The whole point of "insurance" is to spread the risk of great (individual) expense by charging (the many) a small cost. The entire point is for the "premiums" to be manageable and affordable.
When that is no longer the case and the premiums themselves are unaffordable to ordinary workers and businesses (as now), the "insurance" model has completely failed.
So we'd do better to scrap the entire concept of health "insurance" and go straight to a gub'mint program of health care provided to all financed by taxes. That would be the dreaded "socialized medicine" seen throughout Europe, and it's frankly the only thing that makes any sense given the complete failure of the for-profit "insurance" model.
But that's not going to happen in Idiot Nation, with its massive faction of brain dead conservative morons, who are led like sheep by their wealthy cheerleaders and 24/7 Noise Machine into opposition to ANY economic change, even if the status quo is unsupportable. As an "option" the sensible solution used throughout Europe cannot even be mentioned as it's "Too Lib'rul!!"
Further, our Dem leaders have already decreed that a single payer health insurance system (like Canada) is also Too Lib'rul! and hence cannot be discussed either.
That leaves the (extremely modest) reform of simply creating an (optional!) public insurance plan run by the federal government as an alternative to buying health insurance from for-profit health "insurers".
It would create more "competition" in insurance, offer more "consumer choice", force down extravagent executive pay schemes and corporate profits and is the only way left to try to reduce costs and out of control premiums---all things the "Free Market" Right used to say they supported.
Now 95% of the Repubs have declared that the only remaining (tepid) reform---a public plan option---is absolutely unacceptable to them and they will oppose any such legislation. What a surprise.
If America's failed business leaders let the insurance companies defeat this last remaining reform and squander our last chance to do something about this broken system, then they are even worse "businessmen" than the most vitriolic anarchist could imagine.
Again, if this extremely modest reform can be defeated in the current climate of catastrophe and conservative failure, then it will show our political "system" has completely collapsed, and that we can no longer reform ourselves---essentially we will be without an operating government and in functional anarchy.
Posted by euzoius at June 9, 2009 06:33 AM
Of course, if we were talking about health care, instead of all of this idiocy about health insurance, all of this blather would not matter. Whether you were just a little bit ill, or a whole lot ill, you would get health care.
All of this nonsense on the media about healthcare reform bears about as much resemblance to healthcare reform as my cat does to space travel.
Posted by Bill H at June 9, 2009 07:24 AMI am very involved in decrying the casual manner in which the "single payer" is dismissed without the slightest consideration, despite the fact that around 60% of We, the people, all of the major nursing and physician associations and even most small and big business associations are calling for at least a fair hearing and, Most critically, an honest, cost-benefit analysis. THAT is something the corporate masters must never allow!
I sat through a hour-long "town meeting" on the phone with my Rep. Rob Andrews on the subject. I'm afraid he recognized my name. I was not called upon for "dialogue". It was gratifying to hear how fervently he supported "the President's plan" and talked up the public option. I have severe doubts as to his intestinal fortitude, however. This DOG Democrat at one point STILL said he supports a "Social Security SAVINGS ACCOUNT option".
What was even more galling, was his haste to assure his constituents, many times in one hour, that this is NOT government health care! GODS FORBID! No, no, the insurance "adjusters" will still hold your balls in their talons, never fear!
In general, he votes (to my jaundiced eyes) reasonably about 85% of the time. On some issues, though, I can't decide whether hes a TOOL of just a FOOL. If Andrews is mouthing support for some kind of public option, I say good, but verify the Hell out of the fine print. This is precisely where the danger lies. These lifetime politicians are experienced at saying what sells, then allowing "surprising" consequences of their lobbyist-written bills to excuse their ignorance. I'm getting tired of a whole chorus of Gomer Pyles chanting, Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!.
If they're really that stupid, I'd like to arrange for a group portrait in the rain and then tell them to all look up at the pretty airplane flying overhead. Who needs term limits?
Posted by DeminNewJ at June 9, 2009 07:33 AM"getting tired of a whole chorus of Gomer Pyles chanting "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"
Now THAT is funny!
Great writing.
Posted by euzoius at June 9, 2009 08:21 AMThe brain dead conservative sheep aren't the ones who voted for a candidate who put out the Harry and Louise ads this cycle. They aren't the one who voted for a candidate that said mandates would be the equivalent of making the poor choose between rent and health care.
If we don't get a workable health care plan you don't get to blame it on the conservatives. They don't occupy the WH,or Congress in majority numbers anywhere. I am going to make sure history isn't revised in 2010 and 2012. I'm not going to accept any revisionism that say a majority in the House, an almost filibuster proof majority in the Senate and the White House isn't enough Democrats to get workable health care for Americans. If they don't create a workable plan it is because they are more interested in playing kabuki then providing coverage. Just as they were more interested in playing kabuki then actually ending the war. You're deluding yourselves otherwise to continue to blame this on a party that has little to no power within the system at this point. If this fails it won't be on the conservatives, its on the progressives, who elected a spineless batch of Dems to Congress and a President without the chutzpah to withstand a little namecalling and fight for actual liberal principles.
Posted by cwaltz at June 9, 2009 10:47 AMI am going to make sure history isn't revised in 2010 and 2012.
Gonna vote for McCain again, then, girl moron? That'll do it, I'm sure.
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 11:28 AMI don't have the pleasure of living in some alternate universe Twinky P so why don't you regale me with how much better Obama is then McCain on matters like health care?
Oh wait he's planning on doing what he criticized McCain for suggesting.....taxing employer sponsored health care.
The fact that the most intelligent argument you have for your Obama administration is calling me a "girl moron" says much about your ability to have an intellectually honest discussion.
As I stated above, the progressives don't get to revise history and blame this on the mean ol' powerless conservatives. You have two of the three branches of government. If you can't get a working health care system in place with a majority in 2 of the 3 branches then you have only yourselves to blame. You got the government you voted for.
Personally TwinkyP I've decided that Republican r@tf*cker is going to be all the rage(It means I refuse to be a Democratic apologist and actually paid attention during the primary)....I hear Maddow was on TV whining about the Supreme Court decision and how Obama made promises......how Republican r@tf*cker of her. Too bad she didn't pay attention when he gave McClurkin the podium. oooopppsie. Heh. I hate it when people drop their pom poms. C'mon and Gimmee a P.
Hey, you're the one that called yourself a girl moron, I'm just following your lead, since it's fits you so well. Boy, you pumaturds are a flighty bunch. Must be the bitterness, eh? Or the hobnobbing with right-wing assholes. Let's hope you get a chance to vote for your hero Palin again, ensuring another 4 years of Obama rule! Woohoo!
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 12:14 PMTwinky P
Do you really believe your arguments sound intelligent or are you just okay with sounding like an idiot?
You sound like a three year old going "I know you are but what am I"
My statement stands, in 2 years no one is going to believe the mean ol' powerless conservatives stopped healthcare( or at least no one who isn't considered to be one of the 30% deadender supporters of the left. Lets hear it for being the moral equivalent of Bush's base). The blame will fall in the hands of the people who hold the power. That ain't conservatives. Whining for the conservatives to "come to the table, isn't going to work for progressives anymore then it worked for the GOP.
Posted by cwaltz at June 9, 2009 12:28 PMGod Lord, are cwaltz's comments another instance of Can't-Give-it-Up primary bitterness?
I take cwaltz's point that we aren't going to be in a much stronger position in DC than we are right now, and a failure to deliver any reforms of consequence will ALSO be a Dem failure, especially of the Dem leaders. As to "history being revised", I'll await your book on Primary 2008.
But that doesn't mean that the nation's conservaturds will be off the hook for their vitriolic 24/7 health care disinformation campaign and universal opposition to reform, any reform---that's the only instance of "universal" they're ever behind!
I still find "conservatism" to be a greater evil than historical revisionism, even if it were to occur.....
Posted by euzoius at June 9, 2009 12:42 PMDo you really believe your arguments sound intelligent
What argument, you stupid troll? I'm laughing at your whiney ass titty baby routine! There's no argument other than making fun of an idiot whose sole purpose in life is to say "I told you so." euzoius, this turd voted for McCain, believes Palin's deep, deep stupidity was an Obama manufactured meme, and thinks she alone will set history straight in the next election. Girl moron thinks she's that important, and it's hilarious! And yes, you gotta check out the Effluence for laughs. They've spent the last year, unto the last hour chatting about ways to say "I told you so" and "neener neener" to normal people. It's comedy gold, I tells ya! Still no mention of the famous "whitey tape" though.
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 01:12 PMI'm not in the least bitter. Why should I be? The people who ought to be bitter are the ones who actually believed they were going to get health care out of a person who used Republican style Harry and Louise ads during the primary. Or believed that gays were going to get equal treatment out of a guy who allowed his campaign podium to be utilized to spread the message "gayness is a disease." This administration is exactly what I figured it to be. It's a fast train to nowheresville, most likely to be followed by a faster train veering more to the right. Congratulations on that stunning "victory" though.
As for the conservatives being on the hook, I wouldn't hold my breath. Polling doesn't support that position. Read the latest Rass reports. In six out of the ten key issues the conservatives are more trusted. The majority recognize that the Democrats hold leadership in 2 of the 3 branches. In a two party system the one holding the power doesn't get to lay the blame on the party without any power(ask the GOP how that worked out for them as a strategy). In the Senate the Democrats have an almost filibuster proof majority. If they can't enact reform now then they were never going to be able to. That's exactly how the majority are going to view this on health care or any other issue. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.
I'm sure if you send Congressional Democrats a sternly worded letter though, that y'all can fix it. Just make sure to tell them your really, really, really angry. I hear that's the key to getting them to listen.
Twinky P
Why in the world would people who were right whine? Don't project dear.
As for the next election, I leave that for you and your alternate reality dwellers to commentate on. (How are the Democrats doing in the alternate reality where McCain won, since we know you dwell in that reality quite often?)
Poor li'l thing, babbling still? Your bitterness must keep you awake nights. Especially knowing you voted for a moron, but then, morons stick together and form Effluvia to piss and moan to each other since no one else really cares, except to laugh at your punchline lives. Thanks for the laughs, sweetie, you aren't a total waste of flesh!
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 02:36 PMKeep talkin' Twinky P
Those that can't make a credible argument resort to acting out like a two year old and namecalling. Your maturity level is showing.
It doesn't say much when health care hinges on a DEMOCRATIC leader that takes single payer off the table from the get go or if the DEMOCRATIC president is quite comfortable with the Republican talking frames(since he actually used them during the primary). This idea that anyone is going to be able to pass the blame off on the GOP when those facts stand in the way of reality, are just wishfully thinking.
I'll repeat again Twinky P,
The person you selected is now willing to use the very idea that the GOP candidate floated during this election cycle. Tell me again how much more morally and intellectually superior to me your choice was. I could use another good laugh.
Boy, if cwaltz was ever a Dem, that's some real bitterness talking.
Not too much to say on what health care reform approach you actually favor, cwaltz, but an awful lot of hopin' n' wishin' the Dems fail to deliver anything. Hard to distinguish you from a conservaturd at this point, sorry to say.
Kids, this is your mind on political bitterness....any questions?
Posted by euzoius at June 9, 2009 03:20 PMActually, fuckwit, I had "selected" Hillary, who wouldn't be doing any different today than Obama is doing. I hear she's "concerned" about putting out the torture photos, too. You need to look at reality, darlin', not the set of wrong assumptions you make all day long, based on bitterness and sore loserness. But you're just a kid, no one expects much from you. Except me, I expect you'll be doing this comedy routine for some time to come. And because you get no respect, you'll eventually turn into a republican 'cos they love turncoats (to their faces, and laugh at them behind their backs.)
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 03:24 PMBitterness?
Are we supposed to be grateful that Obama and the Democratic Congress isn't delivering on health care reform?
Posted by bugman at June 9, 2009 03:57 PMAre we supposed to be grateful that Obama and the Democratic Congress isn't delivering on health care reform?
I thought the debate was just starting. You mean they've already failed? Wow.
Posted by Twinky P* at June 9, 2009 04:56 PMI thought the debate was just starting. You mean they've already failed? Wow.
They failed when they took single-payer off the table.
Posted by bugman at June 9, 2009 05:39 PMFor what National Health Care would look like, we can look at Massachusetts. Especially since this is what Obama and the Congress seem to be modeling after.
In summary:
* national health care will cost you more (from $12K today to $16K)
* your health care costs will go up year after year (10-12%)
* your deductables will be higher (it will cost you more for deductables or copays)
* the health care program will face chronic budget shortfalls because of costs.
* small businesses will be discouraged from starting or continuing, causing unemployment to rise.
* your waiting time to get an appointment will double.
Here is the text of what's going on in Mass.
Health-care costs continue to rise much faster in Massachusetts than in the nation as a whole. Proponents of the reform promised that it would reduce costs. Gov. Mitt Romney said “the cost of health care would be reduced” and the plan would make health insurance “affordable” for every Massachusetts citizen. Supporters went so far as to suggest that the reforms would reduce the price of individual insurance policies by 25 to 40 percent. In reality, since the program became law, insurance premiums have been increasing by 10 to 12 percent per year, nearly double the national average. On average, health insurance costs $16,897 a year for a family of four in Massachusetts, compared to $12,700 nationally. Meanwhile, total health-care spending in the state has increased by 28 percent.New regulation and bureaucracy are limiting consumer choice and adding to costs. A new mandate for prescription-drug coverage was added, and high-deductible policies were restricted. Some Massachusetts residents who were happy with their old insurance policies have had to change their coverage in order to comply with the mandates.
Although much of the burden falls on individual policy-holders, the costs to the taxpayers have also skyrocketed. Despite one tax increase already, the program faces huge deficits in the future. As a result, the state is considering caps on insurance premiums, cuts in reimbursements to providers, and even the possibility of a “global budget” on health-care spending — with its attendant rationing.
The reforms have added a new burden on companies, especially smaller ones, wanting to do business in the state. The Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council cites the Massachusetts health-care regulations and the mandate on companies as its reasons for ranking Massachusetts dead last among the 50 states for business-friendly health-care policies.
A shortage of providers, combined with higher demand, is increasing waiting times to see a physician, especially primary-care providers. The wait for seeing an internist, for example, has nearly doubled since the reforms were implemented.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDNiY2ZiNTZkYzgyNWViYzU3ZDBkYmYwZTc4ZmUxNmI=
And since we got the "TNR's" take on the National Health Care debate from JFixxshit, here is the "DKos" version, with a real discussion link provided.
Posted by Seven of Six at June 9, 2009 09:50 PMFrom Tom in Paine:
On May 12th a group of doctors and nurses were thrown out of a Senate hearing on health care reform when they got up to protest the hearings. What they were protesting was, that not a single witness before the committee was there to advocate universal single payer health care which is the only real kind of health care reform that matters and is the kind that is in place in most other western countries.
[...]
So what does it say about Obama and his approach to health care that, so far the Senate Finance committee has held three hearings on health care reform and to date there has not been one single witness advocating a single payer universal health system? Instead the only witnesses have been the health care industry,the drug companies and insurance companies, the same people who stood behind Obama when he announced his laughable and pathetic "breath through" by insurance companies to limit the amount of increase in their premiums by 1.5% a year.
SINGLE PAYER
Posted by bugman at June 9, 2009 11:30 PMThanks to the ongoing pressure and dedication of single payer activists across the country, who the Washington Post noted this past weekend, "have spent months hounding Democratic lawmakers and organizing demonstrations, including one that resulted in 13 arrests at a Senate hearing last month," a Congressional committee will for the first time in the current proceedings on healthcare reform, hold a public hearing on single payer Wednesday.Posted by Twinky P* at June 10, 2009 05:44 AMThe hearing, "Exploring the Single Payer Option," will be held on Wednesday, June 10 at 10:30 a.m. in Room 2175 in the Rayburn House Office Building by the Health, Employment, Labor and Pensions.
Thanks to the ongoing pressure and dedication of single payer activists across the country
See what happens when people don't STFU and wait for their ponies to arrive?
Posted by bugman at June 10, 2009 08:24 AM