It ain't about voting "along party lines," it's about voting along decency lines. You call yourself a Democrat, you act like a Democrat. Otherwise join the rabble across the aisle.

I like what MoveOn has done.

If the party itself is not ethical enough to get its leadership to do the right thing then we have to do it for them.

I'd love to hear Hoyer try to justify this now. I heard an interview with him before MoveOn did this and it didn't wash in my opinion. The money he's taking from the industry will pale compared to what he's going to lose now.

You know, I really disagree with this move by MoveOn. I think it's hamhanded, doesn't do anything to advance the progressive agenda, makes enemies between institutions at the exact time they need to be learning to work together, and gives the GOP an opening.

I don't know what MoveOn thinks it will accomplish with attacking Hoyer (a liberal from a fairly liberal state), but from my point of view it looks to be a waste of money and a burning of bridges before they're crossed.

Just to follow up on my previous post: moving the Democratic Party to the left needs to be a long-term goal. Winning elections needs to be a short-term one.

Whe the right wing first began to put their VRWC efforts into motion, the first thing they did was build bridges between the various institutions they needed to win elections, and they focused on getting Republicans into power. Pushing right-wing goals was done more gradually, over time.

I don't like the bankruptcy bill, even though I think some of the online commentary on it has been rather extreme (no, it DOESN'T outlaw bankruptcy). But in any case, it's a Republican bill, and can be rescinded with new legislation when we get Democrats into power. Of course, that won't happen if we're too busy beating up on anyone who doesn't have a spotless record.

Jonathan,

I have to disagree completely!

The first thing they did was build those institutions, not build bridges between existing ones. And that made for tight fisted control.

The Democrats are moving all over the place, they waver on every freakin issue. MoveOn's message isn't about the bankruptcy bill, it's about getting the party in line.

Every time they wander off and get bush lovin' they get screwed. Work with the thugs, they screw you. I challenge you to name a Democrat who has worked with the gop and not gotten screwed, or at least used with no gain for their issue. Ted and NCLB? Nope. Sen. Cleland? Nope again. And zell is no Democrat.

The Democrats have got to stop being enablers for the bush cabal. Talking to them now, when they're on the ropes on Soc Sec makes no sense. Remember, these are not normal political policy fights. In fact, they;re devoid of policy. It's strictly about power. And Demcoratic votes with the gop gives them the power, not the Dems.

They are not attacking Steny Hoyer. This is no different then gingrich strong arming a bunch of greedy selfish republicans to sign that god damned contract on America. It was a party building unity effort, utterly bereft of substance beyond that. And that's what MoveOn is doing. Whether Democrats like it or not. Better they do it now, instead of later in the middle of the Congressional campaign, don't you think?

Duckman,
That may be MoveOn's intent (not sure), but I think what they'll end up doing is 1) sowing animosity between Democratic leaders and the grassroots and 2) giving Karl Rove even more ammunition to claim the Democrats are fractured and without principles.

While I agree that this is hardly a catastrophe at this point, nor something that will do any real damage to Hoyer politically, I think it's a bad move when it comes to building a lasting coalition and network of institutions that we can use to 1) win elections and 2) push for progressive legislation with a reasonable chance of success, in that order.

To clarify a little,
I see what MoveOn's trying to do as basically win a marathon before doing the training necessary. Our current crop of Democrats will NEVER be as liberal as we'd like, simply because they're a product of a long time wherein liberals basically stayed away from the Democratic Party. Now, out of self-preservation, they're finally seeing they can't stay out of the game. But things won't change overnight.

Can we help to move the current crop of Democrats to the left by pushing them on issues and giving them cover at the grassroots level? You bet, and that's something that, hopefully, a functioning VLWC will make more and more viable. But the bottom line is, we can't afford to wait for a new batch of progressive Democrats to come along before we start winning elections.

We have to work with what we have, and recognize that some problems are more long-term ones.

Jonathan,
I really appreciate your concerns but the party has to change. One of the worst things people say about the Democratic party is that they dont know what the party stands for. When so-called "centrists" sell out to Bush, the media says "bi-partisan". Frankly, I understand why people get frustrated with Dems. Blue-dog Dems like John Breaux sound just like Republicans to most of the public. When "centrists" spend so much time looking for compromise and agreement, you can't figure out if they believe in anything except staying in office. Seriously, the public knows when you have no core values or beliefs. The party faithful have the right to choose their candidates in the primaries. The incumbent must EARN re-nomination. Violating core principles must have consequences. Since they are incumbents, placating them will only keep their sorry asses in office for decades. Make them sweat.

Reward good behavior and punish bad behavior.

It is important, however, that we flush out and identify Democrats who are centrist or right-wing. Maybe not an attack during this time, when Democrats are already on the defensive, but certainly if and when balance is regained in the White House and Congress. Individuals like Hoyer or Lieberman need to see that the party is interested in progressive movement.

Marvin,
I absolutely agree that the Party has to change. The problem I see is that the tactics MoveOn is using are doing more harm than good.

The smartest thing Reagan ever did for the GOP was to develop his "11th Commandment": Thou shalt not attack other Republicans.

Over the top? Maybe. Granted, Democrats aren't Republicans. For one thing, we respect dissent. Still, it was an extremely smart move, politically: the public face of the GOP should not attack itself, and thereby it appears the GOP is a united front with principles.

Right wingers don't push their views by attacking Republicans (well, the vast majority of the time, and when they do, they usually regret it). They push their views by owning the Party's message generation and dissemination apparatus.

Attacking other Democrats was stupid and counterproductive when the DLC attacked MoveOn. And in my opinion it's stupid with MoveOn attacking Hoyer. I'd rather have a Democrat that votes wrong half the time than one who hurts the entire party's chances directly by attacking other Democrats (e.g. Lieberman). The former I can forgive, because right now, we literally don't have a choice if we want to stop the hemorrhaging. The latter brings party infighting, disagreement and lack of consensus to the front and center.

I'll wager most people never heard the details about who voted for that damnable bankruptcy bill, and most probably never will. But they'll hear that Democrats are attacking Democrats.

Attacking Democrats who don’t vote on party lines is a “very Republican thing to do.

Pretty ironic that the very same guys who have lectured us for years to start acting more like Republicans now lament that fact that we have taken their advice.

Good for MoveOn. I think it's far past time we took back the party from the DINOs. This is a good step in the right direction.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I applaud Move On. Let Hoyer be the example of what Democrats can expect from those of us in the Party. Many of us are not interested in appeasement, compromise, or reaching across to the Republicans in friendly back slapping. The line has been drawn in the sand, so to speak, and it is either you are with us or you are against us, to use a Bushism. Let's see how fast the Democrats, who have been betraying us, take notice of Move Ons campaign against Hoyer. They need to know that we are serious and betraying any values this Party has stood for is tantamount to treason, and will not be tolerated. If they want to vote with the Republicans, then they can become a Republican, because there is no room in our Party for them.

Jonathon said:"I see what MoveOn's trying to do as basically win a marathon before doing the training necessary."

Completely wrong. MoveOn is helping to build a party discipline which is associated with Democratic ideals. The Democratic Party has to abandon the idea of getting members reelected for its own sake. The Party has to stand for something. Americans will no longer support politicians who are all over the place. They want someone whom they know what they stand for.

Jonathon said:"Right wingers don't push their views by attacking Republicans (well, the vast majority of the time, and when they do, they usually regret it)."

Completely wrong again! Have you been paying attention? Why do you think Republicans vote in virtual lock step? Do they all think alike? No, they do not. When they cross the party line, they are attacked. Get bitten enough, and you learn where the line is, and your pain memory prevents you from approaching it again.

Just exactly how do you expect Democrats to counter Republicans, when they can't even stand in line? They have to be shown where the line is. Carrot and stick. When they can fight as a team, they'll be ready to take on the Republicans. Right now, they couldn't defeat jello pudding.

Paul,
As I noted above, Republicans vote in virtual lockstep because of the rightwing message machine. It's the tool they have and use to get elected. They don't have to attack each other to keep each other in line.

As for the idea that "The Democratic Party has to abandon the idea of getting members reelected for its own sake.", I don't know how else the progressive agenda will get enacted besides getting people elected and winning a majority. For that matter, a lot of the "Democrats attacking Democrats" right now seems to be an outgrowth of the frustration liberals feel at not being in the majority. Losing even more seats isn't going to fix that.

Jonathan: it's people like you who are the porblem with the Democratic party. We are seen s as unprincipled and wishy-washy exactly because so many Democrats don't stand for anything but their own re-election. I applaud MoveOn. Democrats need to start doing THE RIGHT THING consistently. Eventually people will notice the contrast with the greedfreak Republicans and we will win elections. The DLC compromise strategy has been an abject failure and is not the kind of strategy that led the Republicans to power.

Get a clue.

I'm relieved to see MoveOn stepping forward to chastize a legislator who does not step up for Democratic values. How else can we differentiate Democrats from Republicans?

I keep hoping that Democrats will be brave enough to stop showing up, altogether, should the 'nuclear option' eliminate the filibuster -- a week-long strike, perhaps -- to show how the Republican leadership has left the Democrats without a voice.