You know, in lots of ways, she and John Ashcroft were natural allies.

Whatever happened to the anti-porn movement, anyway? Probably too much money in it for the big cable concerns.

I have to agree. Apart from the normal respect I pay to someone who departs this life for the next (whatever that is), Andrea Dworkin and her co-inquisitioner Catherine MacKinnon were boils on the butt of humanity. They took rape, a real monstrosity, and used it as a stick to beat anyone who dared to have a penis without apologizing for it. In the South, when someone is visibly off-kilter above the neck we say "That boy's not right." Andrea Dworkin wasn't right.

Can someone please explain to me why we Lefties are bothering to say nice things about this horrible woman now that she is dead? May McKinnon and the rest soon follow. What'd she die of, anyway? Excessive ugliness? Fat overdose?

At some fanatical point, the loons of the Left and Right meet in some space that can resemble fascism. Of course Andrea was a hardline Zionist too, hey, as long as you're a feminist fascist, why not be a Jewish fascist too? Andrea's insights on the Jews were most instructive. Only men harmed Jews, never women. Men hurt Jews (known as anti-Semitism) for the same reason they hurt women (known as sexism), because.....um......Jews and women are both....um...duh....well, anyway, she wrote a whole waste of a book about this neurotic "subject".

Love the part of this post about her silly gay "man-friend" who informs us that he got liberated from being a masculine guy and got into feminism. It's not surprising he found masculinity so oppressive, as the guy is homosexual! Oh and Andrea was gay too, but lez sex is ok by Andrea, it's just the kind involving penises and vaginas (you know, the "normal" kind) that is so problematic. Well, lots of lesbians are hung up like that, but few of them make careers out of their anti-penisism.

Goodbye and good riddance, and I don't say that often. Nikki Craft soon to follow? ;)

I have to agree with the general feelings of disapproval concerning Andrea Dworkin. Males are bashed enough in this society (check out the ads on TV is you doubt me! The male is almost always the butt of the joke) without having someone Like the late Ms. Dworkin attempting to promote extreme anti-male attitudes in women.

For weeks this country has been focused on a whether or not to allow a woman who has been brain dead for fifteen years (and practically elevated to St. Teri by the far right) and an old man who demonized gays, sheltered pedophile enablers if not pedophiles themselves, dismissed a woman's right to choose motherhood and consigned millions to infection and death from AIDs because condoms are immoral but the hatchets come out for one woman who had the audacity to claim that pornography harms women and should be banned and the knives come out. Some mighty thin skins around here.

She deserves to be honored for making some of us think a bit harder. Nobody was ever made to think by anyone spouting mushy, predigested CW. It easy to listen to and digest because it demands nothing of us. And it is all too often "dead wrong."

I didn't say she was perfect or infallible or even if I agreed with her conclusions and prescriptions. I happen to agree that pornography is mostly harmful but my opinion was formed by a range of voices and investigations and not just on what Dworkin wrote. OTOH, on balance censorship is generally not effective. However, we censor child porn and few here would object to that prohibition -- doesn't stop it from being produced and disseminated; may not even reduce the amount of it that gets seen. The difference is that we agree that minor children cannot give their consent to being sexually objectified and therefore, this is a crime. Sorry so few of you can recognize that the women who grow up and appear in porn are more than likely to have been victims of child abuse and don't choose their work the way the rest of us do or that they don't stop being victimized once they are adults. The abuse rate for women appearing in porn productions is very high. To those consumers of porn, I would merely ask if your pleasure is worth the price those women pay so that you can have it?

pessimist - perhaps I don't watch enough TV, but if white men are finally becoming the primary butt of jokes, I say, it's about time. For decades its been Blacks, Jews, Polacks, dumb blondes and women in general (particularly in off color jokes) -- everybody but white men.

Hey--what makes you think you can come in here and sneer at fat people like they were some species of vermin?

Andrea was a deeply unhappy, combative person. I found her repulsive many times but every time I knew something bad had happened over a period of years for her to get distorted like that. It happened for a reason, not because she felt like it.

She also failed, as of course she was bound to do. There was also a lot of truth and justice in what she was trying to accomplish, she just chose the wrong way, and she didn't get violent about it.

A soul could far, far worse in the tiny amount of time given to us. Many have.

White men have been the butt of the joke ever since the flight attendants got tired of being the sexual bait to get the business class to use the airlines for travel. We've thus been the butt of the joke for 40 years.

Andrea, who? My art education focused on arguments about sexuality, dominance, and violence towards women (and later the reactionary assault towards men in the feminist and post-feminist periods) from John Berger and Susan Sontag.

It's interesting to see all the vicious attacks. Toby seems to be one of the more civilized amongst us today, pessimist.

He sure is! There's hope for that Red State Boy!

I know Andrea was most known for the battle against pornography with Catherine MacKinnon, but I want to mention that she wrote a great novel about the Triangle shirtwaist company fire and the labor movement for women. I am a longtime feminist who didn't side with her in the porn fight. Not because she wasn't right about porn, but because the solutions that she and MacKinnon backed were too extreme and threatening to free speech. She was a passionate person and a good writer. I hadn't heard of her death until I read this post. Thank you.

When she wasn't being a raving, shreiking shrew accusing all men of being rapists because they like to look at naked women, she was okay. Unfortunately, that wasn't often enough. She had some good things to say, but they were often lost in the chaos.

While I eventually came out on the other side of the sex wars, Dworkin's writing played a very important part in my intellectual / political development (such as it is). As a gay kid growing up in El Paso, her writing exposed the political nature of sexual and gender relations. What I had assumed was the natural order of things was revealed as a social construct that served particular interests. This is not to excuse the harm that Dworkin's words and actions have done others. But I do think that it is important to see the various ways in which her work functioned.

The sort of Dworkin quote that really sets me off:

"One of the differences between marriage and prostitution is that in marriage you only have to make a deal with one man," Ms. Dworkin wrote in "Letters From a War Zone" (Dutton, 1989). Marriage, she added, "is a legal license to rape."

'She never hated men'

On romance: "In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

On sexual intercourse: "Intercourse remains a means, or the means, of physiologically making a woman inferior: communicating to her, cell by cell, her own inferior status ... pushing and thrusting until she gives in."

"Women do not make men suffer as much by killing them as a man does by raping a woman."

Yeah, I'd assist her crusade against rape - about as much as an Israeli would assist neo-Nazis. There are less andro-hostile movements working on that worthy task that I would rather help out.

pessimist - are you arguing that no woman marries for money? Let me be the first to tell you that lots of women marry for money and even more would do so in a second if they had the opportunity. Yeah, like Anna Nicole Smith married that really old wealthy man for love. Hate to disillusion you, but everytime you see an older, unattractive wealthy man with a young trophy wife, you would only rarely be wrong wagering that the woman married for money.

It is true that there are more differences between prostitution and marriage than one deal, but distilled to a single postulation, there is an element of truth to her statement. Not to mention that it's shocking and it's the novel and shocking that commands our attention.

Dworkin was never a movement -- she had neither the psychological stability nor personality to be a leader. The anti-porn legislation that she worked on would never have gotten as far as it did without MacKinnon and if it hadn't fit in so well with the agenda of the rightwing moralists. Odd that today Dworkin is reviled by many for that effort while the wingnuts have their man in the WH. That demonstrates how much more effective the right is in grabbing a bias/worldview and crafting it into something that is politically feasible. They junked the censorship legislation and appealed directly on an emotional basis to simply "morality."

Dworkin isn't at the top of the heap of thinkers for feminists. In fact feminists don't use heirarchal structures for much of anything. She was one thinker among many. She advanced our thinking in many ways - Susan Bright touches on this in either the one I linked to or the one she wrote about Dworkin's breakdown that she links to - both of which are excellent reads because they are so balanced.

What I find interesting is the level of vitriol expressed by so many towards Dworkin and her work. JPII was far more toxic to real lives of women and gays than Dworkin could only have dreamed of being towards men. Yet, where is the commensurate fury among women and gays towards JPII?

On romance: "In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

On sexual intercourse: "Intercourse remains a means, or the means, of physiologically making a woman inferior: communicating to her, cell by cell, her own inferior status ... pushing and thrusting until she gives in."

"Women do not make men suffer as much by killing them as a man does by raping a woman."

I have no idea what this lady looks like...but I will have to say that after reading these quotes, she sounds like a fat-ass pig, that could never get a man because she is such a pig. So the only way she could feel good about the fact that no man would ever touch her, is to rip on them constantly.

Just did a google picture search and I was right. What a fat, disgusting women. She actually looks like the Dwarf in Lord of the Rings.

Just did a google picture search and I was right. What a fat, disgusting women. She actually looks like the Dwarf in Lord of the Rings.

Dumbass,

First, you've shown what a class act you are by casting aspersions on the looks of a dead person.
Second, if you follow the link Marie provided you'lll find that she had the same man for over 30 years. I feel sorry for any woman involved with you.

cooker,

Thats fine, but it does not take away from the fact that she was a disgusting pig. I mean really, what the hell did the man of 30+ years have going for him...he had to be blind based on looks, and impotent based on her beliefs of sex.

Come on...deceased or not...lets call a spade a spade.

How can you know what motivates another person? Maybe they really loved each other. Relationships don't last 30+ on sex alone no matter how good it is.

What makes me think I can sneer at fat ppl as if they are some kind of vermin? I don't. Some of my biggest heroes are pretty darn fat and/or ugly. However, if someone doesn't like someone, they will call them any name that is appropriate. As I despise this idiot, cancerous, happily-deceased female, I will attack her for being fat and, just to be a double-jerk, for being ugly too. Why? Just because I hate her guts, that's why.

Oh yah let's troll out all the standard excuses for "Why this person couldn't help being an a-hole". Great. How many times in your life have you met someone who told you that they had a right to be a scumbag for this or that reason? Go to a prison sometime, plenty in there like that. "It's all the fault of my miserable life", wa wa wa.

Marie, do you want me to ask the women I know who like porn whether they object to these women's "objectification" or not? Excuse me? Did someone hold a gun to these women's heads and force them to do porn? They can always get another job, you know.

I know a woman who did nude modeling for a year outside the US and made tons of money. At age 26, this poor single woman now *owns her own home* in an impoverished, deeply sexist, 3rd world nation. She made equivalent of $818,000 over 2 years and she thinks it was a pretty smart move. And she's proud of her pics, too. That move led to some real female empowerment for her!

are you arguing that no woman marries for money?

So lots of women are whores, even married women. Ok, well, at least we have a woman here admitting it. So, why don't you be a good feminista and tell women to quit being such whores and start negotiating with us men as equals, instead of ripping us off by charging us for sex? All a woman's money is for her, and all her man's money is for her, as my sexist male friends say. Hmm, sounds like the poor oppressed female makes out good here?

It is true that there are more differences between prostitution and marriage than one deal, but distilled to a single postulation, there is an element of truth to her statement.

So don't get married, if it only means being a whore? You are sounding precisely like the sexist men I know, who say, "All women are basically whores. Marriage is buying a prositute for years." Isn't that odd, how feministas seem so much like their male sexist counterparts?

JPII was far more toxic to real lives of women and gays than Dworkin could only have dreamed of being towards men. Yet, where is the commensurate fury among women and gays towards JPII?

He was nicer about it. :)

First, you've shown what a class act you are by casting aspersions on the looks of a dead person.

Well, it's not very nice, but some ppl are so awful they deserve it. While I am at it, I will be a triple-scumbag for making fun of Hitler's stupid moustache, which is a sin, according to you, because Fuhrer is dead. If you don't want ppl to rip on you when you die, try being nicer in life. Just a thought!

I mean really, what the hell did the man of 30+ years have going for him...he had to be blind based on looks, and impotent based on her beliefs of sex.

I don't know what was wrong with him. He was supposedly "gay" and Andrea was supposedly "lesbian" but they were "husband and wife" for 30 years. You make sense of that?!

I think it's nasty to rip ppl just for being fat and/or ugly, but if they are wicked to boot, let em have it!

Andrea Dworkin was the most clear-sighted woman I've ever read. She faced the tough ugly painful hard issues head-on; she didn't flinch. She spoke the truth with courage, clarity and eloquence.

I am appalled by the level of bigotry, hatred and ignorance on this site. Yeah, I'm talking about you, Robert Lindsay, and you chickenshits, bigdog and pessimist. Why do y'all overeact so strongly? Protecting your porn? Why are you so obsessed with how she looks? Can't deal intelligently with what she says?

I am appalled by the level of bigotry, hatred and ignorance on this site.

Wa wa wa wa. Report us to the PC Police and have us arrested. Bigotry!? What, now making fun of FAT and UGLY people is some sort of *racism*, like hating Jews, Blacks, or Hispanics?! God you PC-Cops have gone insane.

Yeah, I'm talking about you, Robert Lindsay,

Great. You know, when I read liberals like you, I understand why the Right hates us so much. It all makes sense.

Why do y'all overeact so strongly?

No overreaction. She was an evil bitch, and now she is dead. Good riddance.

Protecting your porn?

Actually, not so much, there are many better reasons to hate this evil femiNAZI. However, I am angry that Andrea condemned my girlfriends who like porn, like I do, sometimes. What a c-t!

Why are you so obsessed with how she looks?

I don't care about how anyone looks. But seeing as I hate this wicked whore anyway, why not get in some cheap shots at her for being a whale of an ugly slag? You realize, of course, that Andrea Dworkin never gave 2 damns about her looks, never made any effort to lose weight (to my knowledge), and cultivated her ugliness and her pigginess as some sort of an anti-beauty statement, like *so many silly lesbians do*. She was an ugly hog in large part due to choice, and I don't have a lot of sympathy there.

Can't deal intelligently with what she says?

Many others already have, so why bother? Her "theory" was such a load of crap that I don't know where to begin. First of all, she lies about pornography, like all the insane anti-porn femiNAZIS. What are we supposed to do, deconstruct her insane rants line by line? Why waste the time?

Let's see: women gets raped and abused by some scumbag guys, so she turns into a deranged man-hater. Later in life, she goes truly insane. Let's try a fake example now: 3 JEWS did terrible things to me as a teen, so now I am going to turn into a friggin NAZI. According to femiNAZI theory, and their *wimp*, mostly-gay "male" hangers-on, that's a perfectly understandable trajectory for me to take, no?

Andrea belongs with the Ted Bundys, the prison inmates, the serial killers, and the rapists who abused her, in certain lower circle of Hell.

Andrea belongs with the Ted Bundys, the prison inmates, the serial killers, and the rapists who abused her, in certain lower circle of Hell.

Jeebus, I didn't care much for Dworkin either, but isn't that statement a tad extreme?

When you write and say stupid things, sometimes telling you about how dumb it really is, just is not enough... Sometimes a little salt in the wound is good for people.

All i'm saying is that she wrote the things she wrote, becasue she was unhappy with herself and wanted others to be miserable with her.

Robert Linday: Did someone hold a gun to these women's heads and force them to do porn? They can always get another job, you know.

No, most, if not all of them, were abused as children, mostly sexually abused. Their psyches/spirits were crushed in ways only they know about -- made it difficult for them to form or maintain postitive relationships with adults and do well in school. As such their employment opportunities are limited further aggravated by their self-medicating with drugs and alcohol.

The only break they got in life was to be born prettier enough that men like you will pay them money to watch them with their clothes off or fuck them. But they don't stop being abused -- their pimps beat them and take most of the money you give them. Most risk their health by contracting STDs or their lives by contracting AIDs.

The fact that you use a term like "femiNazi" tells us a lot about you, including your inability to differentiate the abstract from the actual. Dworkin killed nobody; the Nazis killed millions. So, next time you're getting your kicks looking at porn, remember that woman was once an innocent little girl and a man did sexual things to her for you.

No, most, if not all of them, were abused as children, mostly sexually abused.

Big deal, lots of ppl were, including me (not sexually tho)

Their psyches/spirits were crushed in ways only they know about -- made it difficult for them to form or maintain postitive relationships with adults and do well in school.

Get over it! They need to go get some therapy and get over it. I am so tired of all this "I was abused and now Im screwed for life stuff". If you get abused as a child, you can't do well in school? How did I get a Masters?

As such their employment opportunities are limited further aggravated by their self-medicating with drugs and alcohol.

Just like 1/2 the ppl in this rural California town of mine. Big deal. Most of them are working too.

But they don't stop being abused -- their pimps beat them and take most of the money you give them.

Women in porn have "pimps"? Who are those? I have known some highclass call girl types and I tell you flatout that they had no pimps at all. They were self-employed and most seemed pretty happy. The "pimps" of porn stars and these call girls I knew "took most of their money"? Porn stars have "pimps"?

Most risk their health by contracting STDs or their lives by contracting AIDs.

How many porn stars in US got AIDS? 4 or 5? Don't they have a strict monitoring thing on now? If you don't want to risk STD's, don't do that line of work. It's hard to believe that these women are somehow unemployable!

Dworkin killed nobody; the Nazis killed millions.

Yep David Irving never killed anyone either. She's got a fascist-like extremist authoritarian mindset. Kinda like Irving.

So, next time you're getting your kicks looking at porn, remember that woman was once an innocent little girl and a man did sexual things to her for you.

You mean the porn that my latest girlfriend made? She posed for solo shots for 2 yrs. She's ok. Mostly f-d up from *guilt* from ppl like you and that whore Dworkin who tell her she did something wrong, or acted like a whore, or whatever. And she's still quite innocent too. And pretty well-adjusted psychologically.

Hi Robert Lindsay, bigdog, and pessimist.

Yeah, unfortunate white men, who make more money doing less work that women of color all over the world. Unfortunate white men, who can travel all over the world, fucking kids, especially in Southeast Asia. (Any unkind words for your brothers who do that, boys, or is your venom only for women?)

Unfortunate white men, who get picked on on TV. Ever been pulled into the bushes and had a body part shoved up your ass? Ever had a date make sex the forced, violent ending to a nice evening? Ever had a woman bash you across the room, one who professed to love you, necessitating
your face getting put back together surgically?

You unfortunate white men. Poor dears. Let's all have a pity party for you while you whine over your overflowing cup of privilege. Men
still dominate every economic and political institution in the world, in case you haven't noticed. Oh, but wait, you're the butt of a joke
on TV, so I guess that equals things out, huh?

I hope the human race evolves beyond the truly reprehensible human beings you are. Sad creatures, you three.

Sad, sad, sad.

One question you might want to ponder, between spits of misogynous phlegm onto this site: what does it mean that we live in a country that will pay women more to take off their clothes (for male voyeurs) than to do anything else? I worked at a college for a long time. I knew young poor women who needed to pay for college and not rack up tremendous debt. Stripping was an option for them. But they usually stopped after a few weeks, as it was too dehumanizing. Some things, like human dignity, are worth more than money, after all; not that you three know much about human dignity.

Andrea Dworkin spent over thirty years fighting against sexual violence, and exposing the other commonplace atrocities of sexism (I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but discrimination and violence against women are rampant across the globe); also, in thirteen books, she exposed the violence and injuries of poverty, anti-Semitism, and racism. What are you doing to end injustice? Oh wait, there IS no injustice except that which your self-absorbed minds perceive as effecting YOU.

Grow up, and learn about the real world, little whining white boys. There's a lot of pain and suffering out there that belongs to people
who don't have your kind of genitals or your skin color, that is caused by corporations run by white guys. Are you inspired to criticize them for exploiting the world? Probably not. Your investments might lose money.

How unfortunate to have been born white and male, huh? God, should we start a campaign to raise money to help you guys out? Never mind AIDS
and poverty, racism and misogyny. Clearly the most important thing to you three is how the world treats YOU unfairly.

I just don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight worrying about y'all.

Paul

typo-corrected and revised posting: 10:40pmET 4/25/2005

Hi Robert Lindsay, bigdog, and pessimist.

Yeah, unfortunate white men, who make more money doing less work than women of color all over the world. Unfortunate white men, who can travel all over the world, fucking kids, especially in Southeast Asia. (Any unkind words for your brothers who do that, boys, or is your venom only for women?)

Unfortunate white men, who get picked on on TV. Ever been pulled into the bushes and had a body part shoved up your ass? Ever had a date make sex the forced, violent ending to a nice evening? Ever had a woman bash you across the room, one who professed to love you, necessitating
your face getting put back together surgically?

You unfortunate white men. Poor dears. Let's all have a pity party for you while you whine over your overflowing cup of privilege. Men
still dominate every economic and political institution in the world, in case you haven't noticed. Oh, but wait, you're the butt of a joke
on TV, so I guess that equals things out, huh?

I hope the human race evolves beyond the truly reprehensible human beings you are. Sad creatures, you three.

Sad, sad, sad.

Did it ever occur to you to ask yourselves this question, between spits of your misogynous phlegm: what does it mean that we live in a country that will pay women more to take off their clothes (for male voyeurs) than to do anything else? I worked at a college for many years and knew some young poor women who got jobs at a strip club in order to reduce their post-college debt. But most of them only lasted a few weeks at that job; it was too dehumanizing. Some things, like human dignity, are worth more than money, not that you three would know anything about human dignity.

Andrea Dworkin spent over thirty years fighting against sexual violence, and exposing the other commonplace atrocities of sexism (I hate to burst your delusional bubble, but discrimination and violence against women are rampant across the globe); also, she exposed the violence and injury of poverty, anti-Semitism, and racism. What are you doing to end injustice? Oh wait, there IS no injustice except that which your self-absorbed minds perceive as effecting YOU.

Grow up, and learn about the real world, little whining white boys. There's a lot of pain and suffering out there that belongs to people
who don't have your kind of genitals or your skin color, that is caused by corporations run by white guys. Are you inspired to criticize them for exploiting the world? Probably not. Your investments might lose money.

How unfortunate to have been born white and male, huh? God, should we start a campaign to raise money to help you guys out? Never mind AIDS
and poverty, racism and misogyny. Clearly the most important thing to you three is how the world treats YOU unfairly.

I just don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight worrying about y'all.

Paul

The hatred and contempt and misogyny expressed here for Andrea Dworkin makes sense. When oppression and violation and brutality are so pervasive that they become as familiar and ever-present as dust, living beings who are trying to survive have to develop defenses, armor, adaptations in order to make hellish and damaging contexts into a comprehensible and navigable world. In simpler terms, it's too painful, too terrorizing, to face that everything that's wrong all the time --- so we find ways not to know.

Sometimes some people who have been severely abused (like Andrea Dworkin) find that survival, healing, and true resistance require a different way of relating to the world. And if that particular person (in this case, Andrea Dworkin) is very strong, and quite clear-minded, and capable of healing --- then she becomes someone who learns to survive by telling as much truth as she can comprehend and hold and express --- to be a person who says "this world is destroying too much of me, nearly killing me, and i can only truly survive if i fight and name it, even when the things hurting me are much bigger or stronger than me". She did an incredible job of it, by the way.
When someone becomes the sort of survivor who can do that work, there is always, always, always a vicious backlash.

To many victims and survivors of violence, a person like Andrea is experienced as a gift, a protector, real oxygen in an incredibly unbreathable, unbearable environment. This has been true for me, as a survivor of childhood torture and child pornography. To be the person who fights so hard, and so passionately for some of the most abused, torn people alive (or destroyed or dead), is a truly honorable, powerful, love-worthy way to live. And I love, honor, and respect Andrea for herself and the way she lived her life.

But to people who are trying to survive or to navigate this world by accepting its premises, by finding ways to normalize, or even profit or somehow benefit from its cruelties and exploitations --- the work and words and presence of Andrea Dworkin are unsurprisingly going to be experienced as outrageous, intolerable, terrifying, or alien --- and a trigger for all of the venom we've learned to misdirect away from the institutions that truly harm and oppress, towards those who step out of line. The words and work and knowledge of people like Andrea Dworkin tear at the fabric of the world many people have learned to wrap around them, to wear, to drape on the walls, to sleep inside, pretending not to know or not to care or be responsible for accepting the fact that the cloth is made from sweatshop labor, from robbed bones, the raped, the bleeding, the displaced, the violated dead.

I am a little sad, and a little angry, and not at all shocked at reading the utter crap that's been spilled here. Thankfully I'm not really shaken --- because I've seen it before in many contexts directed at many good people, and I know that Andrea survived worse and was able to keep writing and speaking and knowing and connecting with the many friends and loved ones and survivors who cherished and needed her. I know that she died in her sleep, peacefully, in the arms of her spouse and partner of 30 years, who was a good man, who loved her very much. I believe she knew that she was very loved, by more than a few people. I know that though her death is a tremendous social, political, spiritual and personal loss for many and for the world--- people will continue to read and find and be nourished in her words. I know that the spirit and strength and clarity that Andrea was able to manifest are uniquely hers, but also not isolated, and similar strengths have always been present in the spirits of many activists, writers, survivors, artists, and justice-hungry people --- without whom our species would not have survived this long, and without whom we would not have any remaining chance at avoiding species annihilation.

I know Andrea was very powerful and very good, and though 'winning and losing' are terms more appropriate to football than to the work of an activist/feminist/writer--- I know that the continuing noise and vitriol are evidence of the fact that she "won", that despite and because of all the atrocity she witnessed and experienced, she was influential and creative and brave enough to write books that provoke and outrage even the more comfortable and self-righteous misogynists, as well as providing solace and refuge and comfort to many of us who need to hope that we can still fight for a better world.

b'shalom,
beth

It doesn't matter that the gun to the head is not visible.

Yes, prostitution is complicated, some women and children in it will tell you it's all their own choice and they only wish their job would be acceptable to the rest of society and then everything else would work itself out.

What needs to be recognized, is that prostitution harms the prostitute. This is what Andrea was trying to show.

Once a woman or a child's body parts are given a publicly traded status, rape follows. Just as any commodity, it can be stolen by those who feel entitled to it.

I have known people in the biz, and been one too briefly, and the most shallow thing you can say is "they seem happy".

The most important moral value, imho, is curiosity. To be interested enough to empathize, to listen, to watch and see what people's faces tell you. What people really mean to say.

To be in a line of work that takes away your sexual boundaries, that labels you the lowest of the low (by the primary consumers, this is a selling point), that exchanges the sacredness of your being for a price, kills your soul.

It does.

Prostitutes become hard, they stop feeling. They can't feel the real harm.

Andrea helped me to understand that truth.

I have been working against sexual violence, including prostitution, for almost a decade now. Dworkin spoke eloquently and quite accurately about what men have said and done to the women I have served all these years. I currently run a Johns School for men arrested for prostituting women. We are participating in a documentary on men who use prostituted women and the men in my last class were invited to speak about their experiences with prostitution. We were all quite surprised to hear Dworkin's ideas threading throughout his comments. This man has been prostituting women for three decades now, so he has extensive experience with the sex industry. I urge everyone on this listserve to read Dworkin with an open mind, and with an understanding that she truly loved women, loved freedom, and was truly one of the most intelligent American writers of our time. I hope to carry on her legacy in my work, and educate others about this national treasure of ours. It was an honor to be alive in the time of Andrea Dworkin. She was beautiful to me, and did well living up to her name (Courage).
Patricia Barrera, Director of Community Education, The Lola Greene Baldwin Foundation for Recovery

Marie: You're right to point out that Dworkin killed nobody and the Nazis killed millions. We shouldn't need reminding but whatever people believe about Dworkin's words those facts remain.

However, the following comment seriously made me wince:

"...So, next time you're getting your kicks looking at porn, remember that woman was once an innocent little girl and a man did sexual things to her for you."

This statement seems to be founded on the assumptions that women start out innocent and are automatically scathed by sex, even if they consent to it. I personally find that insulting and would also say it glorifies innocence in a way that is actually very damaging to those who may be most vulnerable to being abused. Keeping people in the dark for the sake of their innocence is, in my view, abusive in itself.

Are you saying that all women who participate in pornography were "innocent little girls" until "a man did sexual things" to them for the pleasure of a viewer? If so, that's a ludicrous claim. Or are you saying that having sex at all was the start of the slippery slope for these women? Again, that's a pretty big generalisation.

Robert Lindsay: It's certainly very interesting that you refer to "that whore Dworkin" telling your girlfriend that "she acted like a whore."

Using the word "whore" as an insult suggests to me that, for all your progressive posturing, you are actually a pretty old-fashioned conservative sort. I mean, what's wrong with being a whore? You make all these statements about how it's okay to let rip with the personal insults if a person was horrible anyway but I'd argue that using sexual words like whore and slag as slurs actually does our cause no favours at all. You simply come across as narrow-minded. I'm not arguing for censorship (in fact, I'm an anti censorship activist), I'm just saying that you clearly appear to support your girlfriend's career and yet your insults do you no justice. Why lead people to think you're a misogynistic jerk when the crux of your point is actually very valid? Is the "no-holds-barred" impact really worth it?

Robert Lindsay:

1. It's not surprising he (John Stoltenberg) found masculinity so oppressive, as the guy is homosexual!

So would you say that finding traditional ideas about masculinity oppressive automatically makes a man homosexual? Are you saying there aren’t gay men who positively embrace the stuff thought of as “masculine” (both literally and figuratively)? Are you saying it must follow that a man who challenges the stereotypes of his gender will fancy men and not women?

2. Oh and Andrea was gay too, but lez sex is ok by Andrea, it's just the kind involving penises and vaginas (you know, the "normal" kind) that is so problematic. Well, lots of lesbians are hung up like that, but few of them make careers out of their anti-penisism

So, to clarify, you’d say that a lesbian not wanting to have sex involving penises and vaginas is “hung up”? And what exactly is “anti-penisism”? Levelling this claim at Dworkin is one thing but can we really say that about a simple sexual preference? How is not digging conventional fucking a hang-up? Intercourse is not compulsory.

3. So don't get married, if it only means being a whore? You are sounding precisely like the sexist men I know, who say, "All women are basically whores. Marriage is buying a prositute for years." Isn't that odd, how feministas seem so much like their male sexist counterparts?

Pretty much agreed with the comments on marriage, though you do generalise about what feminists (what’s with the feminista thing?) apparently all believe.

4. You realize, of course, that Andrea Dworkin never gave 2 damns about her looks, never made any effort to lose weight (to my knowledge), and cultivated her ugliness and her pigginess as some sort of an anti-beauty statement, like *so many silly lesbians do*. She was an ugly hog in large part due to choice, and I don't have a lot of sympathy there.

Um, basic question I know, but what, exactly, is wrong with looking “like an ugly hog due to choice”? And why should she have made an effort to lose weight? There’s no NHS in the US right? And “silly lesbians” making “anti-beauty statements” indeed! Where exactly are you coming from there?
5. Let's see: women gets raped and abused by some scumbag guys, so she turns into a deranged man-hater. Later in life, she goes truly insane. Let's try a fake example now: 3 JEWS did terrible things to me as a teen, so now I am going to turn into a friggin NAZI. According to femiNAZI theory, and their *wimp*, mostly-gay "male" hangers-on, that's a perfectly understandable trajectory for me to take, no?
This is a good point but what’s with the *wimp*, mostly gay and “male” insult? Are “wimps” and “gays” not Real Men?
6. You mean the porn that my latest girlfriend made? She posed for solo shots for 2 yrs. She's ok. Mostly f-d up from *guilt* from ppl like you and that whore Dworkin who tell her she did something wrong, or acted like a whore, or whatever. And she's still quite innocent too. And pretty well-adjusted psychologically.

Yet another woman empowered by porn who you happen to know! Just kidding. It doesn’t really matter if I think I smell a touch of bullshit coming from your direction. The fact is that you’re right, for all the potential for exploitation, there *are* people who choose to work in the sex industry and, more to the point, they deserve the same level of respect as everyone else (something which goes without saying but sadly doesn’t always happen).

One more question: How is your girlfriend “still quite innocent”? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so it’s better if I get your particular definition of the word. Do you think she’d be happy that you thought of her in that way? I reckon it makes her sound kind of ditzy. Does that do her justice? Then again, maybe you just meant she hasn’t experienced abuse or become jaded (which could be a fair point).

I know re-posting for nit-picky reasons makes some people really mad but my last message had some spacing problems (plus the italics didn't take) so here it is again...

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Robert Lindsay:

1. "It's not surprising he (John Stoltenberg) found masculinity so oppressive, as the guy is homosexual!"

So would you say that finding traditional ideas about masculinity oppressive automatically makes a man homosexual? Are you saying there aren’t gay men who positively embrace the stuff thought of as “masculine” (both literally and figuratively)? Are you saying it must follow that a man who challenges the stereotypes of his gender will fancy men and not women?

2. "Oh and Andrea was gay too, but lez sex is ok by Andrea, it's just the kind involving penises and vaginas (you know, the "normal" kind) that is so problematic. Well, lots of lesbians are hung up like that, but few of them make careers out of their anti-penisism."

So, to clarify, you’d say that a lesbian not wanting to have sex involving penises and vaginas is “hung up”? And what exactly is “anti-penisism”? Levelling this claim at Dworkin is one thing but can we really say that about a simple sexual preference? How is not digging conventional fucking a hang-up? Intercourse is not compulsory.

3. "So don't get married, if it only means being a whore? You are sounding precisely like the sexist men I know, who say, "All women are basically whores. Marriage is buying a prositute for years." Isn't that odd, how feministas seem so much like their male sexist counterparts?"

Pretty much agreed with the comments on marriage, though you do generalise about what feminists (what’s with the feminista thing?) apparently all believe.

4. "You realize, of course, that Andrea Dworkin never gave 2 damns about her looks, never made any effort to lose weight (to my knowledge), and cultivated her ugliness and her pigginess as some sort of an anti-beauty statement, like *so many silly lesbians do*. She was an ugly hog in large part due to choice, and I don't have a lot of sympathy there."

Um, basic question I know, but what, exactly, is wrong with looking “like an ugly hog due to choice”? And why should she have made an effort to lose weight? There’s no NHS in the US right? And “silly lesbians” making “anti-beauty statements” indeed! Where exactly are you coming from there?

5. "Let's see: women gets raped and abused by some scumbag guys, so she turns into a deranged man-hater. Later in life, she goes truly insane. Let's try a fake example now: 3 JEWS did terrible things to me as a teen, so now I am going to turn into a friggin NAZI. According to femiNAZI theory, and their *wimp*, mostly-gay "male" hangers-on, that's a perfectly understandable trajectory for me to take, no?"

This is a good point but what’s with the *wimp*, mostly gay and “male” insult? Are “wimps” and “gays” not Real Men?

6. "You mean the porn that my latest girlfriend made? She posed for solo shots for 2 yrs. She's ok. Mostly f-d up from *guilt* from ppl like you and that whore Dworkin who tell her she did something wrong, or acted like a whore, or whatever. And she's still quite innocent too. And pretty well-adjusted psychologically."

Yet another woman empowered by porn who you happen to know! Just kidding. It doesn’t really matter if I think I smell a touch of bullshit coming from your direction. The fact is that you’re right, for all the potential for exploitation, there *are* people who choose to work in the sex industry and, more to the point, they deserve the same level of respect as everyone else (something which goes without saying but sadly doesn’t always happen).

One more question: How is your girlfriend “still quite innocent”? I don’t want to put words in your mouth so it’s better if I get your particular definition of the word. Do you think she’d be happy that you thought of her in that way? I reckon it makes her sound kind of ditzy. Does that do her justice? Then again, maybe you just meant she hasn’t experienced abuse or become jaded (which could be a fair point).

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