Thanks to Larre's posting last night about tonight's Frontline's The Jesus Factor, I actually found time to watch it. And I found it very chilling.
Bush is definitely appealing to the fundamentalists and as the program said, it is faulty theology for him to believe that God is on his side and supports his warmongering. Nothing in the Bible justifies his empire building nor his belief that he can distinguish good from evil (and he, of course, is good and anyone against him is evil). Or does he really believe that God talks to him only? Nothing in the bible says that America is the exception to all other countries and societies in the world and totally GOOD. In fact, many points in the bible warned of people not seeing their own faults when pointing out the faults (evil) of the other. And nothing Jesus did or said could ever be implied to be supporting Bush's violent and absolutist actions.
The God that Bush listens to is not the God of this universe (obviously a deity capable of infinite complexity and subtlety), but is rather a false god of the warmongers and other lovers of death. How else to describe those who love war more than peace and believe that military force will solve the problems of the world. (Boy, the rush some get from the killing of their enemies and the humiliating of their women and children. Such a show of manliness.)
The future of our country and our world is seriously at risk because we have such a delusional and unethical person in charge of our country.
Posted by Mary at April 30, 2004 01:09 AMBetter to come to God through a prophet of peace and brotherhood than through a military man who preached jihad and killing Jews and Christians who don't submit to your infallible doctrine.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 30, 2004 01:33 AMYes, Toby, we certainly could use a lot more of the real Jesus and less Pop Calvinism. And I quite agree that the medieval Crusdaer Popes were very destructive.
Posted by jlb at April 30, 2004 04:34 AM"...Better to come to God through a prophet of peace and brotherhood..." Toby the Baptist
Toby, are you really claiming that Mr. Bush is a prophet of peace and brotherhood...?
If you are, than you are seriously delusional...
Requisite:
(º)(º)
- wÒÓ†
Oh, whoops, wrong blog. :)
Posted by idiosynchronic at April 30, 2004 06:26 AMThe God I know is a loving God. He is the God of the New Testament, not of the old.
There is a god, however, who is the divider, the deceiver, the murderer.
Posted by Judith at April 30, 2004 07:00 AMThe God I know is a loving God.
He is the God of the New Testament, not of the old.
There is a god, however, who is the deceiver, the divider and the murderer.
Posted by Judith at April 30, 2004 07:04 AMReligion is gonna get the world blown up. Toddlers with imaginary friends and suitcase nukes, that's what we humanoids are.
People like woot are such a great moment-of-zen antidote to all the tumult. Thanks for posting that, idiosynchronic - it's positively refrigerator-worthy.
Posted by Sharkbabe at April 30, 2004 07:05 AMI'd like to show Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft the photos of the atrocious and despicable treatment of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers and mercenaries, and then to tell us why our God is better than their God.
Then I'd like to have Bush's pre-war WMD statements replayed for him, and then show him photos of wounded Iraqi women and children, and photos of the battlefields where Iraqi men lie dead - and then ask him what God is now whispering in his ear.
Careful, Dorothy! You might be invited to join Yaser Hamdi and Jose Padilla for an all-expense paid unlimited stay at the Norfolk Navy Brig Hotel and Resort! All non-believing blasphemers who doubt that God chose Owwer Leedur for us will end up there as soon as John Ashcroft gets done ridding America of pornography.
Posted by pessimist at April 30, 2004 07:15 AMHas the US been TOO successful and TOO prosperous? Has that success and "peace" so gotten into our heads that we have now wished to dumb ourselves down to utter physical and intellectual laziness?
I ponder that question today as I scour through various articles about why our current presidential race is such a dead heat and why, based on the polls mind you, we are such a polarized and divided nation. We have all gotten so caught up in our own lives and successes that we may have actually forgotten what this country is about. For a generation that is more focused on sports, video games, movies, reality TV, voting for mediocre performers (28 million votes were cast in the last American Idol competition this past week), we view our history and the things that make this country grow and more protected, such as voting, with a growing sense of ignorance and disdain.
I remember a joke that one of my favorite comedians, Chris Rock, said about the difference between black people and n***ers (despite his regular use of it, I find it hard to even type the word). His joke was "N***ers love to not know - nothing a n***er loves more than not knowing the answer to your question. We could be like 'uh.., what's the capital of Zaire?' 'I don't know that shit! Keepin' it REAL!' N***ers love to keep it real...real DUMB!"
That joke says a lot about today's America. A lot of people in this country would rather sit in front of their televisions, playing video games or watching sports and DVDs, and not give a damn about anything else around you. They have effectively dumbed themselves down by only wanting to have fun and never really working their minds to further understand not only the world around them but themselves too. They would rather hand over their major decisions in life to someone they feel that is a nice enough guy to them - this nice enough guy to them is George Bush. That can be one of the only logical reasons (including Americans refusing to admit defeat or lose for it makes them look weak) why so many people still cling to this man.
The fact that we are letting this man get a pass for all the crap he's done to us and this world has practically made incompetence to be a virtue - a quality we should all strive to hold. If that's the case, what does our future hold? How can this country ever be a beacon of freedom and democracy if we allow incompetence and corruption to be highly respected notions of society thanks in part to our government, corporate American, and ignorant Americans?
Posted by Tony at April 30, 2004 07:16 AMTony...
Beautiful post.
I too wonder where we are going. When more emphasis is place on SOL's and the immediate fix the past is getting glossed over, no matter how many times we are doomed to repeat it. I remember when Hillary quoted the African proverb, it takes a village to raise a child, she was ridiculed by the right, far right, and the moderate right in between. But is true, how can we be a global power if we neglect the people and the world we live in? The selective righteousness evident in this admin is frightening. GWB says he is on a mission of God to strike out the terrorists. OBL is on a mission of Allah to kill the infidels. Tell me how are these two men different? I say lock them both in a room and put the key on a table in the middle.
This country is torn right down the middle. And we continue to let it happen. Every great empire crumbled: Africa, Macedonia, Rome, Britain, and Spain. This worries me. We are only as strong as our neighbor. My neighbor has no clue of what is going on and really doesn't care. Tell me how that makes us safer.
This war is breeding OBL's and SH's like mosquitoes in stagnant water, but we will win this war against an invisible enemy of our own creation.
Posted by anthony at April 30, 2004 07:47 AMThe World Turned Upside Down?
Down thread a ways, in A True Conservative Against the War "Jo" makes the familiar argument that we shouldn't have gone to war against Iraq but now that we're there we must stay and finish the job -- that we can't just leave behind the mess we have created.
That is a position held by many. Indeed, it may well be the one thing more Americans can agree upon than any other, since so many anti-war people (John Kerry included) as well as pro-war types (like Bush, of course) subscribe to it.
I will admit I have entertained similar thoughts myself from time to time. It's not that I am a "flip-flopper" (yet another debasement of the language for which I enthusiastically blame the White House). It is that I have an emotional need to believe it is true.
I am a patriot. I love my country. I am grieved when it makes mistakes which undermine our self-interests for as long as we can foresee, violates international law and human rights, loses the respect of the rest of the world, murders tens of thousands of innocents, and wastes the lives of our own children. I want to believe that when America has done such things, it has the courage, will, and means to own up to its crimes, right the wrongs it has committed, and clean up the "mess" it has made -- to use Jo's word.
But for as long as I've been tempted to share Jo's same opinion on this matter, I've also been aware that in some deeper recess of my mind there is an insistent little historical voice saying, "Sound familiar, you twit? How soon you have forgotten!"
That little voice keeps pointing out that almost the same arguments, word-for-word, helped to sustain and prolong the Vietnam conflict over more than a decade (1962-1974). (Two decades, if you count the French occupation which we helped to finance). Trying to "clean up" the Vietnam mess we had made, the U.S. deposed half a dozen or more Vietnamese "presidents" who had been hand-picked by us in the first place, only to replace them with other puppets.
'Yes, Vietnam was a mistake,' most Americans (and politicians) came to concede, 'but now that we're there we have to finish the job. We can't just leave those poor South Vietnamese to their fate.'
And then we would send more American soldiers to their deaths. In the end, trying to "clean up" our own mess only prolonged it, made it worse, killed more than 57,000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, and poisoned for generations large swaths of the jungle and farmlands.
In moments of absolute clarity when it is possible for me to overcome the emotionalism of my patriotic fervor and penetrate to the truth behind the self-affirming shibboleths which I desperately would like to believe, I realize that such arguments as were voiced during the Vietnam era were badly mistaken -- and so, too, I fear are the similar arguments when it comes to Iraq.
We made the mess in Vietnam. And we've made one in Iraq. To be sure -- then and now -- most of us feel the United States has a moral responsibility to clean them up. But, in Vietnam the historical truth was that "cleaning up" the mess ultimately meant getting the hell out and letting the Vietnamese do it themselves by running their own country. They didn't need the U.S. to show them how to do it. They didn't need us to "pick" their leadership. And we didn't need them to stop other regional governments from "falling" like "dominoes" to "godless communism."
Ironically, within months of our own withdrawl from South Vietnam, the united nation of "Vietnam" was engaged in a border war against against Communist China -- which only helps to underscore how very badly our nation had misjudged the situation for so very many years.
If, as I fear, there are in the Vietnam experience inexact but instructive parallels, then the lesson to be learned today may be that the best way for the United States to "clean up" the mess it's made in Iraq is by ending its occupation. Period.
I put aside concerns over "losing face" -- never a good argument for continuing to commit a fundamental mistake. In Vietnam, the "face" we preserved for ten years was a murderous and incompetent one, notable only for what Nixon, with some exaggeration, characterized as that of a "pitiful, helpless giant."
Fears of leaving behind the seeds of an Iraq civil war may be legitimate, but can we be so sure the risk of misery and death from that possibility outweighs the certainty of misery and death from our continued presence? Fears that a chaotic Iraq left in our wake may destabilize the entire region may be well founded, but doesn't the hard evidence of the last few months point to the reality that our continued occupation is far more certain to destablize Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and all the rest? Fears that our withdrawal from Iraq somewhow will make Sharon's Israel more vulnerable are pure sophistry. Has our occupation of Iraq made Israel more secure?
If one day there is to be a cataclysmic disaster in Israel, it will not be because the U.S. ended its occupation in Iraq. It will be at least in part because we have inflamed and destabilized the region. As even Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged in his CYA memo "leaked" to the press, isn't it likely that by our very presence in Iraq we are giving birth to more terrorists than we are killing or capturing?
Breaking countries is not like breaking your favorite coffee cup. Colin Powell's view to the contrary, it is not like the "potterey barn" rule, either. When it comes to home life and flea markets, peace and stability is far more likely to prevail if you pick up your own mess. But when it comes to international relations, it's better to leave the "cleaning up" to the ones who have to live with the consequences. Vietnam and most other historical "messes" -- World War II being the principal modern exception -- were better left to the victim than the perpetrator.
Isn't it more likely than not that the same historical truth prevails in Iraq? I rather think the week's developments in Fallujah, where we are now rather desperately looking to turn things over to a Baath Party general and his troops from Saddam's days, point decidedly in that direction.
Here's another historical note we should remember with some humility. In 1781, after British "coalition forces" surrendered to Washington at Yorktown, the Royalists remained convinced that the Colonies could not govern themselves without British help.
"The scarlet-coated British and their Hessian allies in blue and green moved forward, followed by the German mercenaries. As they marched into the field throwing down their arms--- amid the weeping and cursing of defeated soldiers--- the Redcoat bands played 'The World Turned Upside Down.'"
Dire predictions of what would come of a complete withdrawl by British troops from the Colonies are echoed today in Bush Administration predictions of disaster if we withdraw our occupying forces. But we should remember the words of the royalist politician, and eventual Earl of Shelburne who once predicted, "The independence of America would end in the ruin of England."
Shelburne was the British minister who ultimately signed the peace treaty with the infant United States of America.
Posted by larre at April 30, 2004 07:55 AMI like to make one more comment - Nancy Reagan. For however anyone may have felt about her and her husband during the 80s when they were our leaders in this country, one cannot deny the grace Nancy has shown in regards to her husband's legacy and those that wish to further idolize him. By her rejection of the right-wing establishment to build a Ronald Reagan University, in the same manner she rejected the right-wing's proposal to replace FDR with her husband on the dime, it shows a lot about the character behind Nancy in regards to her love for her husband and how she feels others should respect him and his legacy.
Granted there are many places and things in this country that bear the name of Ronald Reagan, but at the same time, even the former first lady can no longer stand by and allow the right to further make an idol out of her husband. That says a lot about the differences between people like Nancy and those on the right. In some ways, I think Nancy is reflecting those old conservative principles, especially in regards to religion. What I mean is that I believe part of her reason (even though I'll let her speak for herself) for her backlash against these projects is because this is 100% idol worship.
The Bible itself states in the Commandments that there will be no other God but God, and no idol be made of anything other than God. Clearly, the right is aiming to make the former President an idol, which is a direct violation of conservative Christian principles. As the right continues their aggressive campaign to rid the world of evil-doers, as well as lie, cheat and steal from the American people and the rest of the world, it's becoming more and more obvious just who are the real Christian conservatives. I can't help but feel that lately Nancy is understanding this in some manner, and while thankful for those that wish to honor her husband's name, she would rather have them focus on the programs and causes that her husband and she have and are enacting.
Posted by Tony at April 30, 2004 08:15 AMBetter to come to God through a prophet of peace and brotherhood than through a military man who preached jihad and killing Jews and Christians who don't submit to your infallible doctrine.
Let's just tweak this a little bit and see if this reminds TP of anyone he might know.
Better to come to God through a prophet of peace and brotherhood than through a pretend military man who despite the objections of the brotherhood preached crusade against many Muslims and their countries resulting in the killing of many who don't submit to your infallible doctrine.
Commander False Prophet and False Peace is certainly not acting on behalf of or through any God.
Posted by emal at April 30, 2004 08:41 AMThank you Larre. I just deleted a very long response I was going to post and decided just to say thank you. For those of us who know of the Vietnam war only through books, its true impact and importance is sometimes lost. Its essential that individuals such as yourself give us a kick and remind us of history's lessons.
What Tony says is all too true. For those of us who do care, we must make it our mission to pass on news and information and to get involved. E-mail is one of the most useful tools available. I send everyone I know important information when I see it. Not everyone will read it, and not everyone will care, but its worth it if just one person becomes more aware.
Posted by Jo at April 30, 2004 09:16 AMGetting thoughtful comments like those from larre, Tony, and Jo are great rewards for me. Getting all of you to share your thoughts is why I blog.
Many deep and heartfelt thanks for making my day.
p
Posted by pessimist at April 30, 2004 09:46 AMBy the way, Tony, when I read that somebody wanted to create Ronald Reagan University, I was all ready to fire off a blog post, and then I thought, "nah, the jokes pretty much write themselves."
Posted by Matt Davis at April 30, 2004 10:22 AMWhy is everyone ignoring the shit storm that the U.N. is in now? Is it because that the major bitch from Liberals is that we need to let the U.N. run the world? I think so. I also believe that the Liberals have just lost their major complaint against Bush for not letting the U.N. take care of Saddam. Oh they were taking care of him alright!! They were sucking his D**K!!
Liberal rebuttal.....
"Well Bush should of had some insight and bribed France & Russia first!"
Posted by RightCoaster at April 30, 2004 10:28 AMWe've been trying to rule the world, RightCoaster, for quite some time now, even more so in the last three years. I guess France, Spain, the UN, and many other nations have already had to deal with two nations in the last 100+ years that wanted to rule the world before and don't want to have to deal with another. Jeez, who could blame them?!
The sad thing is that what we are doing right now is far worse, both now and for potential consequences in the future, than what the UN may or may not have done years ago. Whether or not the UN is guilty of this scandal that IS picking up steam in the press by the way, the bottom line is that our nation and its leaders have an open disdain for the rest of the world because they just don't see the world the way you and Bush and the rest of the neocons see it, and it just drives you crazy. The fact that you cannot defend what has been discussed in this thread, which quite frankly has been about American character and religiousity NOT the UN, and are so eager to change the subject to the UN scandal, is a clear indication that you have no defense for what has been dropped against you and those that share your views.
RightCoaster, you and rest of your kin have had your way with the truth for God knows how long. It's our time now, and rest assured, everyone else that wakes up from this intellectual slumber will see through your hate-filled, change-the-subject rhetoric and realize that it isn't even worth the pixels needed to print it on our computer screens.
Posted by Tony at April 30, 2004 10:45 AMRC...
Nope, won't take the bait.
It is comments like these that further divide us. Is it so hard for you to discuss an argument on the merit of its points? You like so many like you, cannot refute the logic so you revert to name calling and pettiness. You show your immaturity and you silliness.
To quote another blog, "be thoughtful or begone..."
Posted by anthony at April 30, 2004 10:50 AMI hear some hate in your tone Tony. I thought you wanted to drop the hate?
We've been trying to rule the world, RightCoaster, for quite some time now, even more so in the last three years.
hmmm. Can you name all the nations that we have concurred for our world domination? Or are we just getting started?
Jeez, who could blame them?!
The rest of the sane world could blame them you idiot. Except Saddam lovers like you!!
It's our time now
Who's this? The slim minority of wacko's that believe the U.S. is an evil empire trying to take over the world. I'm picturing you sitting at your computer now rapped in tinfoil waiting for the world to end. Am I close? There is a reason people with views like you are considered wacko's. Your views on how the world should be are totally unrealistic. We can't all get along!!! It's impossible!!!! So get over it!!!!
Let's face it, your true colors are clear here.
You would rather bash the USA for there politics and forgive the U.N. for illegal actions because you hate this Country!
You must be French.
Merci! Merci beaucoup!
Posted by Tony at April 30, 2004 11:15 AMTo all the tin-foil wackos out there, CHEERS! We're in pretty good company.
Posted by Jo at April 30, 2004 11:25 AManthony,
No baiting intended. It was a legitimate question that I bring up. I'm sorry it hurts your political views but to bad. I enjoy responding to all your Bush bashing all day. This would be a boring website if everyone agreed with one another.
Posted by RightCoaster at April 30, 2004 11:35 AMJohn B., I was referring to Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammad. I have to say that I'm a little bit worried that someone could be so ignorant as to misunderstand that.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 30, 2004 11:39 AMYour welcome
Posted by RightCoaster at April 30, 2004 11:41 AMactually my jewish ancestors were doing fine in spain until the christians took over. fortunately the ottomans took us in.
Posted by flatulus at April 30, 2004 01:33 PMyou must be french
you mean a citizen of our oldest ally? remember, if it weren't for the french army's help in the revolutionary war, we'd all be speaking english now.
and of course there are french soldiers in afghanistan, but as an american i am sworn to forget all history earlier than Operation Iraqi Liberation.
Oops, time for two minutes' hate. gotta go.
Posted by flatulus at April 30, 2004 01:40 PMToby-
I know who Jesus of Nazareth is and I also know of Mohhamad, although not as much.
I misunderstood your post, that's all. You seemed to be implying that the American president was a man of peace and believer in Christian principles.
I don't think you responded to what Mary first said when this thread was started about Bush and his faith and deeds.
You can believe what you want to believe.
I really don't care.
Sorry to have been jerky to you, John B. And you're right: I didn't really respond to Mary, so I will now:
Thanks to Larre's posting last night about tonight's Frontline's The Jesus Factor, I actually found time to watch it. And I found it very chilling.
That narrator can make a napping baby "very chilling."
Bush is definitely appealing to the fundamentalists
He also appeals to traditional Catholics and Jews, as well as atheists like me. So is the problem a matter of degrees or of religion itself or what?
and as the program said, it is faulty theology for him to believe that God is on his side and supports his warmongering.
American leaders have been using God's name to justify what they do for almost 400 years. It gives the people comfort. You should be worried when one of them comes out and starts wearing a sun disk of his forehead and calls himself Akhenaton.
Nothing in the Bible justifies his empire building nor his belief that he can distinguish good from evil (and he, of course, is good and anyone against him is evil).
I'm sure it makes Bush more contemptible to you and your type to believe that he's some sort of frustrated Christain theocrat, but he's really just a guy who has done what our leaders have always done, which is to reaffirm his faith in the God of Christianity. But, Mary, you only have the freedom of religion (or, lack thereof); not the freedom from it. At the point where you believe you have some right to live in a society completely devoid of religious belief, then you are nowhere.
Or does he really believe that God talks to him only?
That's silly and untrue. Where does that get said?
Nothing in the bible says that America is the exception to all other countries and societies in the world and totally GOOD.
Well, considering the fact that the Bible was basically finished some 1,300 years before the colonization of North America, that's no shock. But people continue to read into Scripture what they will and derive power from it. Your Mohammedan friends certainly do that with their Koran.
In fact, many points in the bible warned of people not seeing their own faults when pointing out the faults (evil) of the other.
Why are using the Bible to justify your moral relativism?
And nothing Jesus did or said could ever be implied to be supporting Bush's violent and absolutist actions.
And, yet, somehow, it still happens.
The God that Bush listens to is not the God of this universe (obviously a deity capable of infinite complexity and subtlety), but is rather a false god of the warmongers and other lovers of death.
Oh, boy...Who says that old time religion doesn't infect even its enemies?
How else to describe those who love war more than peace and believe that military force will solve the problems of the world.
Mary, if you'll really be honest about it, the only thing that ever changed the world, besides the loftiest uses men have made of their minds, is the willingness to kill and destroy people and societies until they are rebuilt again. The inability to see the good that the death of certain people can bring is infantile naivete.
(Boy, the rush some get from the killing of their enemies and the humiliating of their women and children. Such a show of manliness.)
Are you referring to jihadist Islam? The prick bastards at Fallujah?
The future of our country and our world is seriously at risk because we have such a delusional and unethical person in charge of our country.
Case not proven. Try again.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 30, 2004 02:41 PMMary, if you'll really be honest about it, the only thing that ever changed the world, besides the loftiest uses men have made of their minds, is the willingness to kill and destroy people and societies until they are rebuilt again. The inability to see the good that the death of certain people can bring is infantile naivete.
No, I don't accept this. Human beings have created something much more valuable than that.
People have come together to set their highest expectations and their dreams to create humane and just societies. Our ancestors, although flawed human beings, created a vision of a nation that is proven to be incredibly compelling - a nation based on the ideal of democracy, where citizens are empowered to control their own government and one where people from other cultures and other religions can pledge allegence to and become part of this nation based on its ideas and not on their culture or creed.
We also have the example of peaceful non-violent resistence which has toppled the racist government in South Africa, overthrew the Soviet Union without violence, and created an American society where African-American citizens are valued and known to be valuable members of our national community, and recognizing the value of all the other creative and hardworking people who come here to pursue the American dream.
George Bush's war will never have the power or potential to inspire humans in the ways that the ideas of the true visionaries do. They show us better ways to live our lives and show us it is possible to have lives that have value and worth for others, as well as ourselves. Truly Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and other great leaders have brought greater value to the world than all the conquerors or warriors combined. True vision for humanity looks to find ways to make everyone part of a better world, to reflect what is possible, and not to accept that which destroys and diminishes humans. I believe our role and our best goal is to find ways to inspire others to want to be part of the creators and visionaries. Those people are true heroes and brave beyond belief. I would rather stand with them and refuse to believe that war and death is a valid way for humans to solve their problems.
Posted by Mary at April 30, 2004 04:00 PMShorter Toby responses to Mary (and most every other sane, non-Bushco supporter here). Guess I was being redundant.
- You are always wrong about everything and I am always right about everything so don't even bother writing anything anymore.
or
-Make War not Peace like Bushco supports. Death and destruction are good for societies, well all societies that is except Judeo-Christian based societies (even though I am a non-believer).
or
-That's just silly, Try again.
TP does this all the time. He picks on an individual's posts or comments and uses and same tactics and responses ad nauseum. He belittles everyone who doesn't agree with them. He certainly is entitled to his opinion, but he probably doesn't sway anyone into agreeing with him because his technique is so terrible. His act is growing old.
Posted by emal at April 30, 2004 04:39 PMAmerican leaders have been using God's name to justify what they do for almost 400 years. It gives the people comfort. You should be worried when one of them comes out and starts wearing a sun disk of his forehead and calls himself Akhenaton.
No, we should be worried now.
But people continue to read into Scripture what they will and derive power from it. Your Mohammedan friends certainly do that with their Koran.
Yes, but they don't call themselves "Mohammedans," because Mohammed was merely a prophet, not a deity.
Why are using the Bible to justify your moral relativism?
She was using the Bible to discredit the moral absolutism of others.
The inability to see the good that the death of certain people can bring is infantile naivete.
The belief that one has the wisdom to determine which people's death will bring good is even worse.
Toby, your interstitials are not worthy of the term "Fisk." Go home. If you're home, go to your room. If you're there, go to bed without any dinner.
Posted by at April 30, 2004 04:57 PMMary, sweetheart, please ignore that poltroon Toady Pesthole. It's strictly a matter of pearls before swine.
Posted by jlb at April 30, 2004 05:42 PMConservative Opposition to Liberal Progress
by Frank Wallis
Take a look at the liberal progressive measures in western civilization over the past two hundred years which have been opposed and resisted by conservatives, sometimes with force of arms and violence:
· abolition of slavery
· abolition of child labor
· trades unions and labor unions
· fair labor standards and practices
· employee safety on the job
· abolition of established state religion
· abolition of the special privileges of the priesthood
· freedom from religious tests for public office
· voting rights for women
· voting rights for persons of African ancestry
· voting rights for adults who don't own real estate
· minimum wage
· social security
· Medicare
· Medicaid
· universal health insurance
· equal rights for women
· right of women to obtain a divorce
· right of women to own and inherit property
· right of women to gain custody of children
· a woman's right to control her own body
· military service for women
· military service for homosexuals
· right of consensual sex among adults
· right to buy, sell, and use birth control
· every law protecting clean air, water, soil, and food
· regulation of the cancer causing tobacco industry
· government health inspection of meat and poultry
· right of citizens to sue for damages against corporations and the government
· automobile safety, e.g., seat belts, air bags, non-exploding gas tanks, etc.
· prohibition of cartels, monopolies, and industry trusts
· regulation of banking, insurance, and investing to protect consumers
· balanced federal government budgets
· freedom to buy, rent, or lease housing in the neighborhood of one's choice
· the right of habeas corpus (suspended in 2001 with the USA Patriot Act)
· connecting human rights with foreign policy
I challenge anyone to review this list, which is probably not complete, and disagree that this conservative record of opposition to liberal progress is both abysmal and an affront to humanity.
__________________
www.powerskeptic.net/list.htm
Posted by Frank Wallis at April 30, 2004 06:44 PMMary, if you'll really be honest about it, the only thing that ever changed the world, besides the loftiest uses men have made of their minds, is the willingness to kill and destroy people and societies until they are rebuilt again. The inability to see the good that the death of certain people can bring is infantile naivete.
No, I don't accept this. Human beings have created something much more valuable than that.
Yes, once the bad elements are burned away. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had to be trampled into the dust before they could be rebuilt. How can you deny that those societies were evil and had to be materially destroyed before they could realize peace?
People have come together to set their highest expectations and their dreams to create humane and just societies.
Fine. But they have to kill for it first. Don't be so pie-in-the-sky.
Our ancestors, although flawed human beings, created a vision of a nation that is proven to be incredibly compelling
But that vision had to evolve through a lot of other stuff that we now hold to be abhorrent: human slavery, indentured servitude, compulsory church attendance, public floggings, debt prisons, etc. The list is LONG. And it all had to be fought over before we could get to where we are now.
- a nation based on the ideal of democracy, where citizens are empowered to control their own government and one where people from other cultures and other religions can pledge allegence to and become part of this nation based on its ideas and not on their culture or creed.
Yes, this is a pluralistic society, but much of our genius is derived from Protestant ethics and the subsuming power of the English language. But now things are starting to really run amok. See, if you want, my recent thoughts on this.
We also have the example of peaceful non-violent resistence which has toppled the racist government in South Africa,
And replaced it with an equally racist black government. But I won't quibble with you on that: one of my favorite memories from watching the world change when I was in my 20s were the long lines of elderly black people wrapped around polling stations in Johannesburg. It was a humbling sight.
overthrew the Soviet Union without violence,
Well, there had been such incredible violence in establishing it that they thought they'd try somethihng different. But even that's not entirely true. The troubles in the former Soviet republics and Muslim-dominated regions of Russia have been extraordinarily bloody.
and created an American society where African-American citizens are valued and known to be valuable members of our national community,
Yuck. "African-American"? Don't be such a whitebread, Mary.
and recognizing the value of all the other creative and hardworking people who come here to pursue the American dream.
I'm all in favor of American Dreams and such, but let's not kid ourselves that America is an "idea" more than an actual nation. That disserves the sacrifices that actual human beings made in defending their communities against the depredations of savages and interlopers.
George Bush's war will never have the power or potential to inspire humans in the ways that the ideas of the true visionaries do.
These Iraqis don't have to love the war; they just have to earn the peace.
They show us better ways to live our lives and show us it is possible to have lives that have value and worth for others, as well as ourselves.
Would you count Lincoln among that number? FDR? Do you know how hated Harriet Beecher Stowe and Margaret Sanger were in their days?
Truly Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and other great leaders have brought greater value to the world than all the conquerors or warriors combined.
But Mohammad was a conqueror! And Christians (and even Buddhists) have fought like madmen for millennia to establish themselves, regardless of what Jesus of Nazareth or Siddhartha practiced or preached.
True vision for humanity looks to find ways to make everyone part of a better world, to reflect what is possible, and not to accept that which destroys and diminishes humans.
Some people cannot be redeemed. They are here to die so that others might live in peace that they have earned against the irredeemable.
I believe our role and our best goal is to find ways to inspire others to want to be part of the creators and visionaries.
This will be accomplished through cable TV and reliable refrigeration.
Those people are true heroes and brave beyond belief. I would rather stand with them and refuse to believe that war and death is a valid way for humans to solve their problems.
Sounds good to me, Mary. Just be sure to listen carefully when they tell you what they had to do to give you the liberty to think that way.
Posted by Toby Petzold at April 30, 2004 07:01 PMDorothy, replay this for Bush ... (just his own words, no, like graphic pictures or anything rude)
We've Discovered Torture Chambers ...
And then ask when the regime change will happen.
Posted by undelay at April 30, 2004 07:03 PM