I was actually coming to your site because I was told this is a "civil" place to engage someone with differing views about the election. Then I read the first post and was proven pretty wrong.
For the record, I love liberals, I dislike the continued use of big government programs that I consider proven failures (LBJ's "Great Society" and the big government plans in other countries). Not sure how that makes me a commie or hateful.
Posted by Mark E at October 25, 2008 07:38 AMIt seems to me that the american system of democracy is fundamentally (no pun intended!) flawed. The Presidential campaign is by its nature divisive and polarizing. By the time of the election, the two parties will have spent what seems an age trying to persuade the electorate that the other side’s candidate is at best inadequate and at worst positively dangerous. This means that the new President will begin his term of office with anything up to half the people convinced he is the wrong man for the job. This is surely not a healthy state for the country to be in.
In the UK we elect the party, not the man, though of course the leader of each party will get much of the focus. When the election is decided, the supporters of the losing party in effect say “OK, it was a fair election, and we lost. Now let’s see what this other bunch can do”. We don’t usually think they are terrorists, or crypto-Nazis or whatever, neither do we think the new Prime Minister is some kind of Messiah who will lead us to Utopia.
Dare I suggest that when the American system was designed, its makers were to an extent copying the former Mother Country, merely putting a President in place of a King?
Mark, only just read your post, as it arrived while I was composing my screed. I don't quite understand your dismay. The article to which you refer was not, of course, an expression of those vile opinions. It was simply a report of an occasion when they were expressed by unpleasant people.
Posted by Colin at October 25, 2008 08:15 AMI don't think so at all Colin. The President was really meant to be the top administrator for the government, and Congress was supposed to be the decision maker. And since the states had a lot of power, they were supposed to be the crucibles of change and freedom and capitalism etc.
But the slavery issue kinda bollox'd the plan, because it showed the need for a central authority to reign in excesses or unfairness as per the Constitution.
Somehow we need to move back to less presidential power and more Congressional power directly tied to the People. Election campaign reform needs to go forward that makes it much easier to removd ineffective legislators, or maybe we need a good way of finding out what they are actually doing, maybe a report card on Representatives and Senators that accurately measures what their work is.
What, I know, how about a performance review like we all get. And an election is not that, it's a result of whatever kind of performancde review we are using. I'd like to see one that was actually useful.
Posted by Duckman GR at October 25, 2008 08:27 AMIt's really amounts to slight of hand, practiced by the wealthy and powerful, to distract the masses from where the real troubles come from.
Posted by Radix at October 25, 2008 08:43 AMMark E,
With all due respect, no one called you a commie. Or hateful.
Posted by snark at October 25, 2008 08:53 AMWelcome Mark,
I always enjoy blog-whoring that tries to veil itself as civil discourse.
Care to mention some specific examples of "big government programs that I consider proven failures"
Scattershot generalizations are simply boorish.
Big government programs? Like the military? Like the CIA? Like government limits to unionization?
Posted by Bob In Pacifica at October 25, 2008 08:56 AMFor the record, I love liberals, I dislike the continued use of big government programs that I consider proven failures (LBJ's "Great Society" and the big government plans in other countries). Not sure how that makes me a commie or hateful.
I suggest you go back and read the post. You love liberals, hate liberalism and progressives, and people call you a commie? Rigggthhtt. You are a fucktard.
I hate conservative neo-cons, they should be hung in the public square. They have wasted more blood and treasure on their asinine pursuits than all the "liberal" policies combined. Your perfect society exists, dumb fuck. I've been there and given money to the blind and crippled people living and begging on the streets. I've fed the old people and the bands of dirty uneducated children roaming the streets. I've been where life has no value and death is cheaper than a beer. You want that? You can have it easily. What you want DOES exist. But before you extol its virtues, you dumb worthless asswipe, experience the world a little bit and broaden your horizons, you narrow sack of shit. What you want exists. Go experience it before you have an orgasm over it.
You're just another god-damned worthless republi-KKKon assclown, in my book.
Posted by phidipides at October 25, 2008 09:00 AMI was actually coming to your site because I was told this is a "civil" place
Scurrilous lie!
Posted by iamcoyote at October 25, 2008 09:08 AMTrust me this IS a civil place to come engage in a "discussion"...unlike a few of the other well known sites (E)...hoping you begin to get more traffic although I think that is usually when things begin to disintegrate into the HS name calling and cutesy off color remarks. Don't know about you folks but I'm seriously in need of SLEEP...and some removal from the campaign obsession...however if we dare to HOPE things might turn around we'll have an even greater need to stay informed and engaged...please just a brief vacation!!!!
Posted by Dancer at October 25, 2008 09:10 AMYou're no doubt right, Duckman, but it has all turned out much worse than intended. One good thing would be if the election campaign didn't last so damned long, but I suppose the sheer size of America makes that inevitable.
Maybe Americans should become more cynical about politics and politicians. If we don't expect too much from any of our masters, maybe we don't get so angry when it's not forthcoming. Some might call that a philosophy of despair, I suppose.
Good fucking riddance Mark.
I am not a big government person either, but I am for effective government which we need as a country. These bastards have looted our country, put us in unnecessary wars and taken our liberties based on fear. So Mark E. FUCK YOU!
paradox - you have a good point. Republicans have bad ideas and bad policies so all they have left is to rile up RE-FUCKING TARDS who vote against their own self interest using words like Socialist. That is such BULLSHIT!
I was having a good day until I read that bullshit. Mark E. take your Blog whoring ass on down the road.
Posted by angryman at October 25, 2008 09:22 AMwe've heard Chuck Todd tell us of the obvious tension between McOld and Sarah at the Williams interview. Now rumors of an increasing irritability between the two are reported. What we have here is a man, McRage, who will publicly call his wife a "cun*" and verbally humiliate anyone who crosses him, and a woman who basically appears to have a cute wink and a history of getting what she wants based, pretty much, on the cute wink. If wednesday night comes and the polls are where they are now, with anywhere between an 8 and 12 point lead for Obama...we could be in for some big fun.
Personally, I think we'll see tightening, but at this point the only hope of John McPOW of ever seeing presidency lies with the Supreme Court. His problem is that the people that will have to cast the votes to pull him close have had eight years of lying to their face (which they finally realized about 3 years ago), then the liars stole all their savings. Then their kids best friend got killed in Iraq.
I think that the post from Mark was one of those spam ones like "hey, neat blog, want to get some free money, go to www.freemoneyblogging.com" That is the only explanation that I can come up with for such an ignorant, non-relevant comment where the person obviously did not read the post. I only wonder how it made it past the spam filter...maybe it is time to change the letter, Mary?
Paradox, you are correct. We are in a very dangerous spot right now and I fear for my country. I fear that the Right Wing anti-ACORN crap had nothing to do with the election but everything to do with after the election. I fear that they are attempting to de-legitimize the results so that their riled up mobs can attack every one of us with an Obama yard sign or bumber sticker. These people are extremists and need to be seen as just that. Extremists.
Just look at the front page on OTB. The articles on the front page are 75% about the extremists and the violence.
Especially this one. Which is an intense look at demonizing your opponent.
It is terrifying. I am afraid for my country. Afraid for all of us.
When I think about the post-election time I find myself wondering what kind of chaos will there be? I am really afraid...I try not to go there, but just look at the signs.
My favorite state Rep says that elections are really about the people who do not vote. If we could educate the people and get them to be interested in the elections and what goes on in government - if we could educate the people - then they would come out en masse and vote Democratic. (Why do you think it is that the Republicans work so hard to destroy public education and secondary educational opportunity?)
We need to educate, educate, educate and convince people that what happens in government - on all levels - does effect them. When people wake up to this, when things are a big ass mess like they are now, people pay attention and vote Democratic. Then the Dems come in, clean up the messes, fix things and the dumb asses are the only ones left voting and they bring the GOP back into power. We have to make sure that this pattern is broken, that people are educated and that they vote.
Posted by Anjha at October 25, 2008 11:42 AMI was actually coming to your site because I was told this is a "civil" place to engage someone with differing views about the election.
Sounds like a canned troll line.
But seriously, if someone did tell you that they are confused. TLC gets a lot of trolls, and the locals have gotten nasty in return. I don't think I've seen a civil left-right discussion here ever.
Come to think of it, I don't think there are many, or maybe any, sites where civil discussions happen. If they do exist they have to be heavily moderated.
Posted by Anonny at October 25, 2008 12:04 PMDid you see who the world would vote for if they could?
Jeebus.
Posted by Anjha at October 25, 2008 12:10 PMThe trolls have not changed one single mind around here.
It's their "ideas", stupid.
Unless you have come here to quietly read and learn how to save America from the past 8 years of hell, do yourself a favor and stay home.
Otherwise, a liberal portion of "Uncle Phiddy's Magic Anal Turpentine Elixir" awaits you.
Posted by TIKI AL at October 25, 2008 12:21 PMSince McCain's "campaign" is now all lying character assassination robocalls, why doesn't the fine "independent" MSM demand that McRage release the text of every robocall he's made so the people can see what he's saying under the radar?
Several polls reported in the MSM are indicating the race appears to be tightening--=is this thanks to the massive hidden smear campaign going on?
Posted by euzoius at October 25, 2008 12:23 PMis this thanks to the massive hidden smear campaign going on?
Yes. I think it is that and the natural expecation that the polls will tighten as the undecideds come home.
I also think that the "I've been tested" line seems to be turning some heads. Unfortunately, the people are not considering that McCain has failed the tests.
I believe that this should be the topic of today's letters to the editors (you all have been sending out daily LTEs, haven't you?)
Seriously. Since most things are so hard to write in a 200 word LTE, this one, or, I should say, countering this one is pretty easy. All that needs to be done is to list all of the things that McCain has been tested on and failed.
I would really like to see McRage blow his top in public over Sarah's grand revolt.
McCain has big issues with women - I will be surprised if Sarah's revolt does not cause him to blow his top....in public.
Posted by Anjha at October 25, 2008 12:31 PMThe polls are not tightening. Yes, there are a few articles saying that. And there are TWO outliers showing a close race.
But pollster.com shows a 9 point lead, the highest ever.
Posted by Anonny at October 25, 2008 01:44 PMIt seems ludicrous that hate filled slanderers on the left would lament the state of political discourse in America, until you remind yourself that it's just another machination from imperious, two-faced pretenders.
Posted by onar at October 25, 2008 01:52 PMAnjha - talking of the spam guard, I've often wondered who chose the word "Gandalf". I have this vision of a one-time hippy of a certain age, with old psychedelic posters on the walls!
By the way, "Lord of the Rings" was the most over-rated book of the last half century, which spawned the most over-rated films of the early part of this century.
The erratic John McCain is trying to sell the idea that Obama is too inexperienced to handle whatever crisis shows up next year. This is a guy who can't handle his own vice president and he picked her. He has Republicans bailing out on him from one coast to the other. McCain's campaign one been one long crisis he has failed repeatedly to handle.
But I take nothing for granted. If Obama is way ahead in your state, vote. If he's way behind in your state, vote. If voters want change, they need to make a statement. And I"m sure Obama will take all the independent and Republican votes he can get. I know independents and Republicans personally who have had enough of the right wingers.
When Reagan was president, there were right wingers who felt he didn't go far enough. So they gave us George W. Bush and we've seen the disastrous results. McCain has changed his positions so many times, I have no idea who he is. But he really has voted with Bush 90% of the time and if that isn't enough, he chose Sarah Palin as his vice president. She may not be an official John Bircher but she certainly walks and talks like a John Birch fruitcake. Case closed.
Much of the Republican establishment has learned nothing and will continue to peddle nonsense partly because the right wingers will continue to have safe seats for another election cycle or two. I see change coming but only if the voters keep their eyes open and turn out.
Posted by Craig at October 25, 2008 02:45 PMThe erratic John McCain is trying to sell the idea that Obama is too inexperienced to handle whatever crisis shows up next year.
In the past two days McCain has literally tried to tie Obama to Bush. He's said that Obama is advocating "Bush's failed economic policies" and, in a new speech, used the Obama term "eight is enough" to indicate that he will end the Bush policies.
This is sooooo funny. I give even odds that by Monday McCopycat will say that an Obama victory would be Bush's third term.
Posted by Anonny at October 25, 2008 03:18 PMAfter canvassing for the Obama campaign today and not meeting one undecided voter I ran into an undecided voter later.
Now, a lot of people tend to put undecided voters down, but when I describe my conversation with this woman to you I think you'll understand better and be sympathetic.
This was the mother of one of my kids' friends. We ran into each other at a local park and started chatting while the kids played. I avoided politics, because we'd talked about the election months before (she brought it up) with our spouses and it was clear to me that she was going to vote McCain, and that although she didn't say so, in her subsconscious race was a factor.
But, this time she brought it up. We were talking the economy and how we were both curtailing spending. And she talked about how she was still unsure of who to vote for. She clearly wanted to talk it out, so I asked her questions and listened. Then I told her I was volunteering for Obama and gave her two things to think about.
Here's what she said: She didn't like Bush at all. She sees McCain as a continuation of Bush policies. She likes Biden a lot. She thinks Palin is a disaster. But she's unsure about Obama. She's afraid that he'll try to get us out of Iraq too fast, and she's hopeful that Biden will make that process rational. She's just not sure about Obama's approach to the economy and foreign policy.
Now, to us politics junkies that may seem irrational, but to someone with a husband leaning towards dittoheaddom, and in a church that leans right (but they have a strong distrust of the Dobson-style churches), this isn't a bad summary of the situation. She's got an accurate assessment of Bush, Palin, and Biden. Her problem is with Obama -- she's just not sure if he's up to the challenge (and I'm sure there is more than a little bit of subconscious racism there, but although a staunch anti-racist I don't blame people for their subconscious feelings).
Oh, and as we discussed the economic crisis I was surprised at her level of understanding -- I was expecting a dittohead comment about loans to poor people but she dismissed that and had a pretty good understanding of the role that derivatives played. This encouraged me.
I pointed her to this week's Klein article in Time and talked about Obamas' positive interaction with Patreaus. I didn't mention the Powell endorsement, because I think there is a race factor involved here, but I did go over Obama's list of economic advisors.
She did not walk away convinced, which I didn't expect, but she did walk away with new info to think about. I think she is trying to talk herself into Obama (she volunteered that she is leaning that way) but just needs reassurance.
If this were good economic times I'm sure she'd vote Republican out of habit -- this is an example of the Republican-leaning swing voter who can become part of a Democratic majority. Even if she ends up pushing the McCain button, if Obama excels she'll be supporting his re-election in 4 years.
Posted by Anonny at October 25, 2008 04:17 PMIt seems ludicrous that hate filled slanderers on the left would lament the state of political discourse in America, until you remind yourself that it's just another machination from imperious, two-faced pretenders.
Uhhh..."my white pointy hat fell over my eyes!" Eh, bonar.
Along with the article Iamcoyote posted, I saw my first campaign ad today in which the candidate shows the Statue of Liberty and says that this Country was not founded on Socialism, in essence. It freaked me out. Liberal = Socialist
Posted by Judith at October 25, 2008 06:33 PMOh, and campaign ads are no longer running the Party's affiliation, but I think I know which Party this ad belong to. I guess candidates no longer what you to know their Party identification.
Posted by Judith at October 25, 2008 07:01 PMOh, and campaign ads are no longer running the Party's affiliation, but I think I know which Party this ad belong to. I guess candidates no longer what you to know their Party identification.
We saw this happen in 2002, when a lot of Democrats hid their affiliation.
But in 2008 every Democrat for Congress or Senate in trumpeting his/her party label, while all but two of the Republican Senate candidates don't mention the word Republican on their web pages.
Posted by Anonny at October 25, 2008 09:48 PM