I never thought Catholics were heavily pro-Bush. Catholics have a long history of supporting education, and American Catholics in particular have shown a willingness to use their minds in the application of their religion.

The people who are screwing this country are the anti-intellectual Christian evangelicals, who take pride in knowing absolutely nothing. They're stupid, they want to be stupid, and if you try to explain how stupid they are they think it's a pop quiz from Jesus, who's testing them to see if they're really, really, really committed to being stupid or not. I used to think these people were just doing the best they can. Now I think of them as budding Taliban, and I hate them.

The voting stats you cite look pretty convincing to me for the opposite argument- Catholics are firmly in the Republican camp.

I'm a true blue Catholic and most of my Catholic friends are Democrats too. Go see natcath.com - it's full of lefty Catholic reporters. Pax Christi is gaining members. The pope spoke out against the war, is in favor of debt cancellation, and has been one of the most ardent advocates for the UN's mission of working through international laws to resolve international conflicts.

Catholic peace and social justice groups are gaining lots of new members since the war started.

Grassroots organization is needed - Dem groups need to hook up with the Catholic peace and social justice group memberships. When we do, we'll be able to mobilize these valuable resources.

i am catholic and wanted to vote for my co religionist john kerry as i believe the war is a debacle and a tragedy.however,it is inconceivable to me that someone could testify ( as i believe kerry has)that life begins at conception and then turn around and simultaneously support the unfettered right to abortion through the entire nine months of preagnancy.i recognize that the right to abortion is here to stay but i also hold that thinking individuals who believe that life begins at the moment of conception should be working diligently and assiduously to make abortions as rare as possible.i know that i view catholic politicians who support partial birth abortion as repugnant.catholic politicians of this day should take their cue from another jfk (circa 1960) who had the courage to say that if his religious beliefs and his oath of office collided ,he would resign.that is real character and does not fall bck on the convoluted and disingenuous approach put fort by mario cuomo who has popularized the "i am personally opposed but" mantra.i think catholics will favor republicans until dems get this issue right.john jansen

..it is inconceivable to me that someone could testify ( as i believe kerry has)that life begins at conception and then turn around and simultaneously support the unfettered right to abortion through the entire nine months of preagnancy.

Is that really something that John Kerry supports?

i recognize that the right to abortion is here to stay but i also hold that thinking individuals who believe that life begins at the moment of conception should be working diligently and assiduously to make abortions as rare as possible.

And traditionally Democratic policies like easy access to birth control and sexual education are much more affective in that respect than are traditionally Republican polices of teaching abstinance. There are more abortions occuring now than there were 4 years ago.

catholic politicians of this day should take their cue from another jfk (circa 1960) who had the courage to say that if his religious beliefs and his oath of office collided ,he would resign.

I may be mistaken but my understanding of that comment by Kennedy is that it was ment to ease the fears of non-Catholics that Kennedy's election would be tantamount to putting the Pope in the White House. I think it had the opposite intent from what you are implying. Kennedy would have resigned had his Catholicism affected his ability to make impartial decisions affecting the general populus.

I'm a Catholic too. And I have no problem differentiating between my personal beliefs, how I conduct my day to day life and how I think our government should try to regulate the behavior of my fellow citizens who may not happen to share my Catholic beliefs. How do you know Cuomo was disingenuous? Because he doesn't hold the same views as you?

However, while Catholics are not a base Republican group, it is not a myth that the Catholic vote was part of the problem for Kerry.
They went from being a net +2 points for Gore to being a net +5 points for Bush.

Catholics are swing group, torn by the desire for social justice but seduced by right wing demagoguery over abortion and gay rights. if the Democrats could find a way to hold Bush accountable for class warfare, they might be able to swing the Catholics back.

So y'all consider Zogby polls accurate now?

Of the Catholics that I know well enough to know their political persuasion the split is noticeably skewed toward Democrat (say 65/35). Of those who tend Republican or are die hard Republican I don't think that their religious views on abortion or same sex marriage are make or break issues for them. It's economics that is the deciding factor. Of course I tend to associate with people who have a similiar world view as I do. And I am relatively young and from New York City. So this is simply my observation. But the idea that the current crop of Democrats is anathema to Catholics in any over riding way is really a stretch.

The problem with John Jansen represents what is the main problem with religion (particularly Evangelical religion) in this country. People are just not results oriented anymore, the age of logic is fading. Because of personal religious reasons I stand against abortion in my own life. This being said, fertilization may happen at contraception, but cells don't begin dividing into different cell types (beyond Stem Cells) until after the first week. Saying that we are "killing babies/Killing life" (I know John would never be this brash, but I know Christians who are) is just absurd. But hey, we don't want an A to B to C argument anymore we just want C.

When dealing with public policy, I always check my religion against logical argument to make sure I creating a net positive result.

Ever baby has a state protected right-to -birth.

After that all bets are off.

My problem is with the people who scream so loudly about abortion, and then turn around and support policies that lead to higher abortion rates.

No birth control, no sex education, and crappy social conditions just to name a few.

They seem to think everybody should just act the way they think they should act. It's like they think they were never horny teenagers themselves. Or if they were they somehow have become paragons of virtue.

Results matter, you can stick all that rhetoric up your a** sideways.

I am soooo tired of people so busy living for the next life f*cking it up for the people trying to build a better life in the here and now.

You die, the worms eat you. End of story.

Even if thats not true, if people would live like this world is the only one we will ever have, than we will all be better off.

Cause if the almighty did make this wonderfull planet we live on, I bet he aint to happy with our stewardship so far.

But hey, Bush sits on the right hand of God the father and all so there you go.

Never mind that little passage about false prophets and such.

I think the reason Kerry voted against the Partial Birth Abortion Ban was that it did not have any escape clauses for when the mother's life was in jeopardy. It was the classic all or none bill.

The Anti-Choice crowd seems to fall into this trap constantly. They want to ban all abortion, even in the case of rape or incest or when a child is known to have a congenital defect. With In-vivo testing advances many genetic diseases and birth defects can be detected by 12 weeks. The Anti-Choice crowd advocates bringing to term these children diagnosed with Taysachs or other congenital defect sentencing them to a short horrible, pain filled life. Gotta love those moral values!

It comes down to this.

The Republicans don't like government to have any control of your money but they want government to control what you do with your body.

Be it who you're sleeping with or whether you have children or not.