As I understand it from postings on a number of sites, Ohio law requires that the vote be certified before it can be challenged and that the challenge must be filed within five days of the certification. Hence, Blackwell's efforts to drag out the count to ensure that the recount is too late to change the outcome in the Electoral College.

Funny, yeah - but if it's funny, how come it makes me angrier and angrier?

Good God! Wouldn't this country make any South American dictator proud? Religion to control the masses and fraud to control the vote. America, just like any other narco-terrorist country. All that's needed need now are troops patroling the streets to quell dissent.

What?
If the votes have to be certified before they can be challenged...than how can they send any electoral delegates if the challenge is being conducted?
Unless, a recount can never overturn a certified count….which defeats the purpose of a recount.
This is too messed up…..no wonder the lawyers had to be on standby……

So can anyone tell me if the additional 4000 Bush votes in that Ohio county that only had 600 some odd registered voters gets counted in the certified count which can never be overturned?

Brian Boru has the right idea. You're forgetting what happened in 2000; the Gore team made a big mistake by fighting certification, when they could have challenged after certification had already taken place.

Relax, amigo--it's not like we're all of a sudden going to find out that we won. Whether the votes actually stack up that way or not, there's no way Kerry will be in the White House in February (except on a tour).

Actually, that's a standard process, one we're becoming familiar with here in Washington. Our gubernatorial race -- the one where Republican Rossi leads Democrat Gregoire by 261 votes after the first pass, has several steps spelled out by law. Although I'm giving specific dates here, I think it's actually a matter of "X days after event Y".

November 17 -- All counties report their official counts to the state. If any candidate "wins" by less than 0.25% and 150 votes, each county must do a manual recount. If any candidate wins by less than 0.5% and 2000 votes, each county must do an automated recount (feed the ballots through the scanners again). The latter is about to happen here.

December 2 -- Secretary of State certifies results. Unless there's been a mandatory recount (like in our Gov race), that certified total is what was presented to the SoS on November 17. Otherwise, it's the recount totals.

Only after the SoS's certification can a campaign request a recount on its own. I don't think there's a "closeness" requirement ... any campaign can request a recount. However, the campaign has to pay an up-front deposit for this type of recount -- 15 cent/vote for automated, 25 cents/vote for manual -- and will be billed for anything above that amount. That is, unless the recount changes the outcome. If the requesting candidate comes out as the winner in the requested recount, then the state will pay for that recount.

Now, this might interfere with the Electoral College schedule if the presidential race were being recounted. I don't have a handle on what Washington would do in such a case. But I think that, even though our SoS is a Republican, it would be done rather more decorously (and decidedly more openly) than in Ken Blackwell's Ohio.

Final note -- it may be a big plus that the election was held on the earliest possible date this year. That might give the process a couple of extra days leeway that Katherine Harris and the SCOTUS didn't permit in 2000.

Dems have to decide if they will continue to play nice. What happened in OH and FL and others states where republicans control the voting process and rules, are unacceptable.

They put fewer voting machines in BLUE counties while place more voting machines in RED counties. It is a voter suppression dirty trick w/o vilolating the laws. That's how Bush won OH and FL. When people had to wait inline for up to 7 hours to cast a dammned vote, something is wrong with our democracy but you know what replublicans don't care. They only care about 1 thing, POWER. Republicans will try anything to stay in power. Remember, before election, the WH ie Rove signaled to republicans in Congress that ALL dirty tricks are in play.

In the meantime, we have Dem governors in IA and NM and what did they do? Nothing. Kerry lost both states by 8k-10k votes. NO voter supression or intimidation in IA and NM against Bush's partiscans while plenty of dirty tricks were pulled against Kerry's potential voters in RED states..

It is time for Dems to decide if they want to fight in gutters or be killed by your opponents. It is a war worth fighting for, folks. Until we have federal laws requiring state officials to put equal number of machines in all counties, Dems will continue to lose unless we fight like them, in gutters.

Geez, y'all just can't lose with dignity and grace.

Geez, y'all just can't lose with dignity and grace. - Posted by muckdog at November 19, 2004 09:56 AM

Geez, y'all just can't WIN with dignity and grace.

muck,

Geez, y'all can't win unless you cheat, lie, threaten, and steal.

Dignity and Grace?

LOL.

Your people are unfamiliar with those concepts. It's something Democrats do, not goppers.

I asked elswhere what the administration's reaction would be if Kerry won before the electoral college and does anybody have a clue what would happen if he won *after* the EC. Right now I'd be content to let Bush have most of the presidency if Kerry can have the power to nominate judges/justices.

ct up-thread is correct - the integrity of our vote is the foundatin of our democracy - if we don't fight for our vote, we are left with nothing.

I wondered how Bush could be so contemptuous and peevish in the first debate, his attitude coming across as if he thought, "why do I have to be here?" Well, he knew his vote machine friends were going to take care of him, so why bother with the debates. Then his handlers told him it'd be too suspicious to appear so idiotic, and he practiced a little for the next two.

Maybe you could call Art Bell's show, and say that democratic voters were abducted by aliens or that crop circles wiped out democratic polling locations. Maybe that you had a vision where the Antichrist comes from the Republican party sometime during the next few years. He'd probably take your call and give you 10-15 minutes.

Well, now that you mention it, muckdog, George W. Bush IS acting about the opposite of what I imagine Jesus would be doing in regards to the civilian population over in Iraq, or even the poor in the US. I always heard Jesus thought you should help other people (and probably not just defense contractors). Hmmmmm

Muckdog am I to assume that you don't care if the repubs won legitimately? You just want everyone to shut up and except the results regardless of their authenticity? That you totally trust your government to do the right thing for little ole you and yours?
Tell me Muckdog, did OJ kill Ron & Nichol?
Should Clinton have been kicked out of office?
How about Rodney King, did he deserve to be beaten by the cops?
Just trying to get a little insight into how your mind works old boy.
I want the real winner to be the person who we voted for that really got the most votes. If bush got the most votes/electoral votes then lets find that out and then I will support our president. If Kerry did win then will you support our president, well Muckdog?
I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want a win if that win was not earned. Now that's un-American. We have the opportunity to in affect throw the red flag and take a very close look at the replay from all angles and make sure we got the call right. Got a problem with that? Please move to a country that will suit your morals more closely than this country. OK.

These religious people who are claiming that bush is doing what he does in Jesus's name had better hope that Jesus doesn't return because if He does He may not be to happy that His name has been use by them to justify their ACT OF EVIL.

The war in Iraq is evil and wrong, period.

Muck

Art Bell retired a while back. Maybe the aliens finally came for him!

Maxcat, how come you're not calling for a recount of the St. Louis Cardinals vs. Boston Red Sox World Series? I'd think you'd want to know who the real winner is, instead of being duped by the media that the Red Sox won. Maybe the Cardinals won. Shouldn't there be an investigation?

And lets not get started on the alleged victory of the New England Patriots in the last Super Bowl! It's obvious that they could only "win" if they cheated, stole, and distracted us with a nudity at halftime. America needs to know who the real winner was! Lets recount the touchdowns!

It's all rigged! Keep an eye on those Celtics! Make sure every bucket is counted!

Regarding Sharon's comment, I suppose she'd want our response to 9/11 to be to turn the other cheek and tell the terrorists to go and sin no more...

Have you read any of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man yet muck? That book is full of stuff that should be right up your alley, considering you're Alan Greenspan's right-hand pinky fingernail.

On second though, don't read it. Your head would explode due to the cognitive dissonance it would cause. We would miss your wrong-wingedness and have to rely on others for humor.

muckdog,

Iraq was not involved with 911. And it's CIVILIANS being splattered all over the streets of Iraq for your revenge. I can't see how you defend this horror as a decent response. There is a vast difference between turning the other cheek and what's taking place. And if you don't think thousands of formerly non-terrorists have become terrorists thanks to Bush et al, then you are dreaming. Welcome to hell, and it's going to spread thanks to attitudes like yours. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

Maxcat, how come you're not calling for a recount of the St. Louis Cardinals vs. Boston Red Sox World Series? I'd think you'd want to know who the real winner is, instead of being duped by the media that the Red Sox won. Maybe the Cardinals won. Shouldn't there be an investigation?

And lets not get started on the alleged victory of the New England Patriots in the last Super Bowl! It's obvious that they could only "win" if they cheated, stole, and distracted us with a nudity at halftime. America needs to know who the real winner was! Lets recount the touchdowns!

THAT IS PROBABLY THE STUPIDIST RESPONSE TO DATE.

By the time Bush got the August PDB that warned Bin Laden was determined to strike on US soil, he knew Bin Laden was involved with the USS Cole incident, YET HE DID NOTHING. Is that what you mean by "turn the other cheek?" muckdog. Is that why Bush is your hero?