"this morning’s air strikes by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza can be understood and even justified in the wake of recent rocket attacks"
No, they can't.
"Respecting Israel’s right to defend itself" That is always the excuse Israelis give. Why don't they just leave all of the West Bank taking all of their criminal settlers with them?
As I posted at another site, Talkleft:
If anything, the Palestinians have been slow to respond to Israeli attacks. The PLO was formed in 1964, 16 years after Israel occupied 80% of Palestine. Hamas was formed in 1987, 20 years after Israel occupied the rest of Palestine.
Israel has had a lot of time to make peace with Palestinians and has refused to do so.
It is hard to see the Palestinians as aggressors. For Israelis to complain about terrorism is hypocritical. Israel was founded by terrorists. Modern terrorism could be said to have begun with the zionist bombing of the King David Hotel, which was the worst terrorist attack for decades.
They also assassinated UN envoy Count Bernadotte, among others. When that happens today there is a major outcry.
There are two possibilities. I favor the one state solution(which you can easily find details of)with the return of the Palestinians refugees and the abolition of Israel's racist theological laws like the "Law of Return" for Jews from around the world.
Most speak about the two-state solution. That is one of the simplest ones to institute. Israel simply has retreat beyond the Green Line. That means removing all police and military and all the illegal Jewish settlers. But with this, I fear the creation of two theological states.
For up-to-date information and history on Palestine, try Sabbah's Blog and Palestine Remembered.
He lost me right here:
"this morning’s air strikes by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza can be understood and even justified in the wake of recent rocket attacks"
There is nothing - nothing at all that can justify or even render understandable Israel's conduct in Gaza.
And let us not forget that it was Israel, as usual, that broke the most recent ceasefire back on November 4.
I love the way this always works. There is a ceasefire (more often than not unilaterally declared and unilaterally maintained by the Palestinians). Israel breaks the ceasefire repeatedly and in increasingly outrageous ways until the Palestinians have no choice but to defend themselves. Israel then rises in self-righteous fury, commits some kind of enormously destructive massacre, and the the media report that Israel has "retaliated", and is, after all, only defending itself from the irrationally hate-filled Arab hordes, the United States issues statements of support, vetoes a couple of UNSC resolutions. End of this incident, and onward to the next.
Posted by Shirin at December 28, 2008 02:01 PMBy the way, this confirms my suspicion that J Street is just another in a long line of "liberal" Zionist organization whose goals are to support Israel, just in a "kinder, gentler" way. The trouble is, there is no "kinder, gentler" way to support an ethnicist entity whose goals include ethnic cleansing by slow genocide.
So much for J Street.
Posted by Shirin at December 28, 2008 02:08 PMYou can't divorce the Palestinians from the entire arab society. The claim that the PLO wasn't founded until 94 or hamas in 87 has nothing to do with the ongoing rejection of all arabs of israel's right to exist. The mere creation of a terrorist organization doesn't have show that there was a will to reach peace with israel or acceptance of the israel's existence. The arab's haven't accepted israel since 47 and the plo and hamas are just different ways in which the intent to destroy israel was expressed.
Posted by dcc at December 28, 2008 02:34 PMTthe "cycle of violence" concept is useless. Palestinians don't attack Israel because Israel attacks them, but because that is their sole program.
There is no symmetry between Israel and Palestinian extremists. There is no Israeli action followed by a Palestinian reaction. There is no egalitarian share of the blame and responsibility, and the sooner this fact is understood by the international community, the better.
There is no similarity between a robber who attacks his victim, and the policeman who attacks the robber in order to arrest him. Sure, both may use violence. But are they equally responsible for it?
In the Middle East, there is a sequence of events, not a cycle of violence. It is a continuum which can be stopped at a moment's notice, by the Palestinians, should they choose to do so or should they feel the necessary international pressure to do so.
Do not call it a cycle of violence.
The violence will end when the Palestinian terrorists stop attacking us. If they renounce violence, there will be peace. If we renounce self-defense, Israel will cease to exist. No symmetry.
Posted by dcc at December 28, 2008 02:41 PMThe principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Posted by dcc at December 28, 2008 02:45 PM"the ongoing rejection of all arabs of israel's right to exist."
Seven years ago the Arab League - you know, that body that represents all Arab states? - made Israel an offer of peace, recognition, and full diplomatic and economic relations (you know, embassies, ambassadors, trade agreements, stuff like that?) in exchange for Israel's compliance with UNSC Resolution 242. In other words, if Israel withdraws from the territories it has occupied and colonized since June, 1967, it can have everything it claims it wants from the Arabs. Israel gave the Arab League the middle finger.
For the last seven years, despite Israel's rude reaction, the Arab League has kept that offer of peace, recognition and full diplomatic and economic relations alive and on the table, and for the last seven years Israel has waved its middle finger at the Arab League.
So, are you saying that by making this effort the Arab League is rejecting Israel's right to exist, or are you saying that the Arab League does not count as Arab?
Posted by Shirin at December 28, 2008 03:11 PMSo, dcc, I guess you think that Hamas's official, explicit acceptance of a two-state solution with Israel existing inside the 1967 boundaries, and the independent State of Palestine existing in the West Bank and Gaza is actually some kind of nefarious plan to destroy Israel?
Posted by Shirin at December 28, 2008 03:32 PMNothing nefarious about it. It is their declared policy. Read what they say, not what is broadcast on the msm.
Posted by dc at December 28, 2008 04:06 PMAt present Hamas's official explicitly declared policy is acceptance of the two state solution with the State of Israel existing inside the 1967 boundaries and the independent State of Palestine existing in the West Bank and Gaza. That is what they have said in more than one official policy statement.
To some people this sounds like an acceptance of Israel's existence. Do you agree with that, or do you believe that accepting the two-state solution is just some nefarious plot to destroy Israel? Oh - and you might want to find out the meaning of the word nefarious before you answer.
Posted by Shirin at December 28, 2008 04:56 PMI don't know why American pundits are in such a hurry to to justify the Israeli attack on Gaza, a bombing that is using American-manufactured aircraft and ordinance. The contest between the pathetic unguided rockets---slapped together in local machine shops, versus the creme-de-la-creme, state of the art "smart bombs" in the IDF arsenal is not by any means proportional. But then we are so far out of the realm of proportionality in Israeli-Palestinian warfare, that it beggars the imagination.
We are witnessing crime when the disproportionality of deaths is so extreme: Palestinians are being killed in huge and pornographic disproportion compared to Israeli deaths. Also the Israeli war is directed against civilians, en masse, through the strangulation of the necessities of life that must enter Gaza through Israeli checkpoints.
Give Israel the right to exist; but recognize that this obscene conversion of Gaza into a desperate ghetto, made short of supplies needed for basic living, is not about Israel's survival, and is about racism and militarism, and concerns the baser motives and paranoid rationalizations of a military power that is holding all the high cards.
But everything about this stinks and has stunk for a long time. The IDF has bombed police barracks, killing young cadets from what I've read. It's obscene to describe this euphemistically as a "cycle of violence". It's been violence every day and violence to ordinary people; and to the shame of every American, it is unreported violence that is systematically and coldly unreported, that falls most of all on Palestinians in Gaza.
Posted by Copeland at December 28, 2008 10:19 PMAs for the Arabs not recognising Israel's right to exist, which as several others have pointed out is not true of all Arabs, aren't Israelis giving a pretty good imitation of not recognising Gaza Palestinians' right to exist on what they (the Israelis) consider to be their land, on the firm legal basis that they settled it thousands of years ago with their God's approval? Maybe the people once called Red Indians should be handed back their country, by the same logic.
I sometimes think that over the last half century or so, Israel's best friend has been Hitler. The awful events of the Holocaust have ensured that the rest of the Western world has remained terrified of voicing any criticism of the Chosen People.
Boy this crap gets old. The only solution is a two state solution. It won't happen until the US pushes it and we don't. Like in so much of our foriegn relations, Bush has made this so much worse. Isreali politics is reactive. Small parties have too much control. Bush further empowered them.
Most the players know the end game. They just can't get there. Independent West Bank/Gaza with some security guarantees to Israel. Settlers out of everywhere but Jerusalem. Some special status for West Jerusalem.
Those of you who bring out your laundry lists of wrongs and sins don't get it. Both Palestinians and Israelis are trying to do the right thing but are trapped by circumstance. Everyone is a victim.
Colin - I lost a third of my family to Hitler. I think you could conveyed your opinion in a more sensitive way. I hope it doesn't cause this discussion to degenerate further.
But I strongly disagree that the horrors of the holocaust affect current MSM. The US Mideast policy for 8 years has been about oil. A bellicose Israel fits in to that policy. The US MSM is right of center and supports this. The MSM in Europe is balanced to leaning against Israel.
"I sometimes think that over the last half century or so, Israel's best friend has been Hitler. The awful events of the Holocaust have ensured that the rest of the Western world has remained terrified of voicing any criticism of the Chosen People."
Colin, you have just stated, very simply, the God awful truth. When have you EVER heard of Israel being criticized for anything, particularly when it comes to violence and war?
from the US and the MSM, that is.
allansfca, that is the crime in situations such as this. Everyone, meaning the poor guy on the street just trying to live his/her life, are the victims.
Posted by Judith at December 29, 2008 05:15 PMSo the god-awful truth is that Hitler was actually good for the Jews.
Gee, you two just seeth with unhappiness - it is really sad.
"As for the Arabs not recognising Israel's right to exist, which as several others have pointed out is not true of all Arabs"
1. This business about recognizing Israel's right to exist is ridiculous nonsense. When has any country ever demanded recognition of its right to exist?
2. It makes no sense. And asking Palestinians to recognize Israel's right to exist is asking them to say that Israel had a right to massacre them, expel them from their land, and take their property. That is simply asking too much.
3. The majority of Arabs, including the majority of Palestinians recognize Israel's existence. The Arab League has offered Israel recognition and full diplomatic and economic relations. That is all any state gets from an other state, so it will have to do.
"aren't Israelis giving a pretty good imitation of not recognising Gaza Palestinians' right to exist..."
Precisely correct!
"The only solution is a two state solution."
Actually, the only just solution is a single democratic secular state in all of historic Palestine. No Jewish state no Arab state no Muslim state no Christian state, but a state of and for its citizens. Given the way the Israelis have cut up the occupied territories, and colonized such large swaths of it, that is also the only solution that is likely to happen.
"I lost a third of my family to Hitler."
What a terrible thing. It is beyond catastrophe what Hitler did to the Jews and to so many other millions of people.
But Hitler WAS a "good friend" to the Zionists. Tragically, were it not for Hitler Israel would probably never have come into existence. Zionism had not been an easy sell up until then, not to Jews, and not to most of the rest of the world. The Holocaust changed all that dramatically. And, as distasteful as it is, we cannot overlook the Zionistss collaboration with the Nazis. Does the end justify the means? Many of Israel's founders believed so.
Posted by Shirin at December 30, 2008 12:03 AM"Gee, you two just seeth with unhappiness - it is really sad."
Try reading it again. I think you missed the point. One thing I dispise is people putting words in my mouth.
Posted by Judith at December 30, 2008 04:17 AMOne thing I dispise is people putting words in my mouth.
CORRECTION: One thing I despise are....
You were right the first time, Judith, it is one thing I despise is. :o}
Posted by Shirin at December 30, 2008 08:05 AMBullshit honey - I read it and I got it - you agreed with the poster's joke - which was disgusting. I suggest you learn to read your own posts and take ownership of them. It is just sad when supposed mature people act like less responsibly then the kids do.
It is ok to disagree with Israel,it is not ok to make sneering hitler references and then run and hide behind - oh you cant read Young Judith - the fuck I cant.
By the way, werent all of you leaving for another site with your hair all in a tangle? Lol.
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at December 30, 2008 08:28 AMBy the way, werent all of you leaving for another site with your hair all in a tangle? Lol.
You must have missed the sloppy makeup sex.
Posted by iamcoyote at December 30, 2008 09:09 AMiamcoyote -
Glad to see you back - your lacerating wit is part of the energy of the joint. I am an infrequent visitor, so it was weird to come here and see tumbleweed blowing down the home page.
Happy new year to you - you are a wicked bunch of smarty pants.
bye
Posted by the young Judith (tyj) at December 30, 2008 09:22 AMThank you Young Judith. I was really offended and appreciate your getting it. It is a very disempowering device to make a group's past victimization appear as privilege.
Shirin, Zionists collaborated with Hitler? That is an awfully strong statement. You can't drop a statement like that as if it is common knowledge with out documenting it.
allansfca and tyj, you both have chosen to totally miss what was being said. But, you guys go ahead and believe what you NEED to believe.
Posted by Judith at December 30, 2008 09:56 PMYes, Allan, Zionists collaborated with the Nazis. In fact, ironically a number of avowed anti-Semites, including, for example, Lord Balfour, were very helpful to the Zionists in different ways. You see, the creation of a Jewish state, or at least of a Jewish homeland, would be very useful in getting the Jews out of Europe and isolating them in one place. In a great many respects there was harmony between the goals of the Nazis and the goals of the Zionists, and a number of Nazis and a number of Zionists recognized this. Tragically, this resulted in a number of cases in a kind of collaboration in which masses of Jews were sacrificed to save a few (as in the case of Rudolph Kastner), and in which the lives and well-being of masses of Jews were sacrificed to the achievement of the Zionist goal of a Jewish state.
The words of Yitzhak Greebaum sum up the Zionist's priorities.
"When they come to us with two plans – the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land - I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land. The more said about the slaughter of our people, the greater the minimization of our efforts to strengthen and promote the Hebraization of the land.
"If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the ‘Keren Hayesod' (United Jewish Appeal) to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No! and once again No!" Yitzhak Greenbaum Yitzchak Greenbaum on "The Diaspora and the Redemption", Tel Aviv, February 1943.
And more from Greenbaum:
". . .when they asked me, couldn't you give, money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said, 'NO!' and I say again 'NO!' one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance." Yitzhak Greenbaum, In Days of Holocaust and Destruction
There are some very well-known quotes such as the one from David Ben Gurion expressing graphically that the creation of the Jewish state was of a far higher priority than saving Jewish lives. I can provide the exact Ben Gurion quote if you like, but not tonight.
This is not a subject I have studied extensively, but I have come across it in my studies of the Palestine conflict and Zionism. I first began to think about it as a result of knowing a few Jews who told me that Holocaust-survivor family members believed they had been victims of a Zionist organization that cared more about creating their Jewish state than about saving Jewish lives (there is irrefutable evidence of this in many sources from the '30's and '40's. There is further evidence in some of the immigration policies and attitudes in the early years of statehood, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion). Their rage at the Zionists, and in some cases at specific individuals was very deep in some cases. I recall one young man who told me that his father despised David Ben Gurion because of an experience he had that involved him.
In any case, here are a few references that I can produce quickly. There is a lot more available, most of which I have not actually read.
Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem, pp. 59-61, pp 117-119, p 125.
"Wherever Jews lived, there were recognized Jewish leaders and this leadership, almost without exception, cooperated in one way or another, for one reason or another, with the Nazis. The whole truth was that if the Jewish people had really been unorganized and leaderless, there would have been chaos and plenty of misery but the total number of victims would hardly have been between four and a half, and six million people." P 125
The case of Dr. Rudolph Kastner supports the above quote from Arendt. There should be material on this case on the internet. Granted, there is some controversy around the case, but the evidence points clearly to a collaboration that involved the intentional sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of Jews in order to save a select few elites.
There are references to Nazi-Zionist cooperation in Christopher Sykes, Crossroads to Israel. I have the book in my personal library, and can provide page numbers if you like, but it is in another room, and it would take me some time to locate it and look up the reference, and it is late, so I will not do it now.
I can recommend this article if you can locate it: Klaus Polkehn, "The Secret Contacts: Zionist-Nazi Relations", 1933-1941, "Journal of Palestine Studies", Spring-Summer 1976). I have it in my library, but only in hard copy.
Hopefully that will suffice to get you started.
I offer this information only to provide a piece of reality that few people know anything about or would even imagine.
Posted by Shirin at December 31, 2008 12:57 AMJudith, I "choose" to misunderstand and have a "need" to believe something! How incredibly dismissive.
Posted by allansfca at December 31, 2008 09:01 AMJudith, Allan, if I might intercede as an outside observer.
Judith, I understood your point well, and I can also understand how Allan could have heard it in a different way than you meant it. We all hear through the filter of our particular sensibilities and sensitivities. A person of European Jewish background, and particularly someone whose family was directly affected by the Holocaust is not likely to interpret a comment such as yours in the same way some others might.
As for The Young Judith, she misquoted you in a way that badly distorted what you said, and I am not convinced she did not do so deliberately.
Posted by Shirin at December 31, 2008 09:52 AMShirin,
Thank you for responding and the effort that went into your response.
I don't see your points as leading to your conclusion.
You've shown some Zionists were extremists who prioritized the creation of Israel over saving Jews. You've shown some Jews were involved in the gathering of their brethren. For your logic to flow all Jews must be Zionists (or organized Jews?) Truth was that the Kastners and Jewish councils were small bodies of local yocals empowered by the Nazi's and then played with. Was Sophie's choice collaboration. These poor shmucks actually thought there cooperation was the only way to save lives.
The Nazi's had extensive propaganda promoting this vision of an organized cooperative Jewry. Making the leadership appear complicit was very much a part of their process.
The use of Arendt's quote was very interesting. If anyone understood the Nazi systematic coercion of well meaning leaders, it is Arendt. The banality of Eichmann was a central point of her work. Eichmann was effective particularly because he knew how to draw in the Jewish leadership with his shell games.
Posted by allansfca at December 31, 2008 09:54 AMDespite what some seem to think, I never said Hitler WAS good for the Jews. I said he HAS BEEN more than useful to them SINCE the Holocaust, because of the guilt felt by the rest of the world, and apparently still felt by people who weren't even born when Hitler started his genocide. Ironically, to judge by the nonsense floating around the internet, a fair number of Americans even now think the troubles of the world are caused by a giant Zionist conspiracy. As I say, that's nonsense, but it is a fact that at this very moment something a lot like genocide is taking place in Gaza because of America's unconditional support of Israel - support which, I very much fear, will continue under the new President, if his words are anything to go by.
Posted by Colin at December 31, 2008 10:54 AMYeah, people are hurting now, that is the bottom line. No administration prior has given the IDF such a green light to do whatever they want like Bush. I can't imagine it can do anything but get better under Obama....he is too much of a pragmatist.
Posted by allansfca at December 31, 2008 11:52 AMSorry, I guess that was Colin's remark I was referring to above.
Colin, I would never say that Hitler was or has been good for the Jews. He most assuredly was not. Aside from the intrinsic and obvious horror of the act of genocide, and the impact of being part of a group that was the object of genocide, I have known a number of people who are psychologically damaged by having been raised by parents who were deeply psychologically damaged by the Holocaust, and it is very clear that the repercussions and ripples of the Holocaust will continue to affect the social and mental health of their descendants for generations to come before it finally dissipates. And this is only one, little-recognized long-term effect out of many, many terrible effects.
Second, it is tragically and ironically true, as I have already pointed out, that Hitler and the Holocaust were a real boon to Zionists and Zionism, which prior to that was quite a hard sell among Jews and non-Jews alike. It is quite likely that without the Holocaust Israel would not have come into being, at least not in the manner and form that it did. The Holocaust has also served Israel very well as a get out of jail free card that has helped it to run roughshod with virtually absolute impunity over international law and international norms of decency, and the fundamental human rights of millions of human beings.
It is important to make a distinction between Zionism/Zionists, the State of Israel, and the Jews. It's not just for reasons of political correctness, but for accuracy. They are not the same thing. So, Hitler has been, in a deeply and horribly ironic way, very good for Zionists and for Israel, but that is very different from saying he has been good for the Jews. In addition, it is logically and factually defensible to say that Hitler has been good for Zionism and Israel. It is not only not logically and factually defensible to say he has been good for the Jews, it is, however unintentionally, inflammatory, as we have seen here.
As for what Israel has been inflicting on the Gaza strip, not just in the last several days, but for years, and particularly in the two years since the Palestinians committed the crime of freely choosing their own governing party, it is quite analogous to the Warsaw ghetto, and genocidal is not too strong a term to describe it.
Posted by Shirin at December 31, 2008 12:16 PMAllan, thanks for your thoughtful response. I don't have the time or the resources in front of me right now to give a substantive response. For now I will just acknowledge that it is not by any means a black and white question.
Posted by Shirin at December 31, 2008 12:32 PMNo, not all Jews or all Israelis are Zionists. But turn it round the other way - would you say, Shirin, that all those in Israel and elsewhere who are backing or condoning the current Gaza campaign, are Zionists? Surely not. Presumably those in America who supported and still support, the Iraq war, are not every one of them brutal imperialists. They are ordinary folk who choose, or find it comfortable, to believe what their government tells them. I'll accept that I was slipping into the same mindset that has made half the world anti-American in recent times. Not all Jews are responsible for what the Israeli government is doing, and to be fair some are speaking up. Non-Jews must not allow the enormity of the Holocaust to inhibit them from speaking up too. The trouble is, how many of those who speak up will be people in government, with actual input on policy? Precious few, I fear, either here or in the USA.
Allan, I seriously do not expect Obama to stand up to Israel whatsoever. His headlong rush to kowtow to AIPAC and his performance there was the most embarrassing of any American official to date. I didn't think it could get any worse than Al Gore's annual mawkish, tearful declarations of his love for Israel, but with Obama it did. And then there was his little visit to the Middle East in which he had all the time in the world to hang out in Israel, take the well-designed marketing tour, see the sights, visit with Israelis, pray at the Western Wall, visit Yad Vashim (did he even give a passing glance to the remains of Deir Yassin, which is visible from Yad Vashim?), but was able to give a mere 45 minutes to say "hello, goodbye" to the Palestinians.
And let's talk about the people he has chosen to advise him and help him shape his foreign policy for his campaign, for the transition, and for his term in the White House. Reads largely like a roster of members and best friends of AIPAC. Martin Indyk, Hillary Clinton - Dennis Ross, for god's sake! He has not chosen a single person who even understands the Arab or Muslim positions, let alone gives a damn about them. And heaven forbid he should have an actual Arab or Arab-American anywhere near him.
And now there is his deadly silence on the escalation of the crimes against humanity Israel is committing against 1.5 million human beings in Gaza.
No, it might be different in some ways with Obama, but it won't be much better.
Posted by Shirin at January 1, 2009 12:02 PM