i think that the best idea presented was to hijack the word "Conservative" and start applying it to the terrorists.

so, we need to start talking about the ultra-conservative muslims instead of radical or fanatical muslims.

what a great concept.

-ub

I'm sure enough of us here have done Marketing 101 to be familiar with the expression "sell the sizzle, not the steak". That's what you're advocating, and it's what the Republicans have mastered.

There are two ways of countering.

One is to forget all about the steak, just get better at marketing.

The other is to point out that regardless of sizzle, the Republicans are selling turd sandwiches, not steak.

I'm sure enough of us here have done Marketing 101 to be familiar with the expression "sell the sizzle, not the steak". That's what you're advocating, and it's what the Republicans have mastered.

There are two ways of countering.

One is to forget all about the steak, just get better at marketing.

The other is to point out that regardless of sizzle, the Republicans are selling turd sandwiches, not steak.

Sorry about the double post above.

Another thing that comes to mind is that your statement: "Given a choice, I'd rather see the English language ruined than a liberal agenda " is actually an abandonment of the cause. We in the reality based community really don't want to get into dialectical materialism. It's a useful tool in the totalitarian handbook, but moderates should reject it out of hand.

This is on target and well worth spreading around. I think it goes off course on "conservative." Just how believable is it that the enemy is conservative muslims? This is not a term that has been used, and cannot easily be hijacked. What has been used, and what fits perfectly, is fundamentalist Muslims.

We can also reframe the conversation by using language that really is as inclusive as our beliefs. For example by resurrecting the language of social responsiblity we can say that WE as a country are all responsible for the results in Iraq. WE elected George Bush [we the people of the US] We are responsible for the environmental degradation and for the scourges of poverty. Where we have succeeded in building country 'with liberty and justics for all' then WE ALL have succeeded. And insofar as we have failed then we all have failed. So W is our president since WE elected him. And we all share responsibility to the consequences of that.

NOW given that as a context there is still a conversation on what steps to take next in each arena. For example we have got ourselves in quite a mess in Iraq. Things haven't turned out as we expected. There were no WMD. There's strong opposition to our being there. There are many more problems with the infrastructure. And there are a number of ways to go, choices to make, possible strategies and alternatives. None of these give a clear and guaranteed outcome. It is apppriate that there be an ongoing deliberation on the risks and relative merits of different courses of action. WE will have that conversation, all of us. And we will all bear shared responsibility for the consequences. And of course the deliberation wil be ongoing.

By accepting national social responsibility for the actions of the US [each of us with our fair share that is of a social responsibility] we get past the we vs. they thinking.

The same context applies in other arenas. We all are responsible for the environmental consequences of our actions as a a society - our factories and our gas guzzling cars and our efforts at conservation - have resulted in the environmental degradation we see and also in the improvements we have seen in the last thirty year. And we still have ongoing choices to make....

This context will be effective and incredibly powerful because it assumes the power of individual and social responsibility, and choice and decision making and values and consequences. And it defuses the language of blame and exclusion.

We can use Iran as the perfect liberal/conservative metaphor: we have the authoritarian, conservative mullahs working to maintain a Dark Ages-worthy theocracy, while the liberal reformers, such as the student protesters and Khatami, struggle to establish liberal values like tolerance, privacy, and equality. Let's roll.

Actually, I take my comment above back about this being on track. All this talk about memes and messages and values is completely beside the point. Why? Because we don't control the media, and THEY DO. It doesn't matter what nuanced words we use, when they go through the media filter, they will be twisted against us.

So forget about all this Lakoff stuff. It might become relevant once the media isn't controlled by the right wing noise machine. But until then, it is beside the point.

As long as they control the air waves, we will not be able to get out message out. So why worry about the fine points of our message?

The only time Kerry was able to get his message out unfiltered was during the debates--and his poll ratings soared. So what was wrong with his message? Nothing.

What was wrong was that the media war against him went on nonstop after the debates.

What we have to do is take action against the media. How do we do that? I don't know, but figuring that out is much more important than playing with memes.

Today's Headlines

Conservative Muslims Wound 20 U.S. Soldiers in Ramadi

Texas Education Board OK's Conservative Textbooks

21 Killed, More Wounded by Conservative Insurgents in Samarra.

Conservatives Sweep U.S. Senate races

10,000 U.S. Soliders Mass for Assault on Fallujah's Islamic Conservatives

Alan S. -- Your point about the complicity of the media is well taken, but you forget that a chief complaint from the left about media news coverage and commentary is the tendency of our lazy and ignorant press to habitually use "false equivalency" -- the practice of quoting "the other side" for "balance" no matter how outlandish or untrue the statement might be.

How else do you think we have come to the point where "liberal" is a dirty word, though it was "liberal" policy that created in America the broadest, healthiest, wealthiest, best educated middle class in world history?

Not many months ago, I read that one Georgia state politician was accusing his opponent of "not being conservative enough." Two conservatives fighting like cats in a bag, each striving to "out-conservative" the other.

That speaks volumes about the distortion of our politics through manipulation of words. It's ridiculous, of course, but the media treated it as seriously as a Nobel lecture.

Yes, bulk of reporters and commentators are dopes who couldn't tell you in what century we fought the War of 1812. But the other side used that ignorance for their own purposes. We can, too.

Today's Headlines

Fundamentalist Conservative Muslims Wound 20 U.S. Soldiers in Ramadi

Texas Education Board OK's Fundamentalist Conservative Textbooks

21 Killed, More Wounded by Fundamentalist Conservative Insurgents in Samarra.

Fundamentalist Conservatives Sweep U.S. Senate races

10,000 U.S. Soliders Mass for Assault on Fallujah's Islamic Fundamentalist Conservatives

Good Job phidipides, My God, I think he's got it.

One effective meme is the "death tax". I prefer to call it the "Paris Hilton Wealth Tax". I have found using the line "Why should we eliminate a tax that isn't going to affect anyone in this room (unless you are going to participate in a $2 million inheritance) so that Paris Hilton has more walking around money" gets an incredible reaction against the conservative meme - with conservatives no less.

One effective meme is the "death tax". I prefer to call it the "Paris Hilton Wealth Tax". I have found using the line "Why should we eliminate a tax that isn't going to affect anyone in this room (unless you are going to participate in a $2 million inheritance) so that Paris Hilton has more walking around money" gets an incredible reaction against the conservative meme - with conservatives no less.

YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MODERATES AND SWING VOTERS DON'T WANT GAY MARRIAGE ...DO NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD JACKASSES INFLUENCE...DO NOT WANT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION & QUOTAS !!!
WE DON'T WANT ILLEGALS OR EVEN GREEN CARDS TO HAVE GOVT. BENEFITS OR PAY FOR ALL THEIR DAMN SCHOOL COSTS!!!! WE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR OFFSPRING TO GET WHATEVER DUMB DEGREES FROM COLLEGES --FULL OF PILED HIGHER & DEEPER JACKASS PROGRAMS,WHICH ARE FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR JACKASS PROFESSORS ...NOR WE WANT PROPGANDIZED WET BEHIND THE EARS COLLEGE AGE VOTING UNLESS THEY'VE PAID TAXES FOR AT LEAST 8 YEARS OR BEEN IN MILITARY.

YOU JACKASSES LOST IT FOR KERRY-- WITH YOUR BIG TENT FULL OF IDIOTS AND ODDBALLS!!!!!
AND, THERE'S HELL TO PAY FOR WHAT YOU DID TO ALL THOSE WHO LOST THEIR JOBS AND THE EFFECTS ON THOSE PEOPLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU ULTRALIBERAL PAPER PUSHING PROFESSIONALS
& PROGRESSIVE SOCIALISTS LOST IT ... THERE'S HELL TO PAY FOR THE EFFECTS OF WHAT YOU DID TO ALL THOSE WHO LOST THEIR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!

WE DO NOT LIKE MICHAEL MOORE AND HIS FOLLOWERS...WE THOUGHT MICHAEL MOORE'S FILM WAS NO DOCUMENTARY...WE DON'T WANT AN AL FRANKEN TYPE (WHO ADORED PAUL WELLSTONE BASCIALLY SOCIALISTS IDEAS) ON THE RADIO EVERY DAY...OR RANDI RHODES WHO'S A FEMALE ____JUST LIKE THAT MICHAEL SAVAGE...

IN FACT, WE WILL PROBABLY SPLIT OFF FROM YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY ULTRALIBERAL TO PROGRESSIVES ENTIRELY. TO US, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD AS THE RIGHT WINGERS!!!!!!

Be careful with that word "choice". The only choice you lefties seem to really committed to is sexual choices...abortion, same sex rights...which I happen to support.
But you pretentious social engineers who love to demonize the right, are AGAINST CHOICE when it comes to...school choice, health savings accounts, private retirement accounts, hiring (affirmative action), who gets what I earned and saved when I die etc. etc. Otherwise, I found this article and discussion very stimulating. This from an atheist, ex-VP at Benton & Bowles, who is thrilled that all my predictions about Kerry being TOAST came true. Ah, life is good.

This is all well and good, larre, but I'd suggest staying away from "America First". Those with long memories may be reminded of the pre-World War II America First Committee. I, for one, wouldn't want to be in any way associated with isolationist Nazi-sympathizers.

Who you callin' "young"? ;-)

Alex, I'm no liberal. I did a tour of duty in 1972 and would be happy to kick your ignorant ass.

Else, good posts all around.

I think the first thing we need to do is to start challenging the conservatives, who are already forty years into distorting our language to serve their agenda.

Elite can only be used with cultural or liberal. Odd, it seems to me that the idea that people who run corporations are more important than their workers is pretty damn elitist. And more so when the argument is made that they are the only people whose input on policy matters.

Tort reform? That phrase immediately suggests that there is something broken. When democrats talk about tort reform they have already lost. Don't say you don't like the conservative proposal, say that you think that protecting ordinary people from corporate malfeasance is more important than protecting corporations from lawyers. Make it clear that the only acceptable proposals are ones which protect the rights of regular people.

Tax relief? That suggests that there is a burden that needs easing. Bah! start talking about the idea that taxing succesful people is societal investing in the success of the next generation. Talk about the fact that these people were succesful because the previous generation invested in them. Paint the anti-tax rich as the spoiled brats that they are.

People have already mentioned death tax. Maybe we should talk about something like the two-mansion rule. And we need to be using the term 'wealth aristocracy.' Hell, let's start talking about Duke Gates of Microsoft, and Lord Ellison of Oracle. Then we can adopt the tradition of referring to these people by their corporate names. Never say Bill Gates again, just refer to 'Duke of Microsoft,' or just as 'Microsoft.'

Everytime you have a conservative person challenge you on something, start out by asking whether or not you even accept the term they are using.

Texas Education Board OK's Fundamentalist Conservative Textbooks

I like Phidipes' use of fundamentalist, but think that we also need to be using the term extremism.

In my pantheon there are four major forces of extremism all of which are problems the world needs to address:

1) Islam Extremists in the middle east and asia
2) Jewish Extremists in Israel
3) Christian extremists in American
4) Capitalist extremists in America and around the world.

All of the versions of extremism have philosophies which center around manipulating governments to make their philosophy the central idea around which societies are run.

And conservatives, spare me, there are lots of capitalists who are not extremists. I'm no more saying eliminate capitalism than I am saying eliminate Judaism or Christianity. I'm saying rein in the hard-core offenders who think that all that matters is growth and efficiency and damn the cost in social and environmental damage.

Let us look for the words that will speak to the hearts of those recently manipulated into hateful postures.

Is there anyone here who favors promiscuity? If we allow people who have bonded to each other no form of stable household that they can form, what are we doing? Are we not encouraging promiscuity? Are we not saying - you are outlaws! Go engage in your criminal activity in back alleys in the most riotous and offensive forms, as we are determined not to allow you anything resembling a stable life!

Why would we want to undermine our own society?

What commandments do we recognize with regard to our neighbor. What is love?

I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAR FROM WEAK TOO.

I STICK BY WHAT I STATED.

And, CA Democrats (for one group of) are now Dem-socialists.

Told you the reality. I have no desire to be around ultraliberals or progressives--nor Limbaugh followers either.

MODERATES AND SWING VOTERS DON'T WANT GAY MARRIAGE ...DO NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD JACKASSES INFLUENCE...

So what you are yelling is that you don't like gay marriage. What about gay unions granting spousal benefits? Or is it that thinking about two men kissing gives you a little chubby and makes you feel...you know...dirty? Or is it only when you think about the tongue play? You can tell us, we're all friends here.

DO NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD JACKASSES INFLUENCE...

I know what you mean about Reagan and Schwarzenegger.

DO NOT WANT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION & QUOTAS !!!

Me either. That Colin Powell rose too high, in my opinion.

WE DON'T WANT ILLEGALS OR EVEN GREEN CARDS TO HAVE GOVT. BENEFITS OR PAY FOR ALL THEIR DAMN SCHOOL COSTS!!!!

Me either. And that idiot Bush wants to pay them a legal 3.50 an hour to take your minimum wage job. Boy! I bet that plan chaps your ass.

WE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR OFFSPRING TO GET WHATEVER DUMB DEGREES FROM COLLEGES --FULL OF PILED HIGHER & DEEPER JACKASS PROGRAMS,WHICH ARE FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR JACKASS PROFESSORS ...

These people are terrible. I bet you work with some people with them college dagrees. Smart asses aren't they, with them spelling skills and logic and stuff. We should end all post secondary education. Its been useless in the United States. And what the hey. Kids should be as stupid as their parents an never aspire to more.

NOR WE WANT PROPGANDIZED WET BEHIND THE EARS COLLEGE AGE VOTING UNLESS THEY'VE PAID TAXES FOR AT LEAST 8 YEARS OR BEEN IN MILITARY.

Your Gawd Damned right here brother! What the hell could an 18 year-old know about shit? Or some smart assed college kid? I'm thinking maybe we could let em vote if their the product of an inbred marriage maybe. The mom would get special smart genes from her dad to pass on to her child, another smart gene product of her dad. Oops! Sorry to talk about genetics and stuff. Thats smart ass college talk fer shor. Next thing ya know I'll be talkin bout alleles an eck-eenomics.

WE DO NOT LIKE MICHAEL MOORE AND HIS FOLLOWERS...WE THOUGHT MICHAEL MOORE'S FILM WAS NO DOCUMENTARY

Ditto! I much prefer the swifty boats lies..errr, documentary.

Do I get my pointy hat with the eye holes yet? I don't gotta burn a cross first, do I?

MODERATES AND SWING VOTERS DON'T WANT GAY MARRIAGE ...DO NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD JACKASSES INFLUENCE...

So what you are yelling is that you don't like gay marriage. What about gay unions granting spousal benefits? Or is it that thinking about two men kissing gives you a little chubby and makes you feel...you know...dirty? Or is it only when you think about the tongue play? You can tell us, we're all friends here.

DO NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD JACKASSES INFLUENCE...

I know what you mean about Reagan and Schwarzenegger.

DO NOT WANT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION & QUOTAS !!!

Me either. That Colin Powell rose too high, in my opinion.

WE DON'T WANT ILLEGALS OR EVEN GREEN CARDS TO HAVE GOVT. BENEFITS OR PAY FOR ALL THEIR DAMN SCHOOL COSTS!!!!

Me either. And that idiot Bush wants to pay them a legal 3.50 an hour to take your minimum wage job. Boy! I bet that plan chaps your ass.

WE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR OFFSPRING TO GET WHATEVER DUMB DEGREES FROM COLLEGES --FULL OF PILED HIGHER & DEEPER JACKASS PROGRAMS,WHICH ARE FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR JACKASS PROFESSORS ...

These people are terrible. I bet you work with some people with them college dagrees. Smart asses aren't they, with them spelling skills and logic and stuff. We should end all post secondary education. Its been useless in the United States. And what the hey. Kids should be as stupid as their parents an never aspire to more.

NOR WE WANT PROPGANDIZED WET BEHIND THE EARS COLLEGE AGE VOTING UNLESS THEY'VE PAID TAXES FOR AT LEAST 8 YEARS OR BEEN IN MILITARY.

Your Gawd Damned right here brother! What the hell could an 18 year-old know about shit? Or some smart assed college kid? I'm thinking maybe we could let em vote if their the product of an inbred marriage maybe. The mom would get special smart genes from her dad to pass on to her child, another smart gene product of her dad. Oops! Sorry to talk about genetics and stuff. Thats smart ass college talk fer shor. Next thing ya know I'll be talkin bout alleles an eck-eenomics.

WE DO NOT LIKE MICHAEL MOORE AND HIS FOLLOWERS...WE THOUGHT MICHAEL MOORE'S FILM WAS NO DOCUMENTARY

Ditto! I much prefer the swifty boats lies..errr, documentary.

Do I get my pointy hat with the eye holes yet? I don't gotta burn a cross first, do I?