Now that's ridiculous --

You state ABORTION/DEATH are a natural part of life.

How is the MURDER of the UNBORN a NATURAL part of Life!!

Roof, your day pass from the asylum had been been rejected. You are to return immediately to the hospital for your 4:00 shock treatment.

Roof,

If things were to happen naturally, she would have died 15 years ago. And we think that allowing her to die is playing God?

Her husband has the legal power and right to make the decision to have to tube removed. Every court that has had any contact with the case has reaaffirmed this fact. Her parents have said that even if she had a written living will that stated that she would want the tube removed, they would still go to court to fight its removal.

So not only do we adults have to worry about our government interfering/controling us, but now it is okay for our parents to as well? And we wonder why we as a society act so childish. And I thought the republicans are all about PERSONAL responsibility.

I guess there are some decisions that we aren't "mature" enough to make. Thank God we have such a wonderful governemnt to take care of us.

I have thought about this case a lot this week. It has kept me up a lot... I think if she had a living will saying she would not like a feeding tube for any reason, I know the majority of what gets labeled "the religious right" would agree that the tube should be removed. I know that's how I feel, and I probably fall into that category. I'm an evangelical Christian anyway, a classification that is consistently demonized on this board.

What makes this case so emotional, at least for me personally, comes down to 2 points. These aren't my views on the legal issues, just my views based on my impressions of the situation.

1. Terri doesn't have a living will and all we have is her husband's word to go on. I don't want to ban people from making living wills to carry out their wishes, and I don't think the vast majority of people wanting the feeding put back in feel that way. The guy whose word we have to go on seems shady, appears to have mixed motives, and allowed her to have the feeding tube in for 7 years before saying she wouldn't want it in the first place. That's the key issue I think. Contrary to the prof's post above, I think for the most part both sides sees it as Terri's decision. There is just no living will to tell us what she would want.

2. There are credible doctors that think she is not in a PVS. Some of these doctors have examined Terri personally. I heard that the latest is a doctor from some Mayo clinic that examined her on March 1st. It does seem weird to me though, that he is just now issuing the affidavit...

Anyway, that's my take. I hope that makes sense. Just kind of my stream of consciousness... I guess the one good thing coming out of this is a lot more people are getting living wills done...

No, no, no...now, THURSDAY, today!!! Jeb Bush vows to TAKE TERRY OUT himself! As in taking custody of her and what? Can you imagine Jeb taking Terry out of the hospice, folding her into his limo, driving her to the Gov's Manse and have his drugged, addled wife sit vigil over her? "You sit there and keep that tube in her, hon...DO AS I TELL YOU woman, while I go call Bubba--he'll be so impressed! This is our ticket to the White House in 2008"!

Why worry about shit like this anymore. Especially when the news today affects my family. The DRAFT is moving in...the volunteer military is CLOSE to breaking according to news I heard on Pacifica radio. My twenty-year old kid may be called up. Maybe that's fake news again. Or maybe not. I'm taking her to a rock concert tonight, buy her a T shirt too. Your families will be affected too, fellow LC'ers!!

Tex,
You should read the GAL report. The GAL was appointed by Jeb to be an impartial guardian.

It wasn't only the husband who said she wouldn't want to be on life support. There were several other witnesses. The court is not taking Michael's word alone. Did you know that Terri's parents encourage Michael to start dating? Did you know that Terri's parents even met his girlfriends? Did you know that the Schindlers even took Terri home over ten years ago and were not able to care for her even with Michael's help? Did you know that Michael went back to school to become a nurse specifically so he could help Terri? Did you know that the Schindlers said that even if Terri had stated in a living will that she didn't want a feeding tube the Schindlers would still be fighting to keep her on life support?

As far as the MD's go, the ones who have dealt with her on a day to day basis have said that she has PVS and the other MD's who have stated differently just showed up for a few minutes to observe her. As a matter of fact, I understand that one of the people who claimed to be an MD was a herbologist. A herbologist is qualified to state whether someone is in a state of PVS?

The guy whose word we have to go on seems shady, appears to have mixed motives, and allowed her to have the feeding tube in for 7 years before saying she wouldn't want it in the first place. That's the key issue I think.

The man made every attempt for several years to see if his wife could be rehabilitated. That's why he didn't seek to let her die right away. What evidence do you have that he is shady? At a point he realized that she was in fact gone and decided to honor what he believes to be her wish to be let go. Her parents have unfortunately not reached this point yet. He, however, as her spouse is the legal custodian. Funny how the sanctity of marriage went right out the window on this one. It amazes me that people with such a religious outlook assume that Michael Schiavo's first instinct should have been to let his wife die, not to try and do everything to heal her. It took him years to prepare himself to let her go. Even if he knew from day one that she would not have wanted to live this way his love for her and his desire to have her back could have led him to act contrary to what he knew she would want. Why is that so hard to understand?

I heard that the latest is a doctor from some Mayo clinic that examined her on March 1st.

You mistate the facts. The doctor presented by Jeb Bush, who should be impeached in my view, DID NOT examine her. He OBSERVED her and reviewed her records. Big difference. Get your facts straight.

"Most Americans know that a life that simulates consciousness while missing the human soul does not define "a culture of life". Rather it glorifies a "culture of the material" and it defames what it means to be human."

Oooooh, that's good. You get the Harper Lee award of the week.

How is the MURDER of the UNBORN a NATURAL part of Life!!

Posted by ROOF at March 24, 2005 03:32 AM

Because it's not murdering an unborn, it's removing a fetus from a uterus. How is removing a defective organ and/or transplanting another from a donor a natural part of life?

Smarter religiously insane ditto monkeys, please...

If Republicans are so concerned about the life of a fetus let them storm the damn honky-tonks of America and protest all the pregnant white trash lounge lizards sucking on cigarettes and swilling beer.

Here’s a bit of the good Dr. Cheshire’s diagnosis of Terri Schiavo;

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior," he wrote, "yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

Also from the NYTimes story;

Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"

And from a man who actually did examine her;

Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, "I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain."

As I said previously, Jeb Bush should be impeached.

This is not fucking American Idol!

Everyone in America doesn't get to put their two cents in on this. It doesn't make a God damn difference what people feel when they watch a video of her or what they feel when they walk in the room. The law has been followed. The case has been decided. Enough is enough.

Mary,

I have one point of disagreement with your post. You say:
"They've made death an enemy rather than a natural part of life."

I think we need to be very careful not to fall for their spin here. They have not made death an enemy. They personally don't care about death, when it happens in millions of other cases. They have made "death" in a few cases an opportunistic issue.

The whole claim that people who are out to help Terri Schiavo are "pro-life" is laughable because if they really were they would have run a crusade to save the lives of all such people (and others who are in slightly different situations) across the country and *found a way to pay for such care*. The fact that they could care less about that and more about tax cuts and supporting a party (GOP) that has been doing everything it can to drive the poor or middle class deeper into the ground, indicates what the reality is.

I'm an evangelical Christian

What does this have to do with anything? Are you stating that you have some moral superiority allowing you to make an uninformed decision about this issue? Why does "being an evangelical" always have to equate to an inability to search for and contetxualize the the facts of any situation? I even supplied you a link to the facts, and it's obvious you are unwilling to inform yourself about the issue. Rather, you want to blather on about your "feelings" as they relate to a situation you are bound and determined to know nothing about. And what compounds the whole issue is you live in and support a state where law mandates the removal of feeding tubes based on the ability to pay, regardless of what the parents or spouses desire. You, as most evalgelicals, are a hypocrite.

1. Terri doesn't have a living will and all we have is her husband's word to go on.

What about the 7 other witnesses that provided testimony in court?

The guy whose word we have to go on seems shady,

Unless you bother to know the facts. Pray to your gods that your spouse is as loyal.

allowed her to have the feeding tube in for 7

Because it took him that long to acknowledge there was nothing that could be done, and only after extensive attempts at rehabilitation.

2. There are credible doctors

And none of these "credible doctors" have seen her in person. And when these "credible" doctors testified in court, the court found their assertions to be uninformed.

Why does being an evangelical mandate you to be uninformed and rely on vague innuendo and outright lies to support that you have some heightened moral imperative to protect this woman? Don't be surprised if when you get the come to jesus call he turns his back on you. You can't seem to understand that those you follow in this situation are truly the spawn of the devil.

You state ABORTION/DEATH are a natural part of life.

ROOFie, you finally make a little sense.

Spontaneous abortion IS a natural fact of life. The majority of preganancies end in spontaneous abortions (what the uninformed call a miscarriage). For a variety of reasons the little mass of cells exits the womans body, often without her knowing she was pregnant in the first place. And death? Why yes, it too is natural. We all get to go there, unless you're Terri Schiavo, who no doubt will be wheeled around churches with tubes and shit sticking out of here body for some time to come.

Now we could discuss all the unintended causes of spontaneous abortion, but you would feel bad if you had to confront that the neo-con policies you support put 100s of millions, possibly 10s of billions, of baby blood stains on your hands. Sleep well, baby killer. You earned it.

muckcat,
thanks for setting me straight on the doc. I said "i heard" but I guess that's how rumors keep going. I just heard it on a talk radio show on the way into work.

phidipides,
go back and read my post again. I was not saying I had a corner on bioethics because of my religious beliefs. I was just saying that most evangelicals who want Terri's tube back in now do not want to force feed everyone in a PVS against their wishes.

I think most evangelicals want living wills fulfilled. Some from the left have tried to characterized all evangelicals as wanting to keep people alive against their wishes. I believe that characterization is wrong. THAT was my point. I am an evangelical and know a lot of other evangelicals. I thought identifying my background was important in being able to make my assertion.

Based on your previous posts, I recognize you have a preconception about Christians that you want to reinforce, but please try to read slowly...

Also, in response to the American Idol comment. This board is supposed to be a place to vent your opinion or so I thought. This is not a voting booth for what should happen in the world, just a forum for discussion. If my opinions are unwelcome, please someone from TLC (Mary, Steve, etc.) tell me to leave and I'll never post here again.

Also, laws, courts, etc shouldn't be held up to a level where they can't be disagreed with. I know a lot on here disagreed with Gore v Bush and that was the supreme court. Disagreement shouldn't be kept silent. It should be voiced.

Thanks to those that offered intelligent rebuttals to my points. I honestly appreciate it. I haven't had time today to researchj those points to respond to them, but I plan to... thanks!

What has Colin Powell been up to?

hahahahahahahahahah

And remember to check out my blog if you want to take a break from Shaivo, Rove and Bush, because I've been putting in some extra effort to be funny lately. Hit and miss, as always. But what the heck.

Washington-Louisville tip off in 10 minutes!

Eh. Mostly miss on the jokes as I re-read my blog. Seemed funny at the time. Oh well.

Do read the colin powell link, though. The folks at the onion ARE funny...

I recognize you have a preconception about Christians that you want to reinforce, but please try to read slowly...

Gosh. With all alacrity, I thought I was helping you out. Just think, you can sit around with your fundamentalist buds and talk about how christians are discriminated against in our society. It'll be a great pity party for you.

I was just saying that most evangelicals who want Terri's tube back in now do not want to force feed everyone in a PVS against their wishes.

----You based this on:

1. The guy whose word we have to go on seems shady, appears to have mixed motives,

----and----

2. There are credible doctors that think she is not in a PVS.

----and you conclude----

haven't had time today to researchj those points to respond to them,

Which tells me you are waiting to hear the latest line from some evangelical fundamentalist right or git commentator on TV or Radio. You will respond by defaming Michael Schiavo, or saying we don't know her real condition. You are no more interested in facts than Terri Schiavo is interested in her surroundings.

Gosh. With all alacrity, I thought I was helping you out. Just think, you can sit around with your fundamentalist buds and talk about how christians are discriminated against in our society. It'll be a great pity party for you.

How old are you anyway? 11? Based on this childish response, I'm guessing 13 tops...

Which tells me you are waiting to hear the latest line from some evangelical fundamentalist right or git commentator on TV or Radio. You will respond by defaming Michael Schiavo, or saying we don't know her real condition. You are no more interested in facts than Terri Schiavo is interested in her surroundings.

No. It should tell you that I have a real job that I do real work at...

Tex,

The American Idol comment was directed at the quack doctor who Jeb Bush dredged up in his latest blatant office abusing, impeachment deserving attempt to subvert a legitimate judicial decision that has been reaffirmed over and over and over.

Not at you sweetheart.

LIBERALS

THE PARTY OF DEATH!!!

No wonder yuor party can't win any elections!!!

'PUBS

THE PARTY OF UN-VIABLE 'LIFE'

NO WONDER YOUR PARTY HAS TO TO STEAL ELECTIONS!!!!!