Looks like a pretty good conspiracy theory you've got there like something that you'd see on the X-Files. Send in Mulder & Scully.
Actually what you've got here is alot of Bush haters in and out of CBS who're grasping at straws. There just has to be something out there who can take out that Bush guy.
Burkett and Max Cleland are just some of the latest to be outed as Bush haters.
Funny when Clinton was in office the media would dismiss any criticism of him by others by labeling them "Clinton Haters" and not giving them any credence. Now being a member of "Bush Haters of the World" makes you a valuable and trusted source.

Taking down Dan Rather will be a pretty tall order. When the White House vetts the documents that's all you need to run the story.

"Why did Scott vett the documents," should be the mantra of the day.

Anyone remember the guys name that Dubya had the affair with?

Orwell, er, Roger,

when Clinton was in office the media would dismiss any criticism of him by others by labeling them "Clinton Haters" and not giving them any credence.

whitewater "scandal," anyone? (via the liberal new york times, of course) "wag the dog" ring any bells? no? bueller?

Mary: I've been reading for days on the subject, and till reading your excellent post, have resissted the seductive theory of a Rovian trick.

But you wrapped it for me. Saddest thing is he'll triumph - no way will this ever gain traction as truth. Dan Rather will pay the price.

At this point I sitll have no firm idea what to believe.

Whatever happens I will find it very difficult to muster any sympathy for CBS news. Very.

[shrugs] I'm just antsy, waiting for 11/2. I find it hard to get excited about this.

Scott McClellan:
We had every reason to believe that they were authentic at that time.

With this statement, the Whitehouse verified that Bush refused to obey a direct order (to take his physical). It's about character.

I tend to give Rove more credit for being a skilled political operative than most of those who post in the blogosphere, but disagree that his MO includes planting information that is damaging to GWB to facilitate "shooting the messenger." Rove is highly skilled at "shooting the messenger as we saw with O'Neill and Clarke and will do it to Kelly and her reported source Sharon Bush. He is also very good at finding weak points in a report or a messenger and using that to discredit both, as well as looking for unexpected opportunities in stories that spin out of control (his appropriation of the Lott affair was really masterful - he limited the charge of racism to one Senator that the GOP acted to remove from his position of power, then put Lott in their hip pocket because they let him keep his seat, and finally they have their puppet running the Senate -- I don't think for one moment that Rove pushed Lott's racist remarks into the blogosphere but he sure figured out how to manage it to his advantage once it did get out there. And the bloggers demonstrated their political naivety by questioning why DEM Senators were reluctant to join in taking down Lott; they knew that Lott was easier for them to deal with than a lackey controlled by the WH.)

Rove also knows that the more frequently a story about anyone's past surfaces, the greater the likelihood that 1) more people will start to believe that there is something to it 2) someone else with first hand knowledge may step forward to support the story and the more messengers there are, the harder it is to take them all out. Rove had plenty of time to spot the weakness in CBS' use of photocopies, but his use of an anonymous blogger to lead the charge suggests to me that he was grasping at straws and not executing a deviously clever plot to destroy Dan Rather.

Had he planted these with CBS he would have known that they were forgeries and that CBS had no other writen documentation, in that case he would not have needed some anonymous blogger to lead the attack or if he decided to go that route, the WH would have stepped in and joined it more quickly. Rove also doesn't wait for someone to air a story before he goes on the offensive -- too many older peole watch 60 Minutes and never look at the internet or cable news hashing over a story - he begins the PR against messengers before they get a large audience. No, Rove seemed to be more reacting to than directing the initial CBS story.

If he was the source for the GWB drug claims in Unfortunate Son (I'm still skeptical about this), it was because he already knew that the author was easy to discredit and such a weak investigator that he would run with a single source report. Still a high wire act for Rove because he couldn't be sure that he was a single source. Rove only plays his tricks when the potential outcomes are limited to a win for GWB or no impact on GWB. He doesn't play when he has little control of the outcome or there is potentially a huge downside. Rove is not like GWB; Rove's risk taking is much more measured and well calculated.

why does not Rather show the 2 dan bartlett interviews ... 1st one saying the docs are authentica, the 2nd one challenging them (i think there is one such interview).

Karl Rove has no need to be the potent boogieman of all the lefty koolaid drinkers, they selected John Kerry for that. Rove didn't make Kerry waffle on every issue of import in the last 35 years, it come natural. Also and perhaps more damming is the lack of real accomplishment in Kerry's resume. Seems to me a leader would have felt strongly enough about something to write serious legislation. The Kerry we have all observerd failled to lead the Senate in any meaningful way. Even Teddy gets associated with Healthcare and Education. Kerry's claim to fame is wealthy women.

"...perhaps more damming is the lack of real accomplishment in Kerry's resume."
Weak argument NH...Have you seen GW's résumé? The man didn't have a job until he was 40.
I still think we are all rooting around in the wrong cellar.
Look at what you have today and do you want this or worse for the next four years. Get this man out of power before the direction of this country is permanently damaged. As for the conspiracy theory...the Rove methodology is as old as Watergate. Rather will survive this and any other approach to breach his credibility. In my eyes, since he had little to begin with, GW must not.

CBS had Dan Barlett on tape confirming the docs were in fact true. Will CBS release the tapes ? Will see. Rather is near retirement so he does not have anything to lose.

The Grand Deception:
'Kerry, War Hero,' Is a Myth

[Embedded post truncated. Please supply a link.]

Mr Rove doesn't need to "set up" CBS. That is a bad risk. Especially when one considers that the Kerry machine manages to step on itself without any assisrance from us Republicans.

Folk, both gentlemen competing, for the most part, are good people. Please don't lose sight of that. We can throw words around and disagree on a lot of things but our country is not going to end on Nov 3rd no matter which person wins.

The left has wackos and the right does also, in between are mostly good people with mixed feeling.

Continue to rant about all the terrible things because that is part of this process and hopefully it will bring out more voters.

I for my part, got some voter regristration cards and passed them out, without regard to political party. I'd rather they be republican leaning but more importantly I wish they vote for somebody.

Having said that, Bush in 04 and life is good.

Hmm
If the trolls are posting op-eds by Hoffman, things must be much, much worse for Jr.

BTW, Hoffman has changed his story several times.

1. Kerry at least went to Vietnam unlike most people now in high office.
2. Hoffman seems to have an axe to grind w/ Kerry.
3. So what? Most of our leaders are mythologized to the point were you can’t tell where the truth ends and the bullshit begins. There are very few real heroes in the world(that’s what makes them special). It is irrelevant whether Kerry’s record in ‘NAM is as good as he says, or more closely resembles the crap that the Swifties spout (can’t tell who I believe J ). That war has been over for almost 30 years.

The suggestion that this is some sort of White house dirty trick stretches the limits of believability. It depends on too heavily on the behavior of other people, it is simply too complicated to predict what all the various parties might do. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the white house might have gotten wind of these memos prior to release and prepared some sort of response.

steve, can that 12-million-word hoffman reprint be deleted? it's stinkin up the joint and no one's gonna read it anyway. thanks.

What the public needs to see is a good in-depth investigative report on Rove. That's what CBS needs to do, not get rid of Rather.

Do the trolls not know what links are? and they're so proud of themselves, they dont even care to write in their name, or at least a fake name.

Going on the whole,"Kerry at least served, Bush didnt" This is from dkos. It's a list of GOP Senators criticizing the war and look what they got in common:

Sen. John McCain - served U.S. Navy, Vietnam Vet
Sen Chuck Hagel - served U.S. Army, Vietnam Vet
Sen. Dick Lugar - served U.S. Navy
Sen. Lindsey Graham, served U.S. Air Force, active duty stateside during Gulf War I

Now here is the service record of Cheney, Ashcroft, and Rove:

hmm

HERE is the the service record of Cheney, Ashcroft, and Rove:

Deferment, Deferment, Deferment

"1. Kerry at least went to Vietnam unlike most people now in high office.
2. Hoffman seems to have an axe to grind w/ Kerry.
3. So what? Most of our leaders are mythologized to the point were you can’t tell where the truth ends and the bullshit begins. There are very few real heroes in the world(that’s what makes them special). It is irrelevant whether Kerry’s record in ‘NAM is as good as he says, or more closely resembles the crap that the Swifties spout (can’t tell who I believe J ). That war has been over for almost 30 years."

Amen Terence. Unfortunately for some of us...that war will never be over.

It's amazing how dodging that when Bill Clinton DODGED the Draft it wasn';t a big deal

Now the inconsistent democrats have all their hopes on a disloyal soldier who betrayed his troops when he returned from Vietnem.

Kerry loses by landslide.

Lugar, who is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, said "the incompetence in the administration" led to only $1 billion spent out of $18 billion appropriated last year for reconstruction efforts.
Remember trolls the 87 billion dollars DID PASS. Guess Cheney would rather support his wallet than our troops.

Dan Rather gets to play the role of Ralph Nader in this election remake. He's given the election to Bush.

Thanks God!

Dan Rather gets to play the role of Ralph Nader in this election remake. He's given the election to Bush.

Thanks God!

You forgot to mention Rove's first run as a campaign manager, when he bugged his own office and blamed it on the opponent.

Or who can forget the George Bush debate tape that was mailed to Al Gore in 2000. Don't you think that was a set up?

Thank you.

This was the funniest article I've read in a long time.

So, by the way, you admit the memos are forged?

Thanks for the chuckles.

Your theory is an absolute perversion, Mary. But take comfort in knowing that you aren't alone in your beliefs.

hatcher, umm, keep believing that. It's funny how Bush supporters cant every focus on their candidate. First it was supposed to be the MA court decision on gay marriage that gave Bush the election, then I think Reagan's death, then the great econ recovery, then I think Sandy Burgular. Why cant you focus on Bush and his proposals? Oh, ha, yeah, never mind. Keep on believing.

You see, dirty tricks is all they have, and all they've ever had, all the way back to Nixon. That's why they have Nixon vets Cheney and Rumsfeld in the fold, to show how its done. Again, for the millionth time.....THEY OWN THE MEDIA. otherwise none of this would be working..
It may be time to shut some of this down........

Gee, the dems are working on keeping the past on the front burner. Please continue, it only helps us to re-elect Pres Bush; for me that is a good thing.

The republican party is not pushing this issue, we've pretty much got past it and are looking forward. I'll say again if the dems don't stop the finger pointing and start focusing on a message then you lose.

Whining doesn't win elections. Great organization, bringing out the base, stay on message and let Sen Kerry shot himself in the foot seems to be working well for us.

Bush in 04.

"Shooting himself in the foot"

isn't that how Kerry got one of his medals in Vietnam

There is more than the memos against Bush. Bush was AWOL, addicted, and out of control. Freeper news sources are now exposed. Bush has been caught lying about the "progress" in Iraq. Team Kerry will make him pay. The wind is shifting against Bush. Bush's cocoon of spin is not maintainable.

There is more than the memos against Bush. Bush was AWOL, addicted, and out of control. Freeper news sources are now exposed. Bush has been caught lying about the "progress" in Iraq. Team Kerry will make him pay. The wind is shifting against Bush. Bush's cocoon of spin is not maintainable.

Patience,

what color is the sky in your world?????

If the best the dems can use now is freepers and news sources have exposed Pres Bush then is a sad party.

May I recommend that you dems try a new record/cd/dvd, the one you are still using is getting worn. I only gives you the opportunity to gain the support of the left wing side of your party and you should already have that.

Please do better and remember the popular vote is not what counts, it's the electoral college. Solidify your 2000 Gore states. Sen Kerry is starting to lose them and turn them into battleground states. You can't win like that.

Sen Kerry is suppose to was his charm, intelligence and show his leadership. Oh, where is Sen Edwards? I thought there were 2 gentlemen on the dem ticket.

Bush Continues To Hold Slim Lead Over Kerry (46%-43%); President Widens the Gap In the War on Terrorism (75%-19%)- While Kerry Leads On Other Top Issues, New Zogby America Poll Reveals

With just 44 days to go before voters cast their ballots, President George W. Bush continues to hold a slim lead over Senator John Kerry (46%-43%), according to a new Zogby America poll. The telephone poll of 1066 likely voters was conducted from Friday through Sunday (September 17-19, 2004). Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.1%.

Presidential Candidates %
Sept 17-Sept19
Sept8-Sept9
Aug30-Sept2

Republican - George W. Bush
46
46
46

Democrat - John Kerry
43
42
44

Independent - Ralph Nader
1.4
2.4
3

Libertarian - Michael Badnarik
1.2
.9
.3

Constitution - Michael Peroutka
.1
.3
-

Green - David Cobb
-
-
-

Other
.9
.6
.6

Undecided
7
8
7

Help! Help! Angry republicans, oh well. Take comfort in the fact that your guy might actually win this time.

I give that you dems have a sense of humor.

I'm not seeing many "angry republicans" but when we use reasonable conversation and the same polls you all love so well then we're arngry?

We're not the ones saying there is a conspirocy, nor are we big fans of the main stream media. neither are we saying it will be the end of the world.

We even try and give suggestions that may help Sen Kerry. We may as well, he'll listen to most anyone and still manage to get off his own message. Hmmm, sorry, I'm still not sure what his message is yet.

ABBs aren't going to be enough to defeat Pres Bush, please have Sen Kerry say what he can do better. Saying he can do better but not telling anybody how just is not going to do it.

There is not crying in baseball and no whining in politics. The objective is to win. The democratic and republican party HQs know that. If the republican party does it better then the dems get until 2008 to get organized because, so far, it looks like Bush in 2004, again.

boycott cbs!?!?

Alright maybe this is getting a little out of hand?
Maybe just take him out back and smack him around?

Seems Kerry has taken a slight lead in the polls!

BTW: Who was that guy Bush had a gay affair with in the 70's? I can't remember the name. Was it in the Kitty Kelly book?

Don't tell me that none of you remember the Iran-Contra contention...which is a little closer to today's direct political and global influences brought to you by the Bush family of leadership. To heck with Vietnam, cocaine, gay lovers...let's please put this regime to bed so no more of our military(which should be tighting the ring around our own harbors)is put to death with the very weapons we supplied.
This is not about past indiscretions and misdeeds. This is about an administration that can not be trusted today because of its contradictory record on all of the issues, including and especially the conflict we are now involved in and those that are certain to come with four more years.
Isn't it lovely that Iran made the US news with evidence of nuclear resource and the UN wants inspectors to investigate...now, where have I heard this before?
Does anyone else see a pattern here or have I just been alive too long.

As Michael Moore once said, "I don't believe in conspiracy theories unless they're true."

xymphora has had an incisive analysis of the Rove connection. Good that it's reinforced by Slater.

It's time for Rather and CBS to go for broke.

Here's an idea that would be a ratings bonanza. Set it up in a people's court type setting. On one side are representatives for the official 911 version of events surrounding the tragedy and on the other side, critics of same. Present the government's evidence indicting radical Islamic terrorists and explanations for our governments response to it. Then subject this evidence to cross examination. Next the alternative explanation of events side will present their evidence and it would be subjected to cross examination as well.

The viewing audience would be the jury. Call a 800 number to voice your judgement. It would be nice to examine openly all the evidence available. It could be a real commercial winner for CBS.

I came across your blog looking for "Rove"+"Rather" links. I gotta tell you -- I'm a Texan, from Austin -- and when W. was governor here and they decided that he was ready to make his play, headed to Washington, Rove was already widely known (here in Texas and especially here in Austin) for what he is: a complete cynical plotter who prides himself on out Machiavelli-ing Machiavelli. You know that old joke about not having to be paranoid if someone's actually out to get you? Well, you don't have to be a conspiracy-theory nut when actual conspiracies are being deliberately spun all around. Rove is a complete master at perpetrating conspiracies that can't be proven to start with him. The guy who said that you gotta look at the M.O. is definitely on the right track. You guys got the Fortunate Son incident connection already (go see the documentary -- it was really good!); but there were so any others.

Rove actually takes a lot of risks -- and I hoped against hope that THIS time, they'd catch him at it. Specifically, it would be Carl Rove's typical M.O. to take the REAL memos, forge copies that have obvious "forgery" clues that are easy to spot; make sure to get the copies to a sap like Burkett, who has wanted for years to expose what he knows is true about Bush's time during the National Guard; and then for Rove to have his pet Republican bloggers ready to go to make sure the story breaks and that the "forgeries" are "exposed." By the way, Burkett and Rather actually have known each other for years -- which is why Rather trusted his "unimpeachable" source. But Burkett even says he told him to check the authenticity of the documents! Oy. Rove must be laughing his ass off.

Anyway, besides praying that there is something to karma (Lee Atwater, after all, definitely got his come-uppance and repented his evil ways before he died), and that even "Crafty Carl" will eventually trip up, I agree with those previous posts that say that we need to get on with the campaign and deal with all the hideous things that the Bush II administration has done (e.g., an unjustifiable pre-emptive war, disasterous deficits, development and planned use of "tactical" nukes on the battlefield (breaking every non-nuke treaty the US has ever signed, of course), the incarceration and even hiding of foreign nationals in order to avoid oversight by the international Red Cross, etc. etc. etc.) -- and that they PLAN to do. God help us all -- because (since I'm going all out and admitting my deepest fears) I'm terrified that if it looks like the Dems could win the election, there will be a terrorist attack or threat of same and Tom Ridge will declare martial law and suspend the election -- or, if Kerry wins, there will be an attack or threat just before the inauguration and they'll declare that the state of emergency means they don't have to swear Kerry in. Or, I'm afraid that the Bushies will just flat out steal the vote through electronic voting machines, etc. Sorry. I actually HOPE I'm just being totally paranoid -- because otherwise I have to believe that the Bushies are actually out there, led by Rove, conspiring to do something dreadful to stay in power!

How plausible is this? Karl Rove finds out about the yellowcake story from one of his moles at CBS. And he knows the story is based on solid evidence, and he knows it's going to bury Bush. So he finds someone to feed Dan Rather some "new evidence" on an old story that Rather's been working on for a long time. Except that the "new evidence"--the only thing that justifies running the story in the first place--is based entirely upon forged documents. But for some bizarre reason, someone at CBS decides that the yellowcake story needs to get bumped so they can run this ridiculous piece of fluff about Bush's Guard service--an issue no one really cares about in the first place because it's thirty years old and everyone's already heard it a million times. And immediately, everyone assumes that Dan Rather is out to get George Bush. Which he is, but he's just the chump in the whole deal. The truth is, someone is out to destroy CBS's credibility because they know that sooner or later, CBS will run the yellowcake story. And destroying Dan Rather--a guy who has caused them endless trouble and embarrassment in the past--is just the icing on the cake.

Oh, so CBS was swindled and is now too stupid/inept to perform the investigation to discover this "truth" _you_ discovered. Thank God Dan is a Dem supporter! If he were a supporter of the President he might actually have done some damage!

I strongly believe the Rove theory -- otherwise, the whole CBS memo story makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's another curious piece to the puzzle -- on Sept. 23, before any mainstream coverage of the Karl Rove/CBS Memo theory, Rove goes on the front page of the Washington Times, the Republican Pravda, to deny the charges. Why deny charges that have barely been reported? Just like the bogus memos, it's a way to inoculate the Bush side against the real truth coming to light. See: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040923-122052-9637r.htm

It's always easier to come up with conspiracy theories than to look at the obvious. "Rove did it!". "It's a right wing conspiracy!".

The facts of the matter are thus. Bill Burkett was bragging on the Online Journal on August 25th that "I know from your files that we have now reassembled". Reassembled? I suppose typing up phoney documents in Microsoft Word could be termed "reassembled".

Bill Burkett supplied the phoney documents to CBS. Bill Burkett gave two different names as the source of the documents. A Mr. Conn and a lady named Ramirez. Neither of which has proven to even be a real person.

Bill Burkett was in the Army National Guard. The wording in the phoney documents was Army, not Air National Guard. (Bush served in the Air National Guard). One example is the use of the term "billets". The forged documents use that term. It's an Army National Guard term. The Air National Guard uses the term "spots" instead.

His biggest mistake was allowing his hatred of Bush to cloud his thinking while "reasasembling the files". He should have used a typewriter from the early 70's!

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. It's a duck.

The most likely writer of the forged documents IS Bill Burkett himself.