or doggone it, just plain praiseworthy?
BTW, we never found any Mormon girls where we did our female companion hunting at the Lake Geneva Playbo Club bunny dorm, but that Pentacostal girl could really "shake" 'em.
@VMass:
Thank you for your opinions. However, your personal attack only demonstrates my point. If you really think I'm like the SS of Nazi Germany and a racist scumbag, more power to you.
@Seven of Six:
All of them are untrue when applied as a general stereotype. Please re-read my post, because I don't think you have understood my point.
y did I forget the y?
Hey 7, our pool is down to 68. Would a wet suit help us stop shaking?
Posted by TIKI AL at October 24, 2008 11:59 AMDear Truthserum
I notice that you don't even try to defend your church against charges of racism, sexism, and general bigotry. You can comment on liberal blogs all you like, but as long as the Mormon church does shitty things, Mormons will be despised. I'm an atheist who has no problems with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Wiccans, but let me clue you in on something, Mormons, outside of Utah, are regarded as scum. As long as your church is sexist and racist, that will continue. The only way that will change is if Mormons like you either leave the church or change it.
TS: Could you please help me with an article I am writing on child abuse regarding delusional generational brainwashing?
1. Were your parents, grandparents, and great grandparents also Mormon?
2. When you were able to think for yourself, did you learn about other religions and consider them?
Thank you for your anticipated help.
Posted by TIKI AL at October 24, 2008 12:13 PMTIKI, My pool is down to 70, but these nights in the 50's are doing wonders for slowing the algae growth.
Any leads on solar heating conversions, mine currently runs on gas.
Voted early yesterday. Wrote about it at Low and Left Part Deux. The wife almost got cancelled on the rolls.
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 12:20 PMI'm anticipating TruthSerum's answer to you TIKI.
Can't wait for his defense of the cult members who engage in multiple marriages in order to have sex with 14 year old girls and turn the boys into slave labor.
Not like us Zonies to read about the likes of Warren Jeffs.
So TruthSerum, "Who's your Daddy?"
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 12:28 PMIf the Mormans were smart they would use the gay thing to address the discrimination against pologamy.
Is that the best we get from someone who would sell their children to a Tijuana donkey act for a buck? You're just another stupid fucking republi-KKKon asshole. And the best you assclowns could run was McCain and Palin at the head of the anti-Niggra r-KKKon party. Sweet, huh? I hope you're one of those r-KKKons who intend to intimidate voters at the polls this year. I know just the cellmate you'll need. He'll ask you if you want to be the husband or the wife. Say the "husband" so he can make his husband perform fellatio on his wife's penis.
Posted by phidipides at October 24, 2008 12:36 PM@WMass
You have not presented any argument I feel I need to respond to, only your opinion mingled with personal attacks and unflattering labels for Mormons. Again, if you believe Mormons are "scum", more power to you.
@TIKI
I suppose you think you are being clever, but your tactics are juvenile.
@Seven of Six
Thanks for your comment, but "cult members who engage in multiple marriages in order to have sex with 14 year old girls and turn the boys into slave labor" are not members of the LDS Church, so I don't have to defend them. I suspect you already know the difference between the LDS and FLDS churches, but you're content to pretend otherwise if it gives you more amunition to smear Mormons. As they say, truth is the first casualty of war.
"@TIKI
I suppose you think you are being clever, but your tactics are juvenile."
...so is that a "yes" on Q1. and Q2.?
Gee, even Sarah Palin will answer a question from a 3rd grader.
Posted by TIKI AL at October 24, 2008 01:53 PMTruthSerum, So you actually believe Joseph Smith spoke with angels? Believed that he found and translated the "golden plates"?
And Brigham Young wasn't prejudiced against Blacks when he wouldn't allow them to be part of the priesthood? "Mulattoes r like mules they cant have children..." or in other words, "We don't like the color of your skin, but we sure like the color of your money!"
I'm sorry but members of LDS, FLDS are cult members. More organized, more wealthy, staked to a good piece of land, just longer lasting. Regardless, you still believe in the same principles. It's an offshoot of the Christian religion, with a single leader somehow seeing a new path and gaining a new following. James Jones and David Koresh without the suicides... not without controversy however.
Good luck with your God.
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 01:56 PMI like your juvenile tactics, TIKI. They amuse me.
Posted by iamcoyote at October 24, 2008 02:00 PM@Seven of Six
We can play the "do you really believe" game with any faith. If you have one, declare yours and I will play the same game.
It is true that Brigham Young had certain beliefs and attitudes that in modern times we would consider racist. In the time that he lived, however, they would not have so much as raised an eyebrow among the vast majority of Americans. In fact, they were very common beliefs. There are countless comparable quotes from Ninteenth Century Christian leaders. If you are trying to make past racism a uniquely Mormon shortcoming, you should do a little more research on race relations in the U.S. How do you think the Southern Baptist Convention came to be?
I can tell you that the LDS Church does not teach its members to be racist. Quite the contrary. Gordon B. Hinckley said:
"I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ...Brethren, there is no basis for racial hatred among the priesthood of this Church. If any within the sound of my voice is inclined to indulge in this, then let him go before the Lord and ask for forgiveness and be no more involved in such."
Regarding the rest of your post, well...I disagree with you, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Gee, even Sarah Palin will answer a question from a 3rd grader
Unlike Sarah Palin, I understand the Vice President's role in the Senate. I also recognize a baiter when I see one.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 02:45 PMI also recognize a baiter when I see one.
That's coming from a "master baiter".
Born and raised a Catholic. Since I come from the west, I consider myself a Christian. But I'm currently in remission.
That's coming from a "master baiter".
Yawn.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 02:56 PM"The Mormon Murders." Interesting book and I enjoyed reading it.
"Please refrain from blanket Mormon-bashing. The world has enough of bigotry. You can't fight homophobia with religious bigotry. They are two sides of the same insidious coin."
TruthSerum, I agree with that statement. I speak for only myself, but it is very easy to toss everyone into a pile of prejudices, as I have been guilty of that very thing. I do not believe in or agree with your Church Doctrine. However, I understand that not all Mormons embrace all doctrines of their religion, just as many Christians don't either.
Posted by Judith at October 24, 2008 03:02 PM
Thanks for your comment, Judith.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 03:05 PMOne of the definitions of a cult:
A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
They were able to last longer and adjusted to prevailing laws. Their church leaders would have never changed willingly, unless forced. Nothing more.
@Seven of Six
Please. I've read that definition and many others. The dictionary defines it quite differently. Critics of other religions are constantly inventing definitions of the word "cult" to suit their purposes. Usually, it means, "any religion with which I disagree."
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 03:27 PMA religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
Sounds a lot like what Jews would have said about Jesus and his followers.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 03:32 PM"You can't fight homophobia with religious bigotry. They are two sides of the same insidious coin"
Wrong, and interesting that it illuminates your complete ignorance of logic. Being a Mormon, or a member of any other religion is a choice. Being homosexual is an inherent trait, not a choice, as science has proven over and over. I can dislike you because you have made a free choice to support an organization which does evil things, like sexism, racism, homophobia.
Posted by WMass at October 24, 2008 03:39 PM@WMass
It is your logic that is lacking. When you look for the worst behavior on the part of a member of a group in order to use that as the stereotype for all members of a group, it is bigotry, because it results in an irrational hatred for all members based on the behavior of some. Whether you are talking about a voluntary or involuntary association is irrelevant. Do you harbor similar stereotypes for the Jews, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals and members of other religions who are supporting Prop 8? What about the many Mormons who do not support it?
If you want to live your life slapping simplistic labels on people, that's your choice.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 04:12 PMSounds a lot like what Jews would have said about Jesus and his followers.
So your religion is an offshoot of an offshoot, how wonerfully warped it continues to get.
Posted by Seven of Six at October 24, 2008 04:14 PMSo your religion is an offshoot of an offshoot, how wonerfully warped it continues to get.
Can't that be said of all modern religions? Name one that isn't.
Seven, I've dealt with many, many people who like to throw around the word "cult" as a pejorative term to describe other people's beliefs with which they happen to disagree. It usually says more about the manner of thinking of the individual making the accusation than the group he or she is trying to disparage.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 04:27 PMI've enjoyed the discussion, but it's time to move on to other things. Thank you all for your comments.
Posted by TruthSerum at October 24, 2008 04:33 PMI was wondering when you would get back to your mission of bothering people door to door to tell them how misguided and wrong they are, and that lucky for them, you have brought the "real and only truth".
Posted by TIKI AL at October 24, 2008 05:08 PMIt usually says more about the manner of thinking of the individual making the accusation than the group he or she is trying to disparage.
Well, that's just it, I place LDS & FLDS, Christian Science and Jehovah Witness all in the same category. Cults... Christianity is full of them. I guess you base your argument on the longevity and adjustments your religion has made throughout it's brief history.
As a non-practicing Mormon I am horrified at the church's interference in this matter. I'd stop paying my tithing except I don't pay it, I'd stop going to church except I haven't been in 30 years. I can tell you that many of my active Mormon friends in Utah are very disturbed by the churches involvement in California politics. I think church leaders may come to regret their decision. I, also, think this an effort to appear to be legitimate Christians, to the religious right, who will never think of Mormons as anything but a cult.
Posted by 20shadesofviolet at October 25, 2008 10:21 AMOf all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as ameans of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
"
I, also, think this an effort to appear to be legitimate Christians, to the religious right, who will never think of Mormons as anything but a cult.
Almost sounds like they want to get Mitt Romney elected in 2012.