This is what I face on a daily basis in South Carolina. Before the election I invited some of my neighbors to take that 'test' on who to vote for. (Sorry I can't remember a link to it.)
They ALL leaned towards Kerry on the issues but insisted that the test was somehow rigged to favor Kerry until I took it and deliberatily answered the questions to 'agree' with Bush.

This is just one example. In the long run we can only be ourselves and educate when possible one person at a time. We must be dedicated and have the optimism to believe that four years is enough. Stress the fact that most of Bush's advisors are NEO-CONSERVATIVES. A neo-conservative is a bad conservative. This fondness for the phrase conservative can't be broken in one day, but remember it took the Gold-water-Reagan group fifteen years to rehabilatate conservative from its nadar in the sixties. Today
we have the advantege of computers and e-mail to speed up the process for us.

Most people tend towards 'liberal' positions especally on economic issues, that's why education must be ongoing if we are to give America the future it is going to need to undo
the damage currently being done.

There is a mirror image constituency on the left, likewise uninformed and swayed by base rhetoric.

There are likewise bright and well-informed ideologues on both sides.

What both parties fight over are folks in the middle who can be swayed. We on the right have finally come to the realization that most of you cant be convinced, that compromise, previously sought, is now repugnant, so we simply have to defeat you.

There was a study done not too long ago, by some group at the University of Maryland I think, which showed that Repubs believed in things which were totally out of touch with reality. It's one thing to believe that congress controls the EPA, but something else to believe ten years after Gingrich that the dirty commie red leftists control congress. Illiteracy is a major problem in this country; we're dealing here with political illiteracy and the dems have to declare war on it.

We on the right have finally come to the realization that most of you cant be convinced, that compromise, previously sought, is now repugnant, so we simply have to defeat you.

What nonsense. You've had the last four years, and you get the next four unless there is a merciful God. What good things has Bush done? How's your deficit? How has he caused us to aspire to anything more than fear of "terra-ism." How has he inspired us to greatness?

Since we can't be convinced, is that where the vote fraud comes in? Concentration camps? Re-education centers?

Defeat us? Even in our loss we won because we took the high road, while you offered nothing but lies and abominations for candidates and constituents. You can win all the elections you want. You are no better than common criminals, and share the same general moral values as Idi Amin Dada. If there is a hell, I get to warm my feet over a charcoal brazier filled with people just like you.

At Thanksgiving I had a similar conversation with a cousin. We went in to Iraq to "liberate" the people. WHen I brought up the same 100,000 civilians killed, the people are all terrorists."

So we're liberating the terrorists? Huh?

I mean, what can you say?

Needless to say, he's a Limbaugh listener. He's not in it for facts or anything like that, it's "values." More like "cult."

There's no hope until we get a Democratic party leadership with spine and guts---which means there's no hope.

Pass this on to all those out there who are to "busy" to learn about the politics and foreign policy of their country.

Watching Curtis' BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares" is like taking the Red Pill in the movie The Matrix. Whatever your plans are for tonight or tomorrow, clip three hours out of them and take the Red Pill.

First hour.

Second hour.

Third hour (broadband gives a more viewable format).

But be forewarned: You'll never see political reality the same again.

The difficulty is not just that people are ignorant, it is that they are willfully ignorant. Often even the most respectful attempt to explain facts or explore the basis for false beliefs will get rejection, denunciation or just a swift change of subject.

Most people do not come to their beliefs by learning the facts and reasoning from the facts. They make a gut decision and spend the rest of their time justifying it.

That is why the most powerful negative impact of the Republican propaganda outlets like broadcast and cable television isn't that they misstate facts, ignore facts or tell lies. Their power is that they reinforce already established ideas, reassure people in their false beliefs and create the illusion that "most everyone" believes as they do.

A good example is the widespread belief that Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 was so intractable.

Since many people are just plain ignorant of the size and diversity of Arabs and Muslims, they are inclined to think of "them" as a single and single-minded group. How many times have war supporters said "We have to get them before they get us." Who is them? Al Qaeda? Islamic fundies? Saddam Hussein? To most Americans, all three of these and many more are "them" and "they" must be stopped. Even if it means killing children.

Bush/Cheney and the corporate press/media inflamed the fear and hatred toward this group, conflated all of "them" into "the terrorists," and reassured Americans that their beliefs about "them" as the enemy was correct.

An American can be very comfortable in their false beliefs because for all but a handful of them, there are no consequences to being wrong.

Then one of us comes along, with our facts and figures, our unsettling revelations and our demand for their time and mental energy.

What chance do we have against that?

Well, it isn't hopeless and it should never be abandoned. But we have to accept that under the circumstances, 48% might have been the best we could do.

What James said. People like that I see aren't ignorant because they do not have time to get information, they go to great lengths to only get told what they want to hear. Short of personal catastrophe they are unreachable.

"Short of personal catastrophe they are unreachable." Stay tuned, the personal catastrophe (your job is cut, your housing bubble is burst, your 401(k) is gone) is on the way.

Like you and others I have read all the "reasons" given for the Kerry defeat. I don't agree with most. I especially don't agree with "trying to see" the other sides issues. Your diary really hits all the reasons democrats shouldn't "see the other sides issues" they don't have any logical or informed ones. There is one thing that bothers me about this election coverage that I think about every day. Why do the liberals and blue state people accept the analyisis that "we lack morals" and "we look down" on the red states? No media or leader has fought back by saying that is NOT TRUE!!. Obama is the only one who came close with"we worship a powerful god""
That should be the democrat message, not in those words, but as framing the argument. Blue state people are really no different thant red state people,albeit, they usually have deep ethnic roots, The democrats have got it all wrong. that simple framing message is the context to begin the issue debate. Their church leaders have their ears and fill them with hate. The democrats have to campaign in their small towns and frame our message from the church doors out!

If every left-leaning individual in this country could somehow manage to engage in a thoughtful conversation with someone on the right, not necessarily to convert them, but to come to some consentual, thought-provoking level, I believe that would do more for us, meaning all Americans, than any high-minded conversion attempt could ever warrant. After all, how many of us are angered by their attempts to convert us? How about simply starting a dialogue with someone who voted differently than you. Start by talking about something that we can all agree on, such as personal responsibility (Repubs used to be all over that one), and extend it from there -- to corporate responsibility, government responsibility, and so on. All is not lost, we do agreee on some things, like it or not. Our methods may be different, but I can't give up the thought that there is a common ground somewhere. Good luck!

If every left-leaning individual in this country could somehow manage to engage in a thoughtful conversation with someone on the right, not necessarily to convert them, but to come to some consentual, thought-provoking level, I believe that would do more for us, meaning all Americans, than any high-minded conversion attempt could ever warrant. After all, how many of us are angered by their attempts to convert us? How about simply starting a dialogue with someone who voted differently than you. Start by talking about something that we can all agree on, such as personal responsibility (Repubs used to be all over that one), and extend it from there -- to corporate responsibility, government responsibility, and so on. All is not lost, we do agreee on some things, like it or not. Our methods may be different, but I can't give up the thought that there is a common ground somewhere. Good luck!

Like you and others I have read all the "reasons" given for the Kerry defeat. I don't agree with most. I especially don't agree with "trying to see" the other sides issues. Your diary really hits all the reasons democrats shouldn't "see the other sides issues" they don't have any logical or informed ones. There is one thing that bothers me about this election coverage that I think about every day. Why do the liberals and blue state people accept the analyisis that "we lack morals" and "we look down" on the red states? No media or leader has fought back by saying that is NOT TRUE!!. Obama is the only one who came close with"we worship a powerful god""
That should be the democrat message, not in those words, but as framing the argument. Blue state people are really no different than red state people,albeit, they usually have deep ethnic roots, The democrats have got it all wrong. that simple framing message is the context to begin the issue debate. Their church leaders have their ears and fill them with hate. The democrats have to campaign in their small towns and frame our message from the church doors out!

Like you and others I have read all the "reasons" given for the Kerry defeat. I don't agree with most. I especially don't agree with "trying to see" the other sides issues. Your diary really hits all the reasons democrats shouldn't "see the other sides issues" they don't have any logical or informed ones. There is one thing that bothers me about this election coverage that I think about every day. Why do the liberals and blue state people accept the analyisis that "we lack morals" and "we look down" on the red states? No media or leader has fought back by saying that is NOT TRUE!!. Obama is the only one who came close with"we worship a powerful god""
That should be the democrat message, not in those words, but as framing the argument. Blue state people are really no different than red state people,albeit, they usually have deep ethnic roots, The democrats have got it all wrong. that simple framing message is the context to begin the issue debate. Their church leaders have their ears and fill them with hate. The democrats have to campaign in their small towns and frame our message from the church doors out!

People are not born ignorant, or racist. They are made that way by various forces that surround them. If there is a concerted effort to introduce ignorance and racism by a force that has the ability to enter into everyones lives, through Religion and Media, many people will succumb to that effort and over time, accept it as their way of life. Welcome to the GOP.

If there is a concerted effort to introduce ignorance and racism by a force that has the ability to enter into everyones lives, through Religion and Media, many people will succumb to that effort and over time, accept it as their way of life. Welcome to the GOP.

T2, and also, welcome to Nazi Germany. The resemblace in what you described is striking isn't it??

I posted the following in response to Mary's open thread from today- but I think it definitely applies:
I just hope we can survive long enough for the OTHER 51% of the fricken mesmerized, comatose BOZO's out there to get it. I was dating a girl a while ago, very smart, successful girl; and this was several months before the elections, during the summer. I asked her who she was voting for, she said Bu$h... Of course my jaw hit the floor, and I asked her why. She didn't really know!!! She just "liked Bush." After some debate, I realized that politics meant very little to her, and at one point several weeks later, I asked her again. This time, she actually smiled, as if the obvious strife her choice was causing me pleased her, (or- as I've seen from a lot of GOP supporters- with a look as if, "Oh, you poor, poor misguided person, you just don't get it- HE'S GREAT!! What's wrong with you?!?!") and she said, "I'm quite fond of our president Bush, I think he's had to make some tough choices and I think he's done a pretty good job with things..."

Of course at that point my head just about exploded and I simply dropped the subject as no amount of conversation was going to make any bit of difference. I knew politics didn't really matter at all to her, so, I dropped it.

For a while, the mentality of people like this simply made NO SENSE whatsoever to me, until I read this column by John Dean, and paying particular attention to the 5th section titled: "Why Are Bush Supporters Resistant to Well-Established, Non-partisan Facts" (i.e. Toby Putzold, Muckdog, Avenger D22, et all) and it all started to make sense to me. Not that it ACTUALLY made sense, but I've always had the innate ability to put myself in someone else's shoes, and to attempt to see and understand their side of things, even if I didn't agree with them.

Infuriating as it was, at least I wasn't wallowing around in sheer frustration, going, "why? why? WHY?!?!?!?!?! HOW COULD 52 MILLION PEOPLE BE SOOOO FUCKING STUPID?!?!?!?!""

Hopefully the REST of America will wake up and run the chimporer and Bu$hCo out of office before they sink us all...

Two conceptual issues here:

1) Most people perceive the world through a frame which they use to explain it.

2) Most people don't have time to know the facts about most things.

Biggest challenges to Democrats and intellectuals to overcome this:
1) Create a simple frame that allows people to understand events, and
2) Be willing to look for every way to pound him a few simple facts that help understand the world.

Now think of the last campaign. The Bushies has simple frame: President brave, makes tough decisions, Kerry flipper-flopper. Simple, eh?
And they relentlessly searched every media to get that message out. Let's face it, it was pretty impressive PR - all those cable station ads, that relentless sound bites

Denial and ignorance is always tough to overcome and clearly a lot of Americans did not want to think that they were duped. But, there were opportunities to frame the debate and there still are. But it takes a lot of hard work to boil down to a good simple, easily communicated "frame".

Two conceptual issues here:

1) Most people perceive the world through a frame which they use to explain it.

2) Most people don't have time to know the facts about most things.

Biggest challenges to Democrats and intellectuals to overcome this:
1) Create a simple frame that allows people to understand events, and
2) Be willing to look for every way to pound him a few simple facts that help understand the world.

Now think of the last campaign. The Bushies has simple frame: President brave, makes tough decisions, Kerry flipper-flopper. Simple, eh?
And they relentlessly searched every media to get that message out. Let's face it, it was pretty impressive PR - all those cable station ads, that relentless sound bites

Denial and ignorance is always tough to overcome and clearly a lot of Americans did not want to think that they were duped. But, there were opportunities to frame the debate and there still are. But it takes a lot of hard work to boil down to a good simple, easily communicated "frame".

Two conceptual issues here:

1) Most people perceive the world through a frame which they use to explain it.

2) Most people don't have time to know the facts about most things.

Biggest challenges to Democrats and intellectuals to overcome this:
1) Create a simple frame that allows people to understand events, and
2) Be willing to look for every way to pound him a few simple facts that help understand the world.

Now think of the last campaign. The Bushies has simple frame: President brave, makes tough decisions, Kerry flipper-flopper. Simple, eh?
And they relentlessly searched every media to get that message out. Let's face it, it was pretty impressive PR - all those cable station ads, that relentless sound bites

Denial and ignorance is always tough to overcome and clearly a lot of Americans did not want to think that they were duped. But, there were opportunities to frame the debate and there still are. But it takes a lot of hard work to boil down to a good simple, easily communicated "frame".

My red-state sister, like Melinda in this story, is a schoolteacher. Think about that. Our kids are "educated" by the same clueless slobs that put Bush in office again.

Like "Melinda" in this story, my red-state sister is also a schoolteacher. Think about that. Then cry.

Yes Marty, I thought about providing the comparison, but I figured someone out there would be kind enough to do it for me. I do believe that if you put Mein Kampf next to a book on the Bush2 regime, the comparison would be chilling. Most of the world rose up to eventually crush the Nazis and their quest of world domination.....and it only took from say, 1937 until 1945 to end their run. About two terms.

Today's Democrats are too radical and just too far left. The Republicans today are more like the Democrats of the early 1960's. That's why the GOP is winning elections.

Today's Democrats are too radical and just too far left. The Republicans today are more like the Democrats of the early 1960's. That's why the GOP is winning elections.

Re: most of the world rose up...

A conservative colleague asked me to say something good about Bush. The only thing I could come up with is that he created a strong European Union

Muckdog at December 17, 2004 10:44 AM wrote:
"Today's Democrats are too radical and just too far left. The Republicans today are more like the Democrats of the early 1960's. That's why the GOP is winning elections."

Muckdog, most of the Republican leadership today ARE Democrats from the early 1960s. They're the racist, segregationist crowd which couldn't accept the civil rights movement which the Democratic Party leadership embraced in the mid-1960s and abandoned the Democratic Party for a cynical Republican Party which pursued a "Southern" strategy. It's not hard to see why the Old Confederacy states are the most ardent Republican supporters. Since then their racist attitudes have permeated the entire GOP, along with the rest of their intolerance.

I bet you didn't even realize you had so succintly described the Modern Republican Party with your comment too.

Muckdog at December 17, 2004 10:44 AM wrote:
"Today's Democrats are too radical and just too far left. The Republicans today are more like the Democrats of the early 1960's. That's why the GOP is winning elections."

Muckdog, most of the Republican leadership today ARE Democrats from the early 1960s. They're the racist, segregationist crowd which couldn't accept the civil rights movement which the Democratic Party leadership embraced in the mid-1960s and abandoned the Democratic Party for a cynical Republican Party which pursued a "Southern" strategy. It's not hard to see why the Old Confederacy states are the most ardent Republican supporters. Since then their racist attitudes have permeated the entire GOP, along with the rest of their intolerance.

I bet you didn't even realize you had so succintly described the Modern Republican Party with your comment too.

Please to explain how ignorance and stupidity AREN'T the same. Someone who is unaware of the facts, can't be swayed by the facts and can't make time to educate themselves as to the facts sounds pretty stupid to me.

I agree the problem is (unfortunately) one of framing, not of facts. A simple presentation of facts no longer wins the day.

Statistics are spun with counter-statistics, or outright-lies-repeated-often. Most people don't read. Etc.

Many are fearful of Dem 'morality talk' as a move/concession to the right. Reframing isn't about moving to the right. It's about acknowledging a concern or a question. I think that's the 'outreach' we need. Saying 'yes, unwanted pregnancy is a problem in this country. Our plan to provide good contraception/education and economic supports for mothers works better than jailing pregnant moms' supports our core values AND acknowledges the concern/question being raised.

Lakoff's 'how to talk to a conservative' is about talking within their frame. We just need to train our candidates (and their media people) to do this better. Obama's 'we worship an awesome God' is an example of just this.

We won't win over the extremist-righties of course, and we don't need to. But your example is powerful - a voter that *could* be swung if her concerns were acknowledged and respected.

Lakoff's reframing is a two-part process: offering a different frame, AND respecting and acknowledging the question/concern of the person as valid. Neither works without the other.