Fuck Bush!!!!!

Don't you know..? Its Clinton's fault..!!!

This is why I favor lifting the $90,000 cap on SS, leaving the tax rate the same and turning SS in a full pension system.

...and b4 anyone makes the accusation...yes, I am a socialist.

Move to France if you don't like it. The corporations and the bushies know what is best for us!

Explain to me please, what in the hell government should do about any of this. So the lady had to give up her cell phone...OH NO! I'll tell you one thing that is not the answer...Depending on S.S. as your only income for retirement. We all have crap that we can do without...Do we really need SUV's, instead of opting for a gasoline efficient car?

The people need to learn to be wise with their money...and quit expecting somebody else to be wise for you.

some weeks ago I suggested changing the name of the blog to the Trollcoaster because of the flurry of troll comment/b.s. Now your using the trolls in the post Heading.....uh, how about ignoring the trolls (yes, I've fallen several times lately). Lets turn our attention to impeaching Bush for Lying to get us into War, and telling the country that the United States won't honor it's Trust Funds.

My wife works just for the benefits. Her net is about 45% of her after tax pay.

There was a poll published once that said 19% of the people were depending on winning the lottery for their retirement. In other news, there's an audio clip where one of the hand-picked supporters at Bush's SS "forums" says she's working three jobs. Bush replies that's wonderful, that's the American way! Democrats should use this in ads--vote Republican to have three marginal jobs and barely make ends meet, or vote Democratic to have one good job.

Muckdope's parody comment brings this question to mind:

Does anyone know of a scholarly thesis on the link between Christian belief that the priest/minister/pope/reverend acts in their best interest, and their similar blind allegiance to the current authoritarian Father State (as opposed to the Democratic “Mommy State”)?

The hard-core Christians I know scratch their heads at what is going on, but then stop their bewilderment with the comment -

"But the Bush Administration must have our best interests in mind."

They are kinda like a kid being whipped by their Dad, but accepting it as all part of having a strong, loving parent.

A very good post. You have a way of building a compelling picture by bringing seemingly disparate slices of information together in a way that tells a story.

When did being a Christian or any person of faith for that matter, become such a bad thing. Are you saying that the Christians are evil?

Please Explain

Do you feel like you are yelling alone in the dark too? Im feeling a little like a mushroom; in the dark and being fed bullshit by those "in charge" Personally, I wouldnt fuck Bush with someone else's vagina, though I get the sentiment.

huh? wha? Bigdog is a real troll, who does the FAUXNEWS twisting things around thang so I won't answer him.

But I will ask:

Why does Bigdog hate America?

(psssst - I am a Christian and I am not eeevile, Bigdope.)

What's to spin? Blame the lack of retirement planning. Financial planners often recommend that everyone saves at least 10% of their income towards retirement. If people don't do this, then they really only have themselves to blame later on in life.

The answer isn't "higher taxes" or "more government programs."

And the example of the 46-yr old teachers aid? I had to laugh. What kind of career is that for a 46-yr old? Sounds like poor career planning, too. Maybe she should be going to night school to upgrade her skills and try to get a better job, instead of blaming everyone else.

when is that fucker bush going to stop blamimg "bad intelligence" for the mess in Iraq, take responsibility and just admit it and say "I lied! fuck you America, I just lied. What the fuck are you going to do about it!"

Hey:

I'm getting blocked with a:

Your comment was denied for questionable content.

What's up?

Does anyone know of a scholarly thesis on the link between Christian belief that the priest/minister/pope/reverend acts in their best interest, and their similar blind allegiance to the current authoritarian Father State (as opposed to the Democratic Mommy State

If you're going to find it it will be in the "Morality" literature. Do a search for those using the DIT scale. If you use "Mommy State" no one will know what you mean. You need to phrase it in other social terms. You might actually look at Neo-cons/republi-cons = unrestained business and restrained personal freedoms and Democrats = restrained business and personal freedoms. That makes more sense and is fact based.

All those workers in Alabama, Mississippi, New Mexico, Missouri, South Carolina, West Virginia, should save at least ten percent of their wages for retirement and be going to night school instead of taking that other job, sleeping, and such wasteful stuff.

Explain to me please, what in the hell government should do about any of this.

Why, one thing that comes to mind is taxing people at a rate that ends the deficits this pack of neo-con gits is living on, and leaving you as a lovely leagacy of their stupidity.

The old hippies were kinda goofy, incapable of thinking. We used to say the sat around smelling their own and each others passed gas. Muck, you should open a couple windows.

Depending on S.S. as your only income for retirement.

You see, the thesis is that people don't get enough money to live on, let alone invest.

When did being a Christian or any person of faith for that matter, become such a bad thing.

Jim Jones? Spanish inquisition? Witch trials? Crusades? Scopes Monkey Trial? Fundamentalist dogma? When you think I need to believe as you do in general. When you think you're superior for believing as you do.

Oh, okay muck, so we can summarize your societal anti-poverty program for the elderly as 'screw everyone who made stupid choices with their money when they were younger, and screw anyone who chose to pursue a low-income career path'

So, how does knowing whom to blame help us address the problem of wide-spread poverty amongst the elderly? Note that social security has been doing a truly impressive job of largely eliminating this problem.

As far as I can tell the conservative argument is that it is too expensive to take care of the elderly, so to hell with them.

Finally, what is your plan for people who have been putting aside 10% of their earnings, but still don't have enough money to live on? You seem to gloss over the fact that saving and investing is no guarantee of hitting specific financial targets.

I think the first plan of attack should be teaching everyone to save 10% of their income, and investing for the longterm in a diversified portfolio. That'd pretty much solve the problem for them. They wouldn't have to worry about their retirement. Even if one starts out today making $30K, that'd be $3000 a year in savings. Index that savings rate to the CPI and compound the growth at 10%, and that's quite a nest egg at 67yrs old.

For those who are 65 and find that they don't have enough money, there are federal programs to help them out. But they can't expect to live in a beachfront house and drive a Lexus while a taxpayer foots the bill. It'll be tough. If they're house-rich and cash poor, they can consider a reverse mortgage. That'll help.

For those who make career choices that don't pay a lot of money, they can't expect to live in a beachfront house and drive a Lexus, either. They have to rachet down their expectations that while they may struggle financially their whole lives, at least they'll get some value out of their career choices. Money isn't everything.

yeah - look how I made all those good bidness deals! I'm set for my retirement - fuck you!

Jim Jones? Spanish inquisition? Witch trials? Crusades? Scopes Monkey Trial?

No matter how hard you look into any subject you can find bad examples of any faith. But what about the millions of faithful (not just christians) who devoted their lives to making the world a better place. I would have to believe that even you can admit that their has been some great people of faith in the past 2000 years that have worked constantly to try and improve all of humankind.

$30,000 starting pay? And how many of the new jobs you keep touting as a great economy pay this? No averaging, I'm talking specific jobs.

Ken Melvin,
fuck you on attacking hippies. the world would be a much better place with many more hippies.

I would have to believe that even you can admit that their has been some great people of faith in the past 2000 years that have worked constantly to try and improve all of humankind.

I believe that if you take all of the good done in the name of the religion over the last 2000 years, and set it against all of the bad, you will find that far more bad has been done. The toll in wars, torture, etc. greatly outweighs the good works. Not to mention the role in preserving corrupt status quos that have created much of the poverty which good people then must work to alleviate.

I don't mean that as a negative statement towards individuals who act out of faith. I mean it as a condemnation of powerful religious figures who have time and again abused their power to create strife.

I have a very simple rule for judging anything dealing with religion: if it serves to bring people together it is good. If it serves to drive them apart it is bad.

Any religious belief which insists that anyone not adhering to a particular worldview is an evil person who needs to be eliminated is a bad thing.

Muck, I'm not talking about people who can afford to drive a Lexus or have a beachfront home. I'm talking about people who drive used cars because they can never afford to buy new. People who rent because they can't afford to buy. People who have to choose between rent, food, or medicine. The large and growing lower classes. The working poor. You are apparently comfortable leaving them in poverty.

These people already have lowered expectations. The problem is that they face very grim prospects as they get too old to work fulltime.

In the meantime, we keep giving more and more tax cuts to enormously wealthy people who don't need more money.

Starting salaries for college grads.

And if you don't want to go to college, you'll probably make less. I don't think folks serving pancakes at IHOP for 50 years should plan on having a lucrative retirements, beachfront homes, and a Lexus in every garage. Although even if that person saves 10% of their earnings over their career, they'll still have quite a bit of money.

Daniel, those folks need to save at least 10% of every paycheck and put it in the Total Stock Market Index Fund over their entire working career. Problem solved.

If they don't do that, then yes, retirement won't be that comfortable.

It's all about making choices.

people who cling to the tired old concept of Reagan's cadillac welfare mothers are so hopelessly deluded that there's no sense in even having a sensible debate on the subject. the guiding principle is not that people are drixing a lexus and living in beachfront homes, the concept is that some folks have to choose between food and healthcare. that is not a choice, that is a serious problem. and going back to school, and incurring additional costs is not a fair or acceptible short term answer. it's a smartass remark from someone who honestly couldn't care less. this is not a social darwinist society, and when one group does not succeed in this country, it hurts all of us.

Muck, better open that window.

mucky,
If millions of Americans followed your advise they would not be able to eat because that 10% you mentioned would be needed for food. But there is a bright side - with these millions of people having inadequate diets, they are likely to die younger and therefore will not need retirement money. Mucky, you are brilliant! well done!

It is utterly amazing to me how many obviously middle class Americans hate fellow middle class people so much, that they want to destroy the very bedrock upon which the class was created (i.e fair labor laws, SS, etc.). This is flat out anti-Americanism, plain and simple.

Anyone else having a problem posting?

I would have to believe that even you can admit that their has been some great people of faith in the past 2000 years that have worked constantly to try and improve all of humankind./i>

Mother Teresa?

Hitler used christianity faithfully.

Pay yourself first. 10% deferred before it hits your bank account. Avoid credit card debt. Pay cash for everything. Etc. Tons of books out there imploring folks to do these common sense things. It really has nothing to do with fascism or socialism or anyism. It's just common sense planning and taking responsibility for your life rather than leaving it up to chance.

"Leaving it up to chance" is a lousy planning strategy. I know casinos and state lotteries make a ton off folks with that mindset, though.

If you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, or 50s, and not following Common Sense 101, the outcome is fairly predictable.

Pay yourself first.

Jimmy Swaggert?

Jim Baker?

Can anyone give me a clue what to do so I can get a post to work? I'm stuck to saying shit about anything, and I'm annoyed with trying to figure out what is occurring.

Phidip- I am too- what the hell is going on?

Pay yourself first.

If your making 35K a year with a family, what magic occurs to make that happen?

shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker tits

now THAT'S questionable content- why can I post this and not something that actually HAS VALUE?!?!?!?!

Money isn't everything.

I bet you vomitted when you said this. With 20,000 companies left with benefit plans (out of the 180,000 in 1985) you are correct.

Thorndike

Just checking to see of this blocking the post

Steve? Pess? Anyone? Beuller??

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!? Why are you blocking us?!?!

Thorndike, Einstein, Dorthera Dix, Camus, Willhelm Wundt, William James, Founding Fathers

Still trying to see what's fucking me up here.

Thank you Marty. I thought I had gone fucking cornhole batshit nuts.

Maybe it only blocks the word it? It could be. How would we ever know about it?

It appears to me that Steve has set a limit to the SIZE/LENGTH of comments. Anything over a certain size is "blocked due to questionable content."

Just a guess, but certainly my earlier post is about as questionable as it gets.

Has someone sneaked in and taken over Steve's brain thereby blocking our ability to speak freely and at length here?!

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?!?

This is really starting to PISS ME OFF!

I make 31,000 a year with a stay at home wife and two children. We are still able to put $150 a month into a Roth IRA as well as my teacher pension plan. It's not impossible, you just need to use common sense.

and not following Common Sense 101

How can you sit there a spew this vile bullshit with the economic conditions people are being forced to live in. Only the top 20% are doing well in this economy. The rest are treading water or going under.

Has someone sneaked in and taken over Steve's brain thereby blocking our ability to speak freely and at length here?!

Patriot Act III

Hitler? Hitler? Hitler was into the Ocult, not christianity.

ALL

There is no blocking going on that I am aware of. There are times when so many are trying to enter comments someone gets bumped out of the queue. When you aren't getting through quickly, you'll have to be patient until it passes, which can take a few minutes. That would be a good time to pick up Thorndike and try to find some words that aren't scatological in nature and force me to do a lot of editing!!!!!

(No, as of this comment I have not edited anyone - but I'm thinking about it!!!)

Marty. et. al-

No one is being blocked here. I don't have the time to moderate or the intention to set limits here, as you can see from the troll comments elsewhere on the blog. There must be a technical reason for the difficulties, but as Pessimist says, no one is being blocked.

When I need to borrow $$$$ to go back to school, would I be better off to take out student loans, or borrow from my 401k, and "pay myself back"? Serious question. Thanks

Last comment was mine and I kept getting that error so I experimented and was able to post when I took out: 4 periods in a row

K thanks for the response Steve- I appreciate you getting back to me/us. Are you SURE there isn't something strange going on? I work in I.T. and it seems like you've got a filter set up that's malfunctioning.

In any event, this is what I've been TRYING to post:
My god muck, you even SOUND like the chimp- "oh, all you have to do is sacrifice healthcare or rent or food or any type of entertainment, and PRESTO! PROBLEM SOLVED!!" I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this point. It's always the same old shit with you. Simple black and white answers, no reality or real life involved- typical GOP stooge.

As if people are just born with that programmed into their heads. Yea, kids of today walk around going "I better save 10% of my income now, because blah blah blah." Right. Did YOU start doing this when you were a kid? I think not. And if you DID, you had smart parents, or you were an Alex Keaton-type dork who followed the stock market in high school and wore a suit jacket while the rest of us were out playing sports, drinking and chasing girls- you know, normal adolescent things people do.

I make well above average income, ($60,000+) I am a college graduate and ex-military service member- yet the last two jobs I've had were only 6 month 'term/contract' positions that did not provide benefits of any kind- nor can I afford them. I do not have a retirement plan and am approaching one year without health coverage. I'm here to tell you that this is in part because I made some poor choices, but mostly because this is indicative of where this country is heading right now. My situation is becoming typical, even among the well educated and gainfully employed like myself.

Face reality, will you muck? Stop being such a deluded idiot- we'll all be happier.

For the record, I agreed with T2 back then, and I agree now- WHY are we now posting on this blog playing directly to an absolute dolt like muckdick? Very nice post Pess, but please don't title future posts in this manner, ok? Thanks in advance.

AH HA!!! That's it. THANK YOU SHARON!! Steve, for whatever reason (this comments section at least) is not accepting posts that have multiple periods in a row. While I will admit that some of the people who post here use the questionable technique of using periods incessantly instead of 'normal human' English grammar, I hardly think it qualifies as "questionable content."

Might want to take a look at the web server. Just a thought.

Thanks again! You guys rock!

Muck, I am sure all those people at enron and Worldcom should have planned ther retirement better also!

On a side note- I noticed that a few weeks back, Duckman GR posted here asking for phidipides email address because he thought "anyone that can post feedback that good and at that volume deserves to be on our blogroll." Or something similar to that anyway.

Did anything ever come of this? Don't mean to pump up your ego phidip- but I sincerely agree with Duckman: you're one of the most well-spoken, accurate and poignant posters on this blog. I would LOVE to see original material from you!!

If you are getting a message about being blocked for questionable content, please send me an email with the content and I'll try to figure out what rule mt-blacklist is using to make that assessment. (Unfortunately, sometimes the rules used by mt-blacklist to stop the spam can be too inclusive.)

mary- see my post above

marty

I make 31,000 a year with a stay at home wife and two children. We are still able to put $150 a month into a Roth IRA as well as my teacher pension plan. It's not impossible, you just need to use common sense.

In what part of the country do you make 31,000. In the New York metro area that's hand to mouth.

I've found the problem with the mt-blacklist item. Things should be back to normal now.

Re: the Christian concept that the government has our best interests in mind:

Blame it on Paul. Romans 13.1-7:

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Anyone else wonder if DeLay's threatening comments directed at the Schiavo judges were simple end-times belief comments? The time when judges will have to answer for what they have done is the Rapture....no direct violence necessary, just try to hasten the apocalypse.

If your making 35K a year with a family, what magic occurs to make that happen?

It's called "discipline." And if you're making $35K with a family, you may need to get a second job, go to night school to help change career paths, etc.

Goose demonstrates "comprehension issues" when he says I am sure all those people at enron and Worldcom should have planned ther retirement better also! I stated in my previous comment that I think the first plan of attack should be teaching everyone to save 10% of their income, and investing for the longterm in a diversified portfolio. That'd pretty much solve the problem for them.

Go to dictionary.com and look up "diversified" if you haven't seen that word used in a sentence before.

For the anon poster, of course I started saving at an early age. I read a lot of books on investing. I looked at the generations ahead of me, and who was successful vs. who wasn't. I followed the path of those who were successful.

You still have an IRA you can contribute to, if nothing else. And after tax, you can always go into a tax friendly index fund.

There is no excuse for not saving at least 10%. Just do it.

And 10% is the starting point. Build on that.

I think that the resident trolls when they are respectful perform a very useful purpose here at the Left Coaster. For instance, both little dog and muck are lining up Repug talking points for our pleasure and demolition.

This thread is a perfect example. Our illustious commentator Pessimist provides ample evidence that the middle and lower classes are sliding backwards economically and that loss of overpriced health insurance is drifting up into the middle class. The signs are becoming unmistakable.

Our resident trolls tell us that the economy is doing just fine, signs of economic backsliding are just illusory or anecdotal and that those who are complaining just need to tighten their belts and everything will be fine. They are just poor financial planners and all of their problems are just the result of bad decision making on their part, that is all. Nothing to see here, just move along.

The Republican oligarchs who are busy pushing the middle and lower classes down that economic slope depend on these sorts of arguments to keep all of the middle class frogs ignorant of the slow economic boil going on around them. It is much easier to pick their pockets with tax law and SS "reform" that way.

The more experience that we liberals have refuting these sort of arguments in environments like this blog, the better off we will be dealing with Republicans in broader arean of public opinion.

An IRA? Really? Do you know something about my finances that I don't?!?!

I'm heavily in debt because of the 'poor choice' I made in marrying my ex wife, who was an absolutely HORRIBLE money manager, and now I find myself 5 figures in debt, and find the investment I had started in my 20's completely depleted. So, even IF you do what you advocate muck- it's not as simple as "problem solved." Sure, the advice you give is smart, but it's FAR from a fix all. Right now, the reason I am broke is that I am in the process of paying off my debt, and cannot afford health insurance, et all, and am UNWILLING (although now the GOP (and some Dems) has made it nearly impossible for me to do so) to file for bankruptcy- I WILL NOT do this.

Sometimes I enjoy your positive outlook on life muck, where it falls short for me is something called REALITY. Others regularly live in it, and to this day I cannot understand how such a well-spoken and obviously educated person such as you does not.

Sorry for posting anon- I was too busy here at work and bouncing back and forth trying to figure out why I kept getting blocked.

Thank you for fixing it Mary!

The signs are becoming unmistakable.
Our resident trolls tell us that the economy is doing just fine, signs of economic backsliding are just illusory or anecdotal and that those who are complaining just need to tighten their belts and everything will be fine. They are just poor financial planners and all of their problems are just the result of bad decision making on their part, that is all. Nothing to see here, just move along.

AMEN GROWTH FACTOR!!! AMEN- how true you speak my friend! (insert yoda imitation here- sorry, just getting into the spirit with Ep III coming up, lets hope it doesn't SUCK as bad as the other two!)

Barbara,

It is the Cleveland, Ohio. The bottom line is that my wife and I are careful with our money. We buy things of necessity and rarely splurge on our wants. I'm a second year teacher, and believe it or not I make above the National Average for teachers.

All of this on top of student loans, a car payment, a house payment, and Gasoline. I believe it is my responsibility to make sure I spend my money wisely...there are very few of us left in the country.

I'm willing to bet that 90% of the students where I teach have Cell Phones (Probably Higher) yet 43% of the student population recieves Free Lunches. This is where the promlem lies.

Oh, and Muck, what about the problem that the message about savings is completely drowned out in the cultural noise (blasting at a volume of 11) telling people to buy, Buy, BUY!!!!!

We educate people from a really young age that the major role they are to play in our society is that of 'consumer.' Shocking when they respond by spending too much.

This isn't a common sense thing. You are still trying to sell the now debunked myth of individuals as rational economic actors. It just doesn't hold up in the face of the barrage of modern marketing.

Now, if you are proposing eliminating the absurd idea that corporations have a right to free speech, and following that up with major restrictions on marketing, I'm all for it.
Then we could see how badly all of those highly-paid ad execs have been planning for their retirements.

I would LOVE to see original material from you!!

Thanks Marty, that's really kind.

I post in frustration both at the administration and its moron supporters. I'm not a jounalist nor have any training at the craft. To be honest, I would be a little over my head.

There is no excuse for not saving at least 10%. Just do it.

How would you expect people to do that on, say, minimum wage? I still question how the upper 20% are gaining and the lower 80% are losing, and you expect everyone to "just save 10%" to be operationalized when we're the greatest debtor nation ever, in hock to our eyeballs? You make it sound like a character flaw rather than economic reality for these people.

Way back when I was a kid my dad had a middle class government job. My mother was a housewife. He had a new car every two years, my mother every four years. They paid their home off in 10 years, plus saved for the complete college needs of 3 kids and socked away a ton for retirement. My existence then was not frugal. Indeed, it was commonplace.

Tell me who is doing this now and how much it takes to do it? There has been a sea change in the economic climate and your only solution is to tell people to get more jobs or get more training for jobs that largely don't exist. Or if the jobs do exist, when these people flood into markets that paid well you see wages drop because of over supply.

The issue is that failed government policies are driving down the living standard in the United States. Well, not for the top 20%. I understand the sales of homes over $1 million increased five-fold since the idiot son came to office.

More power to you, bigdog. But your 31,000 is worth more in cleveland than in the ny metro area.

Do you know something about my finances that I don't?!?!

No, Marty, but anyone with income can open an IRA. And if you have no plan offered by your employer, it may even be deductable. Check with your CPA.

Growth Factor, you silly goose. The problem is, that you don't really refute anything. You just counter that (paraphrasing) "it's not fair that we don't get all things provided to us, through no effort of our own." Not a convincing counterpoint, GF.

I'm not sure where to start with Daniel's reply. Of course companies are marketing and selling us stuff. That's what they do. But we have to make rational decisions. And we have to pass rationality down to the next generation.

But people are free to choose. Not everyone wants to retire. So, I'm not proposing a mandatory savings. Just common sense for folks who would like to retire at some point.

In some areas of the country $31k, though it implies living on less than $1400/mo including housing, is considered above average and a decent living. It also implies a community where most are quite poor. So, for some, it seems that it is it a matter of being better off than most of your neighbors? The real sin is that in America, this shining beacon, many, many work very hard for very little, served their country and send their young off to serve, i.e.,they have really very poor and have sorry lives. Not a small number, it may include one- hird or more of the population.

Muck, explain how after you lose all your 401k money and loose your salary how do you pur 10% of your income into an account. YOU DO HAVE ANY INCOME MORON!!!!!!

Hey, who un-banned Phidip??? hahahahahah.

There has been a sea change in the economic climate

Yes, indeed. There has been a sea change in the economic climate. Not everyone can save 10% when they have the lease payments on the SUV and Lexus every month, the credit card bill to Best Buy to pay for the Plasma TV and surround sound system, not to mention the new entertainment center in the master bedroom, the new media PC for Junior, and the backyard landscaping. Heck, after folks are done paying the gardener, daycare, and all these other essentials, it's hard to save 10%. Not like the good ol' days.

Goose1! First of all, excellent use of the English language. I like to butcher it every once and awhile myself. But you've raised the bar, mah frend. Well done!

It's a living language. I think that point is missed by a lot of folks.

One strategy I like to maximize one's savings rate is to start year one with a small amount. Then, every year one gets a raise, put the majority of the raise in the savings plan. I like to see at least 50% of the raise dedicated to savings, until the savings plan is maximized. If one can do more, that'd be great.

Check with your financial planner. I'm sure you can figure out a plan to get where you need to go.

Muckdog says:

But we have to make rational decisions.

But I already rejected this:

You are still trying to sell the now debunked myth of individuals as rational economic actors. It just doesn't hold up in the face of the barrage of modern marketing.

The point is that people are not, in general, going to make the best long-term decisions. This lack of planning is significantly worsened by scientific marketing. Then you throw in the rapid change of the economy in terms of types of jobs in existence, etc.

The conservative argument is that all of this volatility is healthy for the economy. The compassionate policy maker seeks out ways to mitigate the negative impact economic change has on ordinary people. The Republican lawmaker prefers chastising these people for not planning their lives around the possibility of the job they trained for (or, hell, held for thirty years) no longer existing. Then they tell these people that their bad economic state is their own fault. Too bad.

Muck, we've seen the society that you and your buddies are trying to recreate here. We saw it in Victorian England, and late nineteenth century New York. We are seeing it today in Los Angeles. It's ugly. It fails every possible test for a definition of a 'fair' society.

Muck, take the Rawls test: if you were going to be born into our society, and had no way of knowing beforehand where you would end up, would you be happy to trust to fate? Remember, you may not even end up white or male.

We were working towards a fairer society, Now we are seeing people like you working towards a less fair society. It really is that simple.

Ken,

My father told me that if I could show him someone that worked their ass off and made little money, then he could show me an idiot. He would always say that he see's one in the mirror everyday.

His point was that he made bad decisions when he was young, new they were bad decisions and then never did anything to change those decisions. For this he served in Vietnam, went to college on the GI bill, flunked out, because he did not want to do the work, and payed for it by working a tough job for little money.

I grew up poor, served in the military and basically did everything that (from my interpretation) you think is impossible. Hard work, dedication, and self-sacrifice will get you a long way in the U.S.

Hard work, dedication, and self-sacrifice will get you a long way in the U.S.

No bigdog, they can get you a long way. There is no guarantee at all that they will. And it is becoming harder and harder to convert hard work, dedication and self-sacrifice into success.

Daniel,

I don't understand? How do you figure. I think the problem is that too many people say they are working hard, but they are only fooling themselves. The problem is that people anymore seem to quit if at first they don't succeed. So we should all sit and feel sorry for those people. NO, get up and get going, don't quit, if you have a dream it is worthless if you decide not to atleast try and try and try to reach that dream.

I hate to sound like a motivational speaker, but it is the absolute truth. Go watch the movie Rudy, or October Sky...See what real hard work, dedication and self sacrifice are. (I know their movies but they are both incredibly accurate portrayals of the real life people)

Look out Muck,

Gooses are mean Mother F-ers.

The fact is that the lower 80% of Americans are sliding backwards economically as jobs are being sent overseas and the cost of things like health insurance and higher education are spiraling out of reach. This is the point that pessimist makes very clearly with substantial evidence backing him up. All of this is being directly and enthusiastically encouraged by the ruling oligarchs running the Republican party who are pocketing the difference.

The fact that you are trying so aggressively to sweep all of this under the rug makes me question your motives. Are you a paid Republican operative like Tacitus? It wouldn't surprise me. You are here an great deal. If you are in fact a normal Joe like the rest of us, then you really are shooting yourself in the foot with all of the water carrying you do for the already obscenely wealthy.

Either way, I am not impressed.

I love getting advice from a guy who think 100,000 new jobs are a good sign of economic growth. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"Check with your financial planner. I'm sure you can figure out a plan to get where you need to go."

Muck, you've got to be kidding me! If a person is pulling in $31,000/yr (or even double that) a financial planner would laugh them right out the door (or throw them out the window). Financial planner - sheesh. You do have some high falutin' ideas that are very low in reality.

The point is that people are not, in general, going to make the best long-term decisions.

It's not the Borg Collective. We're a society of individuals who have equal opportunity to take advantage of our economic system.

To those who learn and work hard go the spoils. That's the way it should be. Or else, nobody will learn or work hard.

Are you a paid Republican operative

I'm in the Decline to State party. No fliers. No phone calls. No mercy. bwaahhhahaa.

I hate to sound like a motivational speaker

Bigdog! Shallow Hal needs a gal!

Daniel always cracks me up. He assumes that everybody is born dumb, messed up, and unable to figure out how to make things right. I take the opposite point of view, that everybody is born with an open mind and willing to take risks to get ahead; then, for some, society comes along and says "check's in the mail" and the person figures out how to get the most while doing the least, and joins the Democrat party.

I agree with bigdog that there are too many folks who hang out at their job doing as little as possible, almost as if it were "Daycare for Adults."

a financial planner would laugh them right out the door

Well, I'd recommend a financial planner that didn't do that. Fee-based only, would be best. Or, just read John Bogle's Common Sense on Mutual Funds and figure it out for yourself.

It ain't rocket surgery.

HOOOOOOO... What a topic. Look at all these posts. You should have a "hundredth comment gets cheese toast" contest or something.

....so any thoughts on if I should borrow from my 401k to get a second (hopefully not useless) bachelor, and then master degrees? I want to tell all you folks that coming here conversing with obviously intelligent people is giving me the courage to do this, instead of waiting for the inevitable when my company goes belly up or my job gets outsourced; as it is they're trying to squeeze blood from this turnip (and no damn raise for 2 years in a row). But there won't be any 10% to sock away for a while....

Growth Factor, always blame the victim. It's part of the Republican script.

I concur with Marty that Phidipides should be added to the great writers on this Blog site. As Phidipides knows, I love his sense of humor. It has also been nice to disagree with someone (about religion), and have them willing to engage in an open and non-judgemental verbal intercourse. Trolls should take notice here.

The arrogance and ignorance of some people who like to dictate others to save what they haven't got and can't earn because of this horrendous Bush economy never ceases to amaze.

All the mucks of the world like to hire cheap help, buy their coffee in a shop that hires cheap help, hire an illegal nanny for cheap, eat in restaurants that hire cheap help, shop in stores that hire cheap help and sell stuff cheap, like for someone else to pay for schools, social security etc, get a high return on their investments, and tell us how smart they are. Muck, are you fenced in yet?

Mike, I'm not dictating to others what to save. I'm just saying that the results are guaranteed, no matter which route one chooses.

If one chooses to save nothing, because they can't afford to save, then they will have nothing when they retire.

Pretty straight forward.

If one chooses to save and invest at least 10% of their income, they will have something when they retire.

It's just free choice at work. Choose wisely.

muck, there's no guarantee's in life, just probabilities.

The coming crunch that the engorged US debt is going to inflict on our economy is not going to cooperate with your 10% solution. You sound like one of those Wall Street touts shilling this great stock, while selling the crap out of it short because it's a bigdog.

And a 10% rate of return, that's just fantasy.

so any thoughts on if I should borrow from my 401k to get a second (hopefully not useless) bachelor, and then master degrees?

Sharon. Why a second bachelors? Almost any bachelors will get you into most graduate programs. At most they would want you to take a few undergraduate credits to get up to speed in the area. What are you thinking of getting into?

See what financing options you have with the program you want to get into. I recommend you go for a doctorate. If you find the right program they'll pay you to be a research assistant, teaching assistant, or graduate teaching assistant. I'm aware of people making 20K a year straight cash, and getting tuition remission. Sometimes you can find masters level that will do the same. Pick wisely and your education is largely paid for.

Judith,

I appreciate your compassion. I've never minded disussing religion with you because you so apparently live by your convictions and have obviously put a lot of thought into your beliefs. You bring a lot of common sense to the discussions here.

When we have the next TLC annual convention the first round is on me.

Muck:

You continue to astound me. REALITY. REALITY. REALITY. Say it with me now, four syllables: reality. Try it on for size.

I truly hope you dig far enough in this comments section to read this, because you STILL continue to miss the point. We are, collectively, talking about families; true stories of people like myself, who are struggling to get by, crushed by debt, no health coverage, no savings, nothing, NO HELP. REAL LIFE.

Maybe you've not had to deal with real life. Maybe you've been lucky and not been stricken by real tragedy in your life like some of us and had to realize that there is NO HELP for you. And certainly not lately from our current administration- they’ve done everything they can to ENSURE there’s no help for people like us. Again, you are lucky- realize it for what it is and don't assume- as Duckman says- that it's just guaranteed that it's supposed to be that way.

We talk, again, about real families and REAL PEOPLE who just can't seem to make it with three jobs and as many mouths to feed. YOU- on the other hand- invariably talk about Lexus’s and SUV's and beach houses in retirement...

People dream about this, but they do not count on it nor do they even for a moment THINK that their government is going to provide it for them- they only HOPE to sustain themselves the way they lived before retirement and hope not to be a burden to their children and grandchildren.

My own grandmother has told me this innumerable times. Fortunately, she came from a very wealthy family who HAD money and HAD beach houses, but she did not retire to one and NEVER owned a Lexus. She was fortunate, but the REALITY IS that the family fortune that existed for her comfort in retirement- not for passing on to the rest of the family- has been eroded by our recent economic REALITY and what was once AT THE TIME considered “smart, insured investment opportunities” by my very rich great grandfather are reduced to something we hope will sustain her.

Again, there is no guarantee. (Oh, except for our current SS system that is: lets hope you don’t “go Enron” with your investments and have to rely on it someday, K?) Guess what? Today, these investments are not worth 1/10th of their initial worth because the market changes! You of all people know this and you must also realize that THIS IS NOT REALITY!!! At least for the average American. Do you not realize this?!?!? Do YOU live in a beach house? Do YOU drive a Lexus?!?!?!? Guaranteed that 99% of us here don't either, so these ridiculous arguments mean NOTHTING to us- just like they don't to 99% of America. Your arguments just don't hold water when held up to REALITY.

I mean, dude, does that even make sense to you??? If not, I guess I'm wasting my fine typing abilities... But seriously, think about it for a minute: families struggling vs. Lexus’s and beach houses... Is there really a comparison? Really? I don't think so.

But no, just everybody save 10% from their youth in the S & P index fund and everyone is fine: PROBLEM SOLVED!! I’m sure my Great Grandfather Drury had similar sentiments… I hope for my grandmother’s sake- and my grandchildren’s sake for that matter, that you and he are right. I for one will fight to keep the best in this country alive, thank you very muck- I mean MUCH, much… (~8

Phidipides, I haven't talked to an advisor yet but I will need plenty of undergrad classes in speech pathology to go along with the ones I took as an art student. I don't think my technical design courses will count. I was just presuming I'd need the BA to get into the masters program. Thanks for the information, gives me good questions to ask.

Duckman GR,

No Guarantee's in life...are you kidding me?

I'll give you two: DEATH and TAXES.

thanks, Marty, for your slapdown of muckdog.

I hesitated to comment to muck's arrogance, as I believe he is young, has no children, no dependent parents, has never been sick or injured, and has never been divorced.

I lost all of my IRA's & 401Ks in a child custody battle.

Yup - had to sell them all off, so I could pay lawyers.

And it wasn't a "poor choice."

Thank you Kaleefornian for the religious input. I wish we'd see more discussion of the Fundamentalist "submission" to paternalistic figures and how it plays a role in their blind allegience to Bush$Co.

Women submit to their husbands, women and men submit to a government which states it is submitting to God's Will.

My pleasure maybell- glad I could get it out in a coherent message...!! LOL!

Unfortunately, I think Mucky ole boy has moved on from this thread, either that or has nothing further to say on the matter. Hmmmmmmmm... Interesting isn't it?? (~8

I am not afraid of of your muck slingging and put downs of of the medical health care in the US. Just keep taking all those perscription drugs and let the drug companies get richer. By the way their is a drug to mellow you out. Oh perhaps it is to expensive and or your Insurance does not cover it. ( I UNDERSTAND ) Just to let you know I am in an industry that is sensitive to the environment in a sustainable way (Timber Industry), and believe business is business. It is my goal to have all mecical care 100% tax deductable and available to EVERYONE guarenteed issue, with a cap on the bogus law suites and workers comp fraud ( whoops this is the monies that support the liberals ) just like housing Interest. Only then will we get AFFORDABLE health care.
Thank you for the forum

Health Happiness & Long Life

Ron Dybas