The bill does appear to have lots of baggage generally associated with Big Spending Dems, and much of that doesn't seem to have much, except tangentially, to do with revving the economy. But lets be clear...even if it was a perfect bill, unless it has massive Rich and Corporate Tax Cuts, the GOP would oppose it. The GOP is trying to simply hang the economic mess around Obama's throat and get the public to forget that it was a Republican owned Crisis from the very start. And that's politics as usual for them. The problem, of course, is where they will stand if, for reason's of the eventual Stimulus Bill or not, the economy comes out of the woods (which it will), then it will be Obama's great Success despite the GOP. Two years from now the GOP is betting their ruination of our economy will still be in full swing and they can blame Obama. If Obama and the Dems manage to turn the ship, the public will remember who tried their best to keep us in recession. It is basically a desperate gamble for a party desperate to cling to their ever-shrinking base. Guess what, their base is losing jobs at a very fast rate.
Posted by T2 at January 29, 2009 06:45 AMThanks Deacon, a breath of fresh air, today at least. There are a bunch of us that want this presidency to succeed, we need it to. Our jobs depend on it. Look, Shell Oil even posted a loss last quarter.
Posted by peter at January 29, 2009 08:01 AMYes, a stimulus bill is needed and will probably help although nobody knows how quickly it will have an effect. Republicans know that the big bank bailout is hated by 80% of Americans. They hope that the economy will be worse off in fall 2010 and that they can say that they didn't support the initial TARP or the pork-laden Obey-Pelosi bill. However, their continued call for tax cuts for the rich (trickle down Hoover-Friedman economics) will not sit well with voters. This is not 1993 and Obama has some strengths that Bill Clinton lacked.
It's fair to say that Dodd, Frank, Obey, Pelosi and Reid get and deserve little respect from the general public. Hopefully Obama realizes this and will bring some improvements into the senate Bill and will not rely on semi-competent people like the Congressional Democratic "leadership". Being calm and open and avoiding a replay of Hillary’s secret healthcare consortium will help him.
Who is kidding who here. The United States Federal Government is hopelessly insolvent. When the Fed has to resort to directly purchasing Treasuries (which is now the case), the jig is up. Liabilities to future generations of Americans far exceed what can be repaid, barring double digit economic growth every year for the next twenty. How likely is that?
The derivative mess that has bankrupted the world has a total nominal value of some 500 trillion dollars. Only a small fraction of these bad holdings have been bailed out to date, but many more are destined to fail to meet their obligations. It's like pouring money into a black hole and severe inflation will result.
Perhaps an innovative approach that would allow the repudiation of derivative instruments world wide and the implementation of a system wide restructuring is a way forward. We need a financial system that is not dependent upon unending and unlimited economic growth. Net usable energy depletion will force a change to a more sustainable economic model and it would be nice to get ahead of the curve on that inevitability. (If it's not already in the catcher's mitt.)
What is being experienced by the population of Iceland is likely a glimpse into our own future. Radical change that will reshuffle the concentration of world wealth is what is called for. My question is whether the sociopaths who hold the levers of power through monetary control can be overcome. If Obama threatens those interests, I hope he does has the protection of the Chicago mob...he'll need it.
imagine the amount of money we've thrown away in Iraq. The GOP would have us throw money away there forever. Obama, I believe, will stop that waste. Don't forget, the cost of Bush's War is never factored into the Economic Crisis...but that bill will come due and it will be Obama's problem also. And the GOP won't give him any help with that either.
Posted by T2 at January 29, 2009 12:26 PMWell, I for one will be surprised if any future bill gets more than a pitiful handful of support from house repugs. Yes, infrastructure, and yes to a real but good wish list of progressive ideas needs to be done. If the Rush led GOPers support it I truly will be surprised. But that's what's needed and what I hope gets pushed by Obama.
Just remember one thing, for now, we truly DON'T need that
Posted by gmknobl at January 29, 2009 12:34 PMThey were trying to send a message to the White House: we won't vote for crap.
Deacon, How about we cut the "crap"... this was simply nothing else but total "republi-con obstruction", as usual! What, all of sudden the repukes are fiscally conservative? Remember who got us into this mess, approving everything bu$h wanted!
Let's be totally honest, the repukes were trying to stick the whole bill on the Dems and Obama. These slimey fuckers have no other re-election strategy! They hope Obama fails... don't forget it... the meme is out.. they are not are friends, never have been, never will be!
Why did the repukes try to institute their own "crap" in the bill anyway? Hell, if they are going to make the Dems and Obama own the bill then republi-cons shouldn't have one thing that belongs to them in the bill!
I have to agree with John Kerry... from a post at Kos:
Sen. John Kerry says Democrats should ignore Republicans’ demands about the stimulus plan if they’re going to vote against it anyway.Posted by Seven of Six at January 29, 2009 01:46 PMReacting to Wednesday night’s vote in the House -- where not a single GOP member supported the stimulus package -- Kerry told Politico that “if Republicans aren’t prepared to vote for it, I don’t think we should be giving up things, where I think the money can be spent more effectively.”
“If they’re not going to vote for it, let’s go with a plan that we think is going to work.”
The Massachusetts Democrat and 2004 president candidate suggested tossing some of the tax provisions in the stimulus that the GOP requested. “Those aren’t job creators immediately, and even in the longer term they’re not necessarily. We’ve seen that policy for the last eight years,” he said.
Some of it looked like "Post 9-11 opportunity syndrome" to me too.
Posted by TIKI AL at January 29, 2009 02:17 PMIf Obey is the problem as you report it, then I think the Obama Administration will have to exert its influence on House and Senate leadership ASAP. It is a shame political capital has to be wasted on your own party.
I am not totally familiar with the role of Obey, though I read he has been in place for ages (3rd in tenure behind Dingell and Conyers). If this were a pork-laden bill, perhaps he was simply making good on old promises by his colleagues and now they can all say : "we tried to get you that museum grant or public park, but we couldn't--blame the Republicans--so lets move on."
Posted by gtash at January 29, 2009 03:34 PMThe time to wait is certainly not now. The only fault I have with the bill is that 1/3 of it is in tax relief. Sorry, that is not new spending by any stretch of the imagination.
Is it packed with pork? One persons pork is another persons bacon. The right is screaming about pork. And the pork of which they scream? That is, the pork of which the right screams?
I plagiarized this from CNS news and bitchy right wing fucktards: $4.19 billion in "neighborhood stabilization" activities. $600 million to buy new "green" friendly cars for government workers. $10 million for bike and walking trails, $200 million for plug-in car stations, $400 million for climate change research, $800 million to clean up Superfund sites, $600 million for grants for diesel emission reduction, $650 million for "alternative energy technologies, energy efficiency enhancements and deferred maintenance at federal facilities," and $1.5 billion for construction of "green schools." $2.7 billion in National Institutes of Health grants would go toward embryonic stem cell experimentation and $75 million for smoking cessation. The bill provides billions for the reform of the health care system and working towards nationalized health care, with little or no debate, McClusky said. $246 million in tax breaks over 11 years for investors in big budget movie projects that don’t otherwise qualify for incentives. 50 billion to the National Endowment for the Arts, $83 billion for the earned income credit for people who don’t pay income tax, $1 billion to the Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) hiring program. $2 billion for national parks. $462 million for equipment, construction, and renovation of facilities at the Centers for Disease Control, $150 million for repairs to Smithsonian Institute facilities, $44 million to the Agricultural Research Service, $1.2 billion for the National Science Foundation, $227 million for oversight of spending, and $1 billion for the follow-up to the 2010 Census.
Uhhhh...so, tell me, Deacon. You seem to have a problem with the "pork", as the right does. This is the pork the right is bitching about. What problems do you have with it? The guy with a shovel helping improve a trail for the Park Service? The Cop being hired? I think they might call your pork a job.