one only has to go back on the period from 1973-1990 and see what GM cars looked like to understand why they dropped the ball. They looked crappy, ran crappy and were, basically, just place-holders while GM tried to figure out how to compete with better products from overseas. They never did. The day a Honda engine won the Indy 500, Detroit was doomed.
Posted by T2 at April 28, 2009 07:29 AMYeah, especially after Obama won the MI primary! Oh, wait....
Seriously, it's just like The Wire. We as a society are in the process of deciding that "we" don't need yet another twenty percent of the population. That's why the small parts suppliers don't matter, right?
Posted by lambert strether at April 28, 2009 09:11 AM"small parts suppliers don't matter" - here's the thing: look under the hood of a late model car. The days when I could go down and by some parts for my chevy and slap them in are long gone...I can't even see my spark plugs now, much less change them without tearing the whole engine compartment up. Also, note that a new Honda doesn't need a tune-up until 100,000 miles, and probably not even then. The small parts suppliers don't matter because the imports run forever.
And one other thing: Arlen Specter, (D) PA
Posted by T2 at April 28, 2009 09:30 AMThe point is that a government cant hold a failing industrial sector under the arms. Eventually it will fail. So GM will go, regardless. Might just save the money and make way for whatever rises in its place.
Posted by Greup at April 28, 2009 11:27 AMYeah, especially after Obama won the MI primary! Oh, wait....
Shorter puma: "Wahhhhhh!"
Posted by Twinky P* at April 28, 2009 11:53 AMMore jobs killed by unions. The foreign companies will pick up the slack.
Posted by Dennis at April 28, 2009 12:14 PMForeign auto workers don't have to pay for health insurance.
Another Senate seat killed by the right wing.
The democrats will take up the slack.
More jobs killed by unions.
It certainly wasn't the Unions that killed the American car industry. While the Union continued to make concession after concession (as all Unions do), for +25 years the white collar workers never made a vehicle to compete with the Japanese or the Europeans.
That's some disgusting hubris dennis.
Posted by Seven of Six at April 28, 2009 01:16 PMI lived in Michigan in the mid-1980s and worked as a computer vendor for GM/EDS. I've been in about half the plants in the state plus at the various offices where the dealer and parts networks were headquartered.
Even then I wondered how GM could possibly continue to survive. The problems were so obvious. They were all into this "Quality College" thing, but although every manager and most of the white collar employees got the training, they never actually used it. The mgmt hierarchy never changed, the attitudes never changed, etc.
Back then, talking to a GM employee about car quality was like talking to a Republican about supply side economics -- they were in sheer denial. "Consumer Reports is biased." "My uncle had a Honda once and it had tons of problems." "I've had a Chevette for 8 years and never had to fix anything."
Ford was different. Yeah, they still had lots of quality problems, but the company rank and file had somehow gotten that this was a problem, and that their long-term viability was threatened by it.
Also, Ford was coming out with all kinds of new innovations (for example, it's hard to remember now just how ground-breaking and downright wierd looking the ultra-aerodynamic first edition Taurus and Sable were in 1985 -- that car was clearly one of the most influential in automotive history). Meanwhile, GM accountants were forcing their engineers to come up with a succession of bad cars. Remember the Fiero? The accountants wouldn't approve it until the engineers cut the costs drastically by building the frame out of a Chevette front end welded to a Citation front end.
Yes, Ford did shit like that in the late 70s and early 1980s (the 1980-2 Fairmont-based Thunderbird is one of the worst conceived cars of all time), but they learned and adjusted.
Even when GM seemed to get the message in the 1990s they ultimately failed in execution. Consider that the 1999 Impala project was a direct attempt at a high quality car. They greatly simplified electronics and car design, used their most reliable old-technology engine and drivetrain, added modern stability bars, and copied everything they learned from Toyota at the NUMMI plant. Result? Another quality disaster.
At some point you need to realize that the corporate culture is so poisonous that it cannot be fixed. Perhaps the best thing to do is to sell the plants and the dealer network to Toyota, Honda, and Nissan and let them use the remaining GM assets to expand into the U.S.
Posted by Anonny at April 28, 2009 01:38 PMGM has two things worth saving - Corvettes and Cadillac limos for funeral homes.
Posted by T2 at April 28, 2009 02:29 PMTiki Al blares out some fraud. Foreign car companies build cars here and DO pay for health care. GM total compensation for US workers is $73/hour. Honda, Toyota and Nissan pay $44/hour for their US workers.
Google total compensation for Big Three automakers and you may learn something for a change instead of sounding like a complete fool.
Posted by Dennis at April 28, 2009 03:14 PMdennis go back to planet dumbass with the rest of the propaganda spewing troll idiots...simply finding some number or stat supporting your bullshit position online doesn't mean it's accurate...why don't you try googling "right wing propaganda"?
Posted by headxray at April 28, 2009 03:50 PMcertainly not in this manner.
Why not? There is no "good" manner. And, frankly, stupidity has its price and GM is paying it.
Posted by Moses at April 28, 2009 04:35 PMDennis put the talking points down and do some real research. You have it ass backwards.
Posted by TIKI AL at April 28, 2009 05:05 PMQuite a way to skew the facts.
Dennis the actual price is $29.78 per hour.
It includes not only current workers' hourly wages and benefits, such as health care and retirement, but also retirement and health-care benefits that U.S. automakers are providing for current retirees.
Now let's talk about foriegn auto subsidies. Tennessee republi-con Senator Corker garnered over $500 million in government assistance and tax breaks for a Volkswagen plant. Not a bad haul for a non-Union, right to work state.
Do you want to discuss GM executive compensation for the last few years while it was going bankrupt?
Didn't mean to go "bold" all the way.
Posted by Seven of Six at April 28, 2009 05:22 PMTwinky P
Shorter ignorant fuckhead: "Rules are for losers."
Posted by lambert strether at April 28, 2009 05:45 PMAnnony writes:
"At some point you need to realize that the corporate culture is so poisonous that it cannot be fixed."
Maybe so. Why doesn't the administration apply to the same logic to the banks, then?
Posted by lambert strether at April 28, 2009 05:48 PMDid anyone try the Google search Dennis recommended? I did. The link was right near the top of the search results page.
Looks like Dennis wins this argument.
According to University of Michigan economist Mark Perry, Thanks in part to managerial incompetence, but mostly due to pricey union contracts, it costs American carmakers too much to build cars here; they can't compete. When you fold in health care, pensions, hourly pay, vacations and the rest, average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker is $73.21 an hour.
Dennis, you were off by 21-cents. I'll give you the win in this, even with the rounding error. Seven of Six is off by $43.43. Not even close.
Mark Perry continues, Toyota, Honda and Nissan pay a still-generous $44.20 an hour in total compensation — a cost edge of nearly 40%.
But this is why the US companies are going out of business. Profits - or the lack of them.
Japan's Big Three — Honda, Nissan and Toyota — make anywhere from $900 to $1,600 in pretax profit on each car they make in North America (mostly in southeastern states, with non-union contracts). America's Big Three, by comparison, lose anywhere from $400 to $1,500
Notice the article states that the foreign companies are building cars in the southern states, so of course the companies pay health care for the workers. So TIKI AL was wrong.
Posted by JFixx at April 28, 2009 05:52 PMSorry JFixx, dennis does not win the argument.
Maybe a little independent research, Media Matters has the break down here.
Want to discuss the subsidies the foreign auto makers received? They had republi-con Senators procuring these additional funds. Really fair to Detroit eh.
How about CEO compensation rates... anything?
Posted by Seven of Six at April 28, 2009 06:15 PMAccording to University of Michigan economist Mark Perry,
So let's add him to the John Lott list of academics who make up shit so they'll get linked by Drudge.
How'd he do it? Simple. He took all the payments being made to GM retirees (including health care) and included that in the total compensation package of the current employees, then divided by the number of hours worked. Never mind that the retirement funds were paid for years ago when the retirees were workers. Mark Perry had a point to prove, facts be damned, and he did it.
There really should be special place in hell for academics like Lott, Perry, Yoo, etc.
Posted by Anonny at April 28, 2009 07:33 PMThanks, JFixx. These people are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. LOL. They're in denial as the US auto companies are circling the drain right in front if their eyes because labor costs are so expensive the companies can't make a profit making cars. Unlike global warming, the evidence is in - witness the pink slips, dealers closing, and plants shutting down.
Posted by Dennis at April 28, 2009 08:44 PMok dennis I was wrong..it's not planet dumbass you escaped from..it's planet pyscho- dumbass..
You and your moronic pal, mr fixit are a textbook example of right wing psycho-idiocy...
To stupid to understand realistic facts while being so delusional you buy your masters propaganda...
How many trolls does it take to change a lightbulb? zero even a hundred of them together aren't smart enough...
Posted by headxray at April 28, 2009 09:17 PMThey're in denial as the US auto companies are circling the drain right in front if their eyes because labor costs are so expensive the companies can't make a profit making cars.
As usual the right wing can only blame labor... the people who made the least money, worked the hardest and have lost the most.
The rightwing forte is to spring to the defense of their corporate masters. Once again the irresponsible white collar escape unscathed in the eyes of the right!
Perhaps a new playbook is in the works the GOP?
Nah, they have been so successful in their approach... look at their recent strings of victories... unprecedented... perhaps they can remind us one... oh, that's right the party of NO!
A solid 70% of the public against repuke policies!! LOL! Damn at least some know when to get off a sinking ship!
Posted by Seven of Six at April 28, 2009 09:28 PM