I might be missing something, but it seems the republi-cons don't engage as often as they once did. I wonder if they didn't count on the evangelical twist. Don't know what it is, but these people seem embarrased. Maybe the recent poll showing 78% of Americans support abortion rights has something to do with it.

Here's the way I handle conversation with Bush supporters. I talk about how I use to be a Republican. I am for small government and fiscal responsibility. It's one thing to be a tax and spend liberal, yet quite another to be a borrow and spend conservative. (Oxymoronic if you asked me)

I also talk about how the present government has repeatedly lied to get their way. (WMD in Iraq, cost of Medicare drug plan, etc.) Another topic that meets with agreement is how policy is bought and paid for by the institutionalized bribery known as the lobbying system. Also the seemless transition from the corporate world into government and back again that is par for the course these days. These guys in power are emptying the Treasury into corporate pockets and destroying any chance at prosperity for our children.

These topics tend to meet with agreement without causing major defensiveness. BTW, although I am a practicing Unitarian Universalist, I mention to any fundy types that I was raised Cathoulic and at 10 years old, accepted Christ as my personal savior at the urging of a bible toting evangelical at a baseball field. It puts them at ease, even though my spiritual path has lead me elsewhere at present.

Say the words to yourself and you are saved. It seems one can live a totally self absorbed existance as long as you have said the words. Once they believe you are one of them, they tend toward listening instead of converting.

I also talk about how the present government has repeatedly lied to get their way.

It is curious, isn't it, how "moral values" never seems to include telling the truth for the red state mob. I read a religious book once that said God had actually commanded people NOT to bear false witness, but I guess this was just some obscure text.

Talking to republicans is hard because the Rush talking points aren't made for debate, just noise

The only political arguments I've engaged in with my Republican dad aren't so much ideological as they are practical.

I still have no idea whom he voted for - he won't tell me, which probably means he voted for Bush - but he repeatedly dismisses my concerns about such things as the dismantling of Social Security, the shifting burden of taxation onto the working classes, and the destruction of most major entitlement programs as just "so much hysteria." He is convinced that the American public will "never stand for" what Bush has proposed and is deaf to my arguments that, with one-party rule in Washington, the American public have already stood for it but are just too dumb to realize it. He refuses to acknowledge that the Bush administration has lied about Iraq (he thinks it was an "honest mistake" that there were no WMDs) and that they have consistently represented their policies and ideology as the exact opposite of what they are intended to do. He believes we have enough checks and balances in our system to safeguard the public interest, that Social Security will be saved, and that Bush will not be able to advance his agenda to the extent that he has said he wants to.

My dad's a smart guy. He believes in gay rights, the separation of church and state, and agrees with me about the folly of privatizing Social Security. But he is completely blind to the horrendous things that can happen when one party controls all three branches of government.

I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who voted for Bush on a single issue, such as taxes, probably feel the same way. They simply refuse to acknowledge the damage they have wrought with their votes.

Here in South Carolina most people have their minds made up, so don't confuse them with the facts. I'm lucky to belong to a "blue" family in
rhe midst of a very red state. Indeed we're rare
considering that we have not only a white Southern Baptist hertiage but also Confederate veterians for ancesters. So my thanksgiving was amonst kinfolk in politics as well as blood. Brisa is right about religious conservatives being approachable if they know that although you may be liberal for their tastes, at least your not godless. This is a burden we progressive Christian southerners have to approach our neighbors through common ground and stress to them that they are being lied to and used by people who are harming them in the long run. This will be a long term process,but then it took the Republicans 100 years to get these people where they want them. Patence has its own rewards.

I wish we had a hundred years to reverse things!

Somehow, I wonder if we have even ten.

My wife, daughter and I had members of both our respective families as well as a number of friends over for Thanksgiving. Not a Republican or Bush voter in the bunch. The election results were much lamented by all. Interestingly we had several French and Polish nationals as guests. They related the great disappointment that they had heard from friends and family back home regarding Bush's re-election. After that we all drank liberally and wound up turning the living room into an impromptu disco.

We don't talk politics in my family because we'd just have to kill each other if we did, but we have proxy wars. This holiday's sampling:
1. Husband (d) says he hasn't gotten his tax refund yet; father (r) launches into long discussion of the necessity of a flat tax. (advantage: R)
2. Father (r) says he can't imagine any company being as good a corporate citizen as Wal-Mart, I argue for Costco (never having been there in my life), (Advantage: Draw)
3. Mother tries to drag me to Wal-Mart, I insist on going to Target instead (advantage: D)
4. Long discussion about Revolutionary War and how Freedom Isn't Free (advantage: both sides feel as if they are entirely vindicated).

I got the information that people voted for W because they felt sorry for him. "He's doing the best he can." They think that he is mentally retarded so therefore he is excused from having any responsbility for his actions.

My family is Democrat except for a sister and a niece, and I think we brought them around.

I've heard the story many,many times of Republicans in the family refusing to listen facts or argument. Politics for them seems to be part of their protective bubble, like a mental gated community, mall, new church, or theme park, and they basically want to have a nice comforting political belief. It's also some kind of personal committment to virtue and success. No facts about Iraq, Bush or finance can penetrated that bubble.

Well, it appears I'm going to spend the next few months weaseling an invitation to muckcat's for Thanksgiving next year.

Didn't we go to different high schools together, muckcat?

All better reasons than anything you came up with to vote for Kerry.

Anybody who ignores the fact that looks matter in this society in the TV age is not living in the real world. Conventional and a reasonably pleasing physical appearance is the bar that must be passed -- candidates don't have to be beautiful or handsome -- merely "good enough" looking.

I appreciate that some people find Kerry very attractive, but that is not the test. The test is "conventional" looks not whether or not a limited number find someone attractive. Had someone merely scored the following on looks alone, the winner was predicted: Knowles/Murkowski(AK), Mongiardo/Bunning (KY), Carson/Coburn (OK). Tannenbaum scored higher than other DEM Senate candidates, but her competition scored even higher. Castor/Martinez both scored low.
In general, GOP spokespersons are better looking than the DEMs. And only the GOP could get away with someone like Rice -- an unattractive and seemingly not too swift person when compared with someone like Lani Guinere that we tossed away so easily. A lot of these GOP men have a slimy/oily quality -- something that would be more readily accessible to viewer if they were contrasted with a DEM that scored as high on the "conventional looks quotient."

The one thing Democrats need to avoid is overcompensating on this factor. The Quayles of the world are too obvious and are easily rejected if there is a credible DEM alternative (something the MA DEM party didn't manage in their last Governor's race).

My son-in-law thinks Bush is an idiot but voted for him anyway because of legal reform. ????? My fundi son admits that the party of his grandfather (Dem) would be better for him and his family but he is pro-life and voted for Bush. He claims he carefully weighed his decision but I think he was just looking for reasons not to like Kerry.

For the most part we avoided the topic. The older folks all said the did not like Bush. The oldest, previous republicans, were very worried about the budget. The ones my age had better thought out reasons but basically couldn't stand Bush. I told my son-in-law that history would not be kind to Bush and made my daughter mad at me.

I have one very good friend that I have not seen or talked to since the election. I just can't believe that someone so intelligent could swallow that crap without questioning it.

Grandma Jo

The relatives of mine that voted for Bush are stuck in a rut - they are Republicans - for the same reason they are Catholics - because their parents and grandparents were Republican and Catholics. (No rip on Catholics - some of my best friends....)
My cousins are the type who never questioned, much less revolted, from their roots. They never moved far away - they don't like change - they don't even like conversation about change.
I could say something fairly innocuous, such as, 'Ellen DeGeneres has a good daytime talk show', and my cousin would shake her head and walk away. Another cousin got visably annoyed when I brought up the subject of stem-cell research.
Anyway, you know the type - trying to convert them would be futile. They refuse to even discuss issues. And they will vote Republican the rest of their lives - their feeling of security depends on it.

Dear Pessimist:
Sorry it took so long to get back to you but last night was the Saturday after thanksgiving. I share your concern that some issues like global warming give us little time, but I’m hoping that the level of incompetence shown in Bush’s first term plus the history of second terms being even worse will
result in us only needing four years to make enough of a difference to elect a president and enough senators and congress members to get things done. Before the election I believed that enough people understood pragmatic reality to overcome the fear tatics. I believe that future Americans will look at this first decade of the new century as a dark time in their history. Unfortunately, this dark period will last for a decade rather than half a decade and will be worse than it had to be. All we can do is persevere and work towards a better future. Thanks to you and the rest of the staff for The Left-coaster.

My mom is a Republican. She is also pro-choice, against the Iraq war, doesn't like the Medicare situation. BUT she votes for GOP because "the Democrats want to turn the country over to Blacks and Mexicans." ( she doesn't mean people who are from Mexico, per se, but rather anyone who is Hispanic). When you point out that Bush is pushing a variety of legislation that will allow Mexicans to enter the US real easy and live and work here, she turns a deaf ear. Really, it boils down to racism. And that is the bedrock of the GOP. Oh, I might add that her dad, my grandad, actually marched in KKK parades in the thirties. You can hollar "values" as loud as you want, you can hollar "Christ" as loud as you want......but in the South, GOP is the only choice for bigots. That is what it is *really* about, folks.

Well, it appears I'm going to spend the next few months weaseling an invitation to muckcat's for Thanksgiving next year.

phidipides,

If you find yourself in the NYC area you are of course more than welcome. We had several guests this year who were guests of guests.

The only requirements are that you bring some item of food, preferebly a traditional ethnic or family dish, and that you be prepared to suffer the accents of various nationalities. Some of the english is a little broken but the substance of the conversation is usually engaging.

And the music was above par this year thanks to my brother-in-law who took it upon himself to play deejay.

I am the lone Democrat in a sea of incredibly fundamentalist Christian Republicans. Although I didn't want to bring up politics during the dinner, my aunt pushed it to the table. Naturally, my uncle and I butted heads. He, of course, is a dittohead, as is my aunt and mom. My dad pays no attention to politics, but voted for Bush. I don't know why: damned conservative media assassinated Kerry's records and overhyped Bush's. Especially on Faux News.

My Dittohead Uncle claimed rather strongly that "Nobody who proclaims to be a Christian could vote for a Democrat!" (I didn't bother to tell him that I apostated from the faith a while ago; that would only have caused pain, and probably proven his point)

As jr said, Rush's talking are mainly rooted in opinion with maybe the odor of fact wafting from the background. "Saddam Hussein was allied to Al Qaeda!" What? Just because an operative visited Iraq (and even that is debatable)? Krushchev visited Disneyland, and the US and USSR were NOT allies!

I could go on. Just feel my pain of being the ONLY intellectual elitist liberal punk in my family of nine. My brother is 16 and slightly anti-Bush; I'll keep working on him.

Well,
Fortunately, since I live in Minnesota, everyone at Thanksgiving were Democrats. My Mother-in-law hates Bush because he is trying to push women's rights back to the 1850's, and he is an arrogant no-brainer, who was born on third base, and thinks he hit a triple. My wife and I agree, but also don't want the National Parks to become motorized racetracks. We were all in agreement that he is a lying sack of sh--. We also have 3 Pentacostal preachers on my wife's side, and she also has 3 openly Lesbian cousin's and aunts! It's too bad we couldn't all get together on Thanksgiving, it would be a real free for all!

I am a Vietnamese-American who lives in a very Blue state (Maryland) but who voted for Pres. Bush. My mom did likewise. My older brother and nephew are Democrats (such an horror) and voted for Kerry. At Thanksgiving, I made fun of my brother and nephew because they had voted for a loser.

Viva Bush !

T.Nguyen

I am a Vietnamese-American who lives in a very Blue state (Maryland) but who voted for Pres. Bush. My mom did likewise. My older brother and nephew are Democrats (such an horror) and voted for Kerry. At Thanksgiving, I made fun of my brother and nephew because they had voted for a loser.

Viva Bush !

T.Nguyen

T.Nguyen- So, why did you vote for Bush? What were your reasons and what were those reasons based on? Do you believe Bush supports your ethnic community better than the Democrats? Do you feel your rights as a citizen or resident are superior under Republican rule versus Democratic?