Pessimist, at the risk of being accused of trollery, which is a rather useless term, anyway, I just want to point out a few things about your latest posting.
One, you are going to be disappointed if you think John Kerry has the personal strength to stand up and do a Howard Dean for you. The man hardly knows how to walk for all the "nuance" involved in putting one thing (or, foot) before the other. Kerry's a total weathervane and y'all are stuck with him.
Two, Nader is right, basically: regardless of which party or person that takes the White House, the ultimate interest to be served is that of the rich man and his corporations. If you believe otherwise, you are a fool. Kerry, like the Kennedys he so loves to emulate, is a rich man who can afford to talk like he knows something about the little man. But he knows shit about people like me. That awful Lady Macbeth he's got riding shotgun knows even less than shit. That won't keep him from pandering to us, though, in an effort to distract people from the ridiculously contradictory votes and statements he's made about the war for Iraq. But you're stuck with him. If you really want to make a statement, vote for Nader.
And last, it simply won't do to insinuate that President Bush and that evil cabal of neocons (i.e., meddling Jews) has pursued the war for Iraq simply to feather their own nests and those of their corporate sponsors (pretty strange terms coming from a pro-war type, huh?). Sure, there's money to be made at it, but name me a war where the corporate interests haven't benefited? Does that, in itself, negate the value of prosecuting this war? Of course not. There are far more sublime and long-term reasons to do what we have to do, not least of which is to begin the decades-long process of secularizing and modernizing the Arab-Muslim world. That's going to be a hell of a job, but it is plainly necessary. That ---and for very few other reasons--- is why I support George W. Bush completely on the issue of this war.
History will not remember who made what profits; it will only recall that we did what we had to do to change a sick and corrupt culture.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 17, 2004 05:32 PMOK, Perfessor, since you are mostly conversational, I'll respond.
I do have concerns that Kerry isn't up to the challenge. My prompting him to do things, as you have no doubt noted, are intended to inspire others who feel as I do to take some kind of action. There is no other choice but to make the best of the situation.
Nader is right, but not to the degree to which you give him credit. Those corporations and wealthy types who do support Kerry I can live with easier than Commander Carrier-Landing. I have been open about my desire for a real third political option in this country, but this is not the time to be pushing for such a state of political affairs.
As for nest-feathering, that was never the original intent of the Bush/PNAC cabal. Power and control are, with wealth being the goodies handed out to supporters. the insane desire to rule the world is going to take Bush down, and has already begun. Doubt me? Check out W's capitulation to the demand that he surrender control of Iraq to the UN. He's in over his head, and his team knows it. Getting out from under Iraq is W's only chance at an electoral victory.
There are far more sublime and long-term reasons to do what we have to do, not least of which is to begin the decades-long process of secularizing and modernizing the Arab-Muslim world.
You, sir, to borrow your own word, are a fool if you think that the Islamic world will ever submit peacefully to this in your lifetime. I have been researching this very topic with an eye toward a future post, and my sources, all from the Islamic world, would support my contention.
Take the Christian approach (I assume you claim such affiliation) and put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Would you, and by extension all of America, ever submit, even at the point of a gun, to the desire of the militant Islamics in the world who would have you convert to Islam and live under Sharia?
QED
That's going to be a hell of a job, but it is plainly necessary.
Plainly necessary? Please do illuminate yours reasons to we the unworthy as to THAT justification! I am serious - I would like a rational, reasonable presentation of your case (as you mostly make above) to support your claim, not another ranting screed about how stupid we all are for not recognizing the greatness of Owwer Leedur.
That ---and for very few other reasons--- is why I support George W. Bush completely on the issue of this war.
You have my sincere condolences.
History will not remember who made what profits; it will only recall that we did what we had to do to change a sick and corrupt culture.
And we certainly are trying to do that very thing - here in America.
Posted by pessimist at April 17, 2004 06:23 PMit simply won't do to insinuate that President Bush and that evil cabal of neocons (i.e., meddling Jews) has pursued the war for Iraq simply to feather their own nests and those of their corporate sponsors
Actually, there were three distinct reasons for the Iraq War. For Bush, it was a personal Family Vendetta; for Cheney, it was for oil and profit; for the NeoCons, it was to bind the United States to the Likudnik crazies in Israel.
Each of them got some of what they wanted -- but we all will be paying the price, for generations to come.
When John Kerry called them crooked liars, he almost got it right -- they are the biggest bunch of Lying Crooks to ever occupy the White House. Compared with the Bush Cheney Gangsters, Al Capone was a two bit punk.
Posted by ck at April 17, 2004 07:05 PMpessimist -- there's an open italic tag, half way down.
Posted by ck at April 17, 2004 07:15 PMPessimist on Kerry: There is no other choice but to make the best of the situation.
A ringing endorsement! But it's no secret that the Left has lost all of its idealism, and now its adherents are content to make deals with devils. What a loss for ideological diversity! To wit:
Nader is right, but not to the degree to which you give him credit. Those corporations and wealthy types who do support Kerry I can live with easier than Commander Carrier-Landing. I have been open about my desire for a real third political option in this country, but this is not the time to be pushing for such a state of political affairs.
This is the merest sort of rationalizing, both in terms of what corporate interests you're willing to abide and in deferring your frustrated hopes that real alternatives can be realized. Again, what makes you think that Kerry is going to be able to do anything about our involvement in Iraq? You're absolutely deluding yourself! The first and biggest blow we'll have to recover from in the event that Kerry wins will be the very obvious perception around the world that Islamofascism dictated the election of an American President! Can you live with that?
[...T]he insane desire to rule the world is going to take Bush down, and has already begun. Doubt me? Check out W's capitulation to the demand that he surrender control of Iraq to the UN. He's in over his head, and his team knows it. Getting out from under Iraq is W's only chance at an electoral victory.
The President is exploring his options. Nothing is determined yet. But you seem to think, along with Turd Kennedy, that the whole war was plotted and scripted in advance. There is absolutely no patience on your side of the argument. No one who hated the President before the war is now willing to give him the slack and support he needs to find our way to success. Of course he and his advisers and generals have made mistakes! What war isn't full of mistakes? It is the ends that justify the means!
There are far more sublime and long-term reasons to do what we have to do, not least of which is to begin the decades-long process of secularizing and modernizing the Arab-Muslim world.
You, sir, to borrow your own word, are a fool if you think that the Islamic world will ever submit peacefully to this in your lifetime. I have been researching this very topic with an eye toward a future post, and my sources, all from the Islamic world, would support my contention.
I wouldn't expect those sources to suggest otherwise. But the Mohammedans' peaceful submission is irrelevant; they must be made to accept a better way of living and thinking. Just like Germany. Even the ones who weren't active Nazis got the Judenhass burnt right out of 'em, as was their dessert.
Take the Christian approach (I assume you claim such affiliation) and put yourself in their shoes for a moment.
Ha! That would make your calculations so much easier, wouldn't it? But, as a matter of very cold fact, I am an atheist. A post-Protestant atheist, but one nonetheless.
Would you, and by extension all of America, ever submit, even at the point of a gun, to the desire of the militant Islamics in the world who would have you convert to Islam and live under Sharia?
That's rather the point, isn't it? I say that we, as free-thinking, free-living democratically-endowed republicans who enjoy all the benefits and happinesses of a modern society, have an obligation to either destroy those Muslims who don't get the idea or "convert" them to a more secular worldview. That is our charge now, and we can't permit the seditious and morally-relative Leftists among us (no offense, probably) to subvert our purpose.
QED
Hardly.
That's going to be a hell of a job, but it is plainly necessary.
Plainly necessary? Please do illuminate yours reasons to we the unworthy as to THAT justification!
See above.
I am serious - I would like a rational, reasonable presentation of your case (as you mostly make above) to support your claim, not another ranting screed about how stupid we all are for not recognizing the greatness of Owwer Leedur.
Who cares about these stereotypes of cult-worship? I support Bush the Younger because I know where he stands with respect to the Mohammedan menace. He isn't going to allow these extremists to destroy our civilization.
But, if you want a taste of Machiavelli, here goes: Bush and his meddling Jew friends used the events of 11 Sepetmber 2001 to take us into war in the heart of Islamofascism. And Iraq was a logical, historically-precedented choice as a place to make our stand. Too bad that the American Left and most of Europe turned into a race of Neville Chamberlains overnight. But Bush is on the war path and History will justify him. I believe that with every atom in my body.
History will not remember who made what profits; it will only recall that we did what we had to do to change a sick and corrupt culture.
And we certainly are trying to do that very thing - here in America.
As I say, there's much to be overcome, including a Left that has lost its idealism.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 17, 2004 08:26 PM
toby
it seems to me that george is unaware of the existence of other cultures,other countries and of the ideas of other people unlike himself.he is not interested and is incurious.whatever he believes is right because he believes in it.
the president means what he says,but does not know what he means.this is the same man who is the leader of the free world,sounds pretty scary to me.
You know, Perfessor, you live in an incredibly sad world in which you are always right and nothing can be any different than what you say it can be.
I don't want to live in your Philip K Dick world, the one where people, who are just as deluded as you in thinking that they are superior over all others, decide who is to live how, and then call that freedom and liberty once it's imposed.
You took Nietzsche far too personally, emulate Hitler even if you never read him, and must not have much of a life outside of trolling the blogs. When you state Even the ones who weren't active Nazis got the Judenhass burnt right out of 'em, it gives you away.
Just what gives us the right to decide they must be made to accept a better way of living and thinking? You state that you are an atheist, so you cannot call upon your God for your justification.
You say that we have an obligation to either destroy those Muslims who don't get the idea or "convert" them to a more secular worldview. That is our charge now. An obligation to whom? And just who made that 'our charge'? Who are your authorities? None of your 'justification' is as 'plainly obvious' as you seem to feel it is.
You do not have absolute power any more than I have, and yet you desire the forced subjugation of over a billion people and feel justified to do so. And you call me the idealist.
My advice to you is to get back on your medications before they haul you off in a net. It's becoming obvious that you are too deranged to have unsupervised control of your own life much longer. You aren't getting any better attempting to play Risk in the real world like your ubermenschen PNAC heros - and they are easily as insane as you.
I am tired of your reading words into my statements that aren't there, and having to read your scurrilous and insulting characterizations, which are only intended to build you up in your own mind at our expense. All you care about is dominance, and you don't care who gets killed (by others) for you to attain it.
If you were any kind of a man, you would be out there in Iraq making your goal of world domination happen. Maybe then you might get real.
Posted by pessimist at April 18, 2004 01:36 AM"more secular worldview"
You mean, making them French? Because frankly, the American worldview nowadays is just as far from secular than the Saudi worldview. In fact, Iraq under Saddam was way more secular than the US.
So, if Toby plans to root out the Christian Coalition and wants to reeducate roughly 200 mio Americans after having reeducated 200 mio Arabs, I may be keener to accept his position ;)
doesn't it seem a little more likely that the rest of the world might help pull our nuts out of the fire if we were"led" by someone other than the current schmuck? there's one difference. and while kerry definitely punked out on the war resolution, it's pretty clear President Kerry wouldn't have initiated Operation Desert Clusterf*ck.
unless it's a skull and bones thing, then i guess he would have to avenge the attempt on poppy's life.
Posted by flatulus at April 18, 2004 09:14 AMYou know, Perfessor, you live in an incredibly sad world in which you are always right and nothing can be any different than what you say it can be.
That's not how I see things, but straw men don't have opinions, anyway, so...
I don't want to live in your Philip K Dick world, the one where people, who are just as deluded as you in thinking that they are superior over all others, decide who is to live how, and then call that freedom and liberty once it's imposed.
If you have something to say in defense of Islam, please share it. Otherwise, my revulsion at that culture is understandable and justifiable in terms of how I view women's rights, civil liberties, the benefits of modernity, etc. You are a moral relativist who can't stand the way the Yokel-in-Chief has framed the issues. You're tripped up by his ineloquence and his moral clarity. Find your idealism again, Pessimist, because what you're working with right now is unworthy of a liberal man of conscience.
You took Nietzsche far too personally, emulate Hitler even if you never read him, and must not have much of a life outside of trolling the blogs. When you state Even the ones who weren't active Nazis got the Judenhass burnt right out of 'em, it gives you away.
I enjoy Nietzsche, but I don't emulate him or Hitler. Your accusation is scurrilous. And if you had the intelligence to understand my remarks on the Germans, you wouldn't say such a thing. So up yours. As for my "trolling," that's just a label you can slap on someone whom you don't like and are unable to debate.
Just what gives us the right to decide they must be made to accept a better way of living and thinking? You state that you are an atheist, so you cannot call upon your God for your justification.
Again, if you can tell me why I, as a secular Westerner whose civilization is a moral, political, and intellectual exemplar to the world, should abide the medievalism and superstitions of these Submitters, then I will hear you out.
You say that we have an obligation to either destroy those Muslims who don't get the idea or "convert" them to a more secular worldview. That is our charge now. An obligation to whom?
To mankind. To ourselves. Tell me how the modern world is benefited by sharia, jihad, and anti-Semitism. Tell me how the virtual enslavement of half their population (i.e., women and girls) is a principle that a Western liberal can excuse.
And just who made that 'our charge'?
Noblesse oblige, sir. John F. Kennedy understood that charge and explicitly defended it in his Inaugural Address. Too bad that all that's left of such conviction is the chaff of that wheat.
Who are your authorities? None of your 'justification' is as 'plainly obvious' as you seem to feel it is.
You embody the indecision and timidity of Leftism. You have no will to stand up and say that we have an obligation to the survival of humanity. What is the end of your isolationism? Do you think you are entitled to go unmolested through the course of your life and through the course of this nation's life without having to reaffirm its value and to fight for it? What did Franklin say? Those who would choose security over liberty deserve neither.
You do not have absolute power any more than I have, and yet you desire the forced subjugation of over a billion people and feel justified to do so. And you call me the idealist.
I have power as a citizen to speak my mind and to support my government and to promote the value of my civilization. That is all I can do. But that's the thing: I have that right and privilege. I am free to so defend this way of life and to stand on my soap box. So do you. So fight for it. Don't act like it's an unearned entitlement.
My advice to you is to get back on your medications before they haul you off in a net. It's becoming obvious that you are too deranged to have unsupervised control of your own life much longer.
Shameful. Anyone who might read this knows how shamefully you have responded to me.
You aren't getting any better attempting to play Risk in the real world like your ubermenschen PNAC heros - and they are easily as insane as you.
You already lost when you compared me to Hitler. The rest of this is just you losing your cool.
I am tired of your reading words into my statements that aren't there, and having to read your scurrilous and insulting characterizations, which are only intended to build you up in your own mind at our expense.
Don't hide behind pronouns like you do your pseudonym, Pessimist: I got your number. Don't wake up to find that it's been tattooed on your forearm.
All you care about is dominance, and you don't care who gets killed (by others) for you to attain it.
I care deeply for the young men and women who are dying for my country and way of life. Don't dare say otherwise.
If you were any kind of a man, you would be out there in Iraq making your goal of world domination happen. Maybe then you might get real.
I've never served in uniform, but that doesn't detract from my right and honor to defend the sacrifices of those who have and do. Those young soldiers and Marines are the fathers and mothers of a new world. They have already changed the course of History, and all that's left to me to do is to remember them to posterity and to justify their cause to those who are yet unconvinced.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 18, 2004 09:28 AMpessimist,
It looks like someone has a major crush on you. Otherwise, why would they be spending so much time and effort trying to convince you and everyone else here that his opinion is the only opinion that matters and is the right opinion. In the mean time said person will continue to belittle and badmouth contrarian points of view and opinions. Because this person is so certain that he is correct and can judge what is right for others.
It's amazing this person is so certain of the righteousness of their own personal beliefs and opinions that they fail to see the similarity to those he claims should be "civilized" to his way of life and thinking. This person never once can understand that maybe they don't want his way of life or in their opinion, belief system, and own self righteous manner don't think his way of life is better or more civilized. The irony here is just amazing, but I am sure that this person is too blind to see it.
Posted by emal at April 18, 2004 01:44 PMI guess I should tell him I'm straight, no?
Posted by pessimist at April 18, 2004 03:50 PMYeah, he can still dream can't he.
Posted by emal at April 18, 2004 06:03 PMAnd now you're fag-bashing? First you assume I'm a Christian and now you think I'm gay? Instead of a lot of guessing your way into diversionary ad hominemism, try addressing the substance of the devastation I've made of your lame-assed ideology. That is, if hatred of our President can be construed as such.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 18, 2004 06:40 PMpessimist, I didn't mean to do any fag bashing here. I just pointed out said poster's close mindedness and rigid thought processes similar in some ways to some of those fanatics this same person was claiming we need to "civilize". Obviously that was something he failed to see. Now it appears this person is reading things into posts that aren't true. This person needs to get a life and loosen up a little bit. And even if this person is/was gay, there is nothing wrong with it. No it is not the person in terms of race, color, creed ,sexual orientation, faith preference, age, eye color, education level, or current profession that I had a problem with. No, what I had a problem with was this person's "my opinion is the right/only opinion and anyone who questions or disagrees is wrong" mentality, but you already knew that.
Posted by emal at April 18, 2004 07:17 PMemal
He's just upset that you have his number. I fail to see where he got the bashing part, for if he were a real female and had a crush on me, no one would call that bashing!
I happen to work with a guy I know has a crush on me, and I can live with that. If the Perfessor wants to be another unrequited admirer of mine, who am I to deny him the esoteric pleasures of his sweet torture?
As for him actually having a discussion with anyone on this page, especially after reading words of wisdom like yours which exposes him for the intellectual fraud that he is, I have little hope he will ever leave his fantasy world and grow up. Mommy's trust fund makes that impossible.
Oh, Toby Buddy, as long as I have your attention:
Try addressing the substance of the devastation George makes of your world with his lame-assed greed-based ideology. That is, if your hatred of our liberalism can be constrained long enough.
You know, son, a little fatherly advice: if you spent as much time on developing interesting topics on your own web site as much as you like spewing your vile hatred on ours, you just might make some new friends who share your fascist interests. You might attract, oh, someone like, say Dr. Bill 'Catgutter' Frist or Newt Thingfish. (He'd be a good match for you - so much intellectual power wasted by insane hatred.) Maybe Your Diety will deign to come on down to your Earth and leave his 'Rush Limbaugh' tag on his comment! You might even get an email from Yer Manly-Mann Heeroe, Commander Carrier-Landing himself! I hear he like to hum the Horst Wessel Lied while he struts around Navy flight decks pretending he's a real man (I know you can identify since you're too good to be a sailor yourself!), so you might add that as a theme song for your web site.
Posted by pessimist at April 19, 2004 01:45 AMSo you're saying you can't defend Islam and its extremists? Why not? If all cultures are equally valid, then surely you can come up with something.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 19, 2004 08:27 AMPessimist:
Oh, Toby Buddy, as long as I have your attention:
Try addressing the substance of the devastation George makes of your world with his lame-assed greed-based ideology. That is, if your hatred of our liberalism can be constrained long enough.
If you've actually visited my blog, you'd know that I am a liberal on many important issues. So don't go around thinking that your "enlightened" views are incompatible with a staunchly pro-war perspective. You just happen to be possessed by an irrational hatred of a man whom you believe stole the Election of 2000. And all your anti-war blathering proceeds from that, and not from any well-considered principles.
But here are some of the "fascist" beliefs I hold: full reproductive rights for women, legalization of marihuana, the progressive tax code, free speech, strong anti-trust regulations, a higher minimum wage, greater Government investment in alternative sources of energy, tax rebates for those who implement the usage of those sources, far greater access to public and continuing education for all our citizens, greater environmental protections, and full civil recognition of gay marriage. I'm also an atheist. Do you think these positions qualify me as a Republican? Hardly.
As for the President's greed-based ideology, all I can tell you is that John Kerry is a far wealthier man than Bush. That is to say, Ralph Nader is right: both parties are dirty with corporate money. The biggest joke of all is that people like you actually believe that electing Kerry will stop any of that or make America a more economically egalitarian society. Time to grow up, Pessimist.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 19, 2004 02:36 PM