One note Karl. Is this all these guys can come up with? I thought blackmail was illegal. Vote our way, or we will smear you. This routine is getting old. If I were Reid, I would make damn sure that their dirty tricks were exposed in any way possible to the public. Still think you can work with this bunch Lieberman?

Oh, and don't forget, this brought to you via the moral values group.

This is where we need Dean on MTP Sunday telling the world about this latest slime. Reach out to Democrats, my ass!

Judith,
This is exactly why I was desperate to see Howard Dean as Chair of the DNC. I long to hear someone actually respond to the GOP on Sunday mornings.

For years, the Republicans have had a coordinated message and the Dems have often seemed clueless. There were times that I could have done a better job of speaking for my party. One example being two summers ago when Joe Biden was asked about the Texas redistricting mess on This Week or MTP and he claimed not to know anything about it. There is no excuse for going on those shows unprepared.

Howard Dean will be a better spokesperson than anyone. (Despite Kerry's assertion that we don't need him in that role.)

joe lieberman is as much a democrat as zell miller..

Public Supports Raising Income Ceiling And Means Testing For Social Security, Not Private Accounts

Cool. I can quit saving and work less hours.

(That's now the majority of folks will respond to such a plan).

(That's now the majority of folks will respond to such a plan).

muckdog you're so full of shit.

You know you don't believe that.

raise the 90k ceiling on SS contributions and the "problem" ends. Simple, unless your entire administration is focused on further enriching the already rich.

Well, if you ignore the politics for a second and look at what is going on with private pensions, public pensions, and social security, is that they're trying to eliminate early retirements.

Many people think they're going to retire on their defined benefit pensions at 55, but the folks administering the pensions realize that this won't work because the pension funds are underfunded and the projected rates of returns are unrealistic. So, they're riggin' the system so that you won't have enough money to afford retirement at 55.

You have two choices.

1. Work harder and save more, so that you can build a large enough nest egg to retire at 55; and so that you won't have to rely on your pension. Of course, if you're already in your mid-30s or older, you don't have enough time to get the job done. If the stock market goes up 7-10% a year, as it has historically, it just won't return enough in 20 years.

2. Work less, save less, and spend more now. If it isn't worthwhile to put in the effort at the job, and you can't get the returns you need from the markets, why bother? You might as well spend the cash now. Take vacations. Get the swimming pool and jacuzzi. Remodel the kitchen. Buy the Lexus. And then you won't fail the means test later in life when it's time to retire. Let the government cover the tab later, and live life to the fullest now.

Muckdog,

So you really believe that if people realize they can't retire at 55 they're just gonna say fuckit and piss everything away? The result being they will live drastically below their accustomed standard of living as retirees, if not in poverty.

Put the anti-communist/socialist-ist partisan propaganda away muck. It's really tired and your attempt to invoke it in this instance is a real stretch even for you.

Example, just a quick thought:

Say you'd get $1500 a month in Social Security benefits. But, since you don't qualify because of means testing, you get $0. Lets assume "means testing" is cash flow + liquid assets. That'd exclude things like your residence, and most likely cash value insurance policies, etc.

$1500 * 12 months = $18,000 in social security per year.

To get $18,000 a year, you'd need a 5% rate of return on a lump sum of $360,000. (Lets assume you could get that 5% in a bond or CD to keep the math easy.)

The question becomes, should you save and invest your whole life to accumulate that $360,000? Because that's what you need to generate the $18,000 per year that you're getting means tested out of.

Or, should you just spend that $360,000 as you live your life, and let the government assume the risk for that $18,000 per year?

No brainer. Get the pool. Get the Lexus. Spend it all. The government's got your back.

LOL.

So again. You are convinced that people are going to blow all their money on an extravagent lifestyle just so that the government will send them a check for $1,500 every month once they're 68?

You really believe that that's the way most people want to prepare for their old age?

Well, why save for retirement if the government penalizes you for doing so? Most would make sure they fall under the means test. Except the rich. They'd hire accountants to hide their "liquid" assets. Like OJ Simpson did to shelter his cash from Nicole Kidman's family.

Raising the cap would just encourage more small businesses and self-employed folks to call it quits; and, it would also encourage more offshoring of jobs to avoid paying social security at all.

Well, why save for retirement if the government penalizes you for doing so? Most would make sure they fall under the means test.

So most people are going to impoverish themselves to ensure that they will get a $1500 check every month upon retirement.

Raising the cap would just encourage more small businesses and self-employed folks to call it quits..

And do what to make a living?

No brainer. Get the pool. Get the Lexus. Spend it all. The government's got your back.

You tend to forget that we're the largest debtor nation, ever. People ARE getting it all, courtesy of China and Japan.

You current analysis, like your belief the market is the economy, is wrong.

Why don't you ever mention the $835 billion in corporate welfare last year, and the $1 trillion in corporate welfare for this year?

Muckdog: If I have a business that makes me 80k a year after expenses and I find a way to increase my net to 150-200k a year, paying the additional money to Social Security is not going to discourage me. Nor would the other slight increases in my tax rates.

But rlprather, why would you want to make so much money and throw away the $18000 a year the government will give you?

Why?

For the love of God!!!

Whyyyyyyyyyyy?????